brown7373

Thanks to the shop who last rotated my tires and way over tightened my wheels, I now have two broken studs when I removed the wheels for inspection and replacing a bad bearing. Anyone have a source for a 1972 Cutlass factory front disks?


The first picture is my broken stud and the second silver stud is what I was told is the replacement, which has a larger spline area. Anyone used this stud before, or have a source for ones like the originals?

Fun71

I have always used the ones from the local auto parts store on any of my vehicles that needed replacements.
This one from NAPA appears to have the same length splines as your original.

PART# NOE 6411106

brown7373

My local NAPA could only order them in lots of 10. The splines in the NAPA pictured one looks a lot more course to me. Maybe the ridges would fit in every other grove. I wound up ordering a few from National Parts Depot. I'll let you know if they are right when they arrive.


I know our cars are quite old and parts stores sell mostly for newer cars, but there are still many, maybe millions of various GM cars still on the road that use this bolt.

RROLDSX

If you break a stud you should always replace all five. I did not believe this until I spent 3 or 4 rounds replacing studs. It got quite concerning when I took a corner and heard two pop at the same time. Luckily I was blocks from home.

brown7373

Why replace all 5? Is it because driving on fewer than 5 stresses the others? One broke when I removed the over tightened nut, and another had the end break off at the shop, but there was enough remaining to still install a nut. The car never drove with less that 5 studs and 5 nuts.

joe_padavano

It depends on why the stud broke. If you are CERTAIN that only one was overtightened, replace only the one. If it's likely that ALL were overtightened and only one broke (so far), replace them all. If one broke because they were loose and banging around inside the wheel, replace them all.

Allan R

That's odd. I replaced all mine when I rebuilt the front end on my car. NAPA was more than willing to sell me the studs individually. It's really easy to change them out, especially with impact driver. I made a special teflon bushing to use against the nut when sucking them through the rotor hole. Worked great.

Professur

Once you arrive at the conclusion that the mechanic who worked on the car was an ape, you have to arrive at the conclusion that he wasn't selectively stupid. This is one reason why I'm willing to pay extra to stand watch over anyone working on my car.

Allan R

And that's the elephant in the room. It's also why I do all my own maintenance - because I know it'll be done right + it doesn't bother me to avoid being raped by repair shops. Eg: I had 3 quotes to change the plugs in my 07 Sonata. It involves taking off the entire intake plenum to reach the back 3 plugs (sort of like the blue oval models). The lowest quote was 440.00, the highest from the dealer @ 733.00. Total cost of iridium plugs is only 60 bucks for this car. Labor is free, plus I also replaced the EGR which is in an ungodly location, as well as R&R the TB and clean MAF sensor. Not that I don't trust some of the mechanics nowadays, but heck - I just don't, and it's darn inconvenient to have to give them the car back for a day so they can warranty their mistake. I think most people don't tackle repairs nowadays because they don't think they have the skills, knowledge or ability. Maybe that's true.

brown7373 - is this in any way related to the damaged knuckle?

MDchanic

The Gorilla, actually.

- Eric

joe_padavano

^^^THIS!!!

This is also why I even bought my own tire changer and balancer.

MDchanic

Grrrrrr....




Well, at least the guy who does my tires and alignments lets me go in and kibbitz his mechanics.


- Eric

joe_padavano

Check Craigslist. I got a rim clamp tire machine for $350 and an ancient Hunter 700 balancer for $300. I see similar deals often as shops upgrade. The used tools won't be pretty, but they are functional.

No, this isn't cheaper than having a shop do it, but for me, it's about convenience. I usually need to mount or dismount tires on a weekend. Of course, the "know it's done right" factor also comes into play. And I don't have to listen to the "nitrogen-filled" BS nor the "we can't just sell you two tires" scam.

MDchanic

Yeah, the guy I use is good with all that stuff - he's seen my cars, knows I know what I'm doing, and doesn't try to BS me, plus he's open Saturdays (poor guy seems to work about 12 hours a day, 6 days a week - he's a hustler), though my own schedule ignores weekends, so that doesn't matter. I also tip his guys well, so they're happy to let me look over their shoulders.

Even so, the convenience and confidence have no substitutes.

I guess I'll have to create a CL search...

- Eric

brown7373

All 20 of my nuts were way over tightened. They broke only one stud, and I broke a 2nd, trying to remove the wheel. So I think I will replace them all. I don't see how an over tightened wheel could result in a failed bearing. Do you?


This shop has always been very good. It is locally owned. Before they expanded, the used floor jacks and hand torque wrenches. They didn't even have a lift for tires installs or rotation. Then they expanded, and have several location and lots of high end equipment and about 20 bay in their main location. And of course, too many shlubs in the back who at best, speak broken English.


I wrote a letter to the owner and am interested in how he replies. I suggested his shop supervision is lacking, as well as training and understanding.


I do most of my own work, but frankly, a LOF and tire rotation is a lot of grunt work that anyone with an 80 IQ should be able to do.

joe_padavano

Clearly not...

Why isn't it the shop's responsibility to pay for new studs?

Octania

Same guy tightened all of 'em, presumably with an impact...


unless you are willing to gamble that the others are not stretched/ cracked already... put in all new studs.


Technician should be schooled, and monitored for a while. Folks tend to not adopt new practices, but do what they have always done, even after being shown a better way. That would be the shop mgr's job.

joe_padavano

Octania

Joe, do you trust the science behind those sticks?

I have not looked into it, but it seems to me that they would interact with the tool used, and therefore a Shipwreck Tools impact would not produce the same result as a Snap-on impact.

joe_padavano

Physics: It's not just a good idea, it's the LAW!

The torque sticks are intended to elastically twist. The intent is that when you reach the designated torque, the impact wrench just keeps twisting the stick as opposed to tighening the nut further. Impact wrenches have a limited angular rotation on each hit, so the springback of the stick prevents further tightening. Yeah, some wrenches have more rotation per hit than others, and no, I don't know how calibration is done across different brands, but I do know that I've had a similar torque limiting effect when using a very long extension to loosen stuck bolts (think down pipe to exhaust manifold bolts, for example).

MDchanic

{{smirk}}



Ah, I hadn't thought about this being the reason why these gizmos work.



Yeah. In my case I would describe it as more of an impulse-damping effect - when I try to apply a sharp force, the long extension twists and transmits the force over a longer period of time, thus damping the blow.

- Eric

joe_padavano

No, it's actually torque-limiting. The torsional wrap-up of the stick (or long extension) absorbs the torque from the impact wrench. If the impact wrench were continuously rotating, the sticks wouldn't work - once you wrapped them up, the torque would again be transmitted to the nut (until the stick broke). Since the impact wrench has discrete impacts, so long as the angular deflection of the wrench is less than the wrap-up of the stick, the nut will not tighten further.

MDchanic

Yes, I get that now. Just never thought about it before. The action of the impact wrench is the key factor.

One of those blatantly obvious brilliant inventions.

Thanks.

- Eric

brown7373

I think the torque tube are accurate enough if the correct one is used. A wheel that is supposed to be 80, would probably be fine with 70-90, but mine were more like 150. They weren't even CLOSE! I about hurt myself getting them loosened I think my 72 Chevy pickup calls for 65-85, or some similar range for wheel torque.

Allan R

Just a regular torque wrench works fine. In the old days before I had one I did it by feel with a good old fashioned tire iron. When it was tight, it was tight. No jumping on the wrench to tighten it further. This is a similar process to tightening spark plugs and heck, even VC bolts. Even a moron knows when it's being overtightened so I'm inclined to think the "Ape" (thx Eric) who tightened them had his own agenda in mind.

One of our cars calls for 103 ft/lbs on the wheel nuts. HUH?? I only use 85-90 and it's fine. This is the same car that ate 6 sets of rotors and pads in less than 80k miles. 3 sets replaced under warranty only lasted 7k miles each. No, the brakes weren't dragging either. Was it the torque of the wheel nuts? IDK, more likely it was defective front calipers which I figured out (not the dealer techs) and replaced. So far no problems.

I get that you don't want the wheel nuts too loose, but there should be some common sense/good judgement involved with this too.

joe_padavano

Of course it does. My point is that most shops can't be bothered to use one, thus the torque sticks, which are at least somewhat "gorilla proof"... ASSUMING one selects the correct one to use.

Allan R

I know what you mean. Uh uh uh, there you go using that A word again...
This seems to fit the bill quite nicely.

Professur

Agenda? No, just some numbnut simian who used the same socket and impact wrench to put them back on as he did to take them off. Happens often when shop monkeys have to buy their own tools, and wheel jock is the entry level, low pay slot. Torque wrenches and torque sticks cost money, y'know. And that shiny new Snap On tool box is gonna take a while to pay off before he can start filling it with 'fluff' tools that don't make any more money than the basic ones.

RetroRanger

semi related dealer mech rant my wifes car has a fiber cover that fits under the car and it must be removed for oil changes. its held on by 6 small hex head screws that thread into a plastic retainer in the car "frame" (i assume so they never sieze into a j nut). Doncha know after a two years of complimentary dealer oil changes every one of those was so stripped out they could be pulled out by hand. My assumption is a cordless impact was used to tighten to spin and stripped every one. a simple oil change couldnt be completed correctly ...sad

brown7373

UPDATE: The owner that I wrote to got my letter this morning, and immediately called me. He is rightfully pissed that my car was abused. He said I had his personal cell number, and to submit a bill to him for any expense I incurred because of this.


He was adamant, that the gun is ONLY supposed to be used to snug up the nuts, and a hand torque wrench is supposed to be used to tighten them. He agreed it was partly a training issue and partly a supervision issue, and that he was going to go into the shop and correct it. He also said his non English speaking workers were actually better than a lot of his others, maybe because they valued their job. Too many others just don't care about their job, or have any pride in their work. He said that a 44 year old car should be given EXTRA respect in his shop, and he would get to the bottom of the problem and correct it. He even thanked me for bringing all this to his attention.


I have used this shop for years, because they have always respected my cars and properly serviced them. Assuming the problem is corrected, I have no reason to go elsewhere.

joe_padavano

This is exactly how I do it, but you need to dial back the torque setting on the impact to ensure that you don't accidentally overtorque the nuts.

Allan R

Damage control after the fact, but really nice to hear. Are you going to take the car back to have the rotor nuts replaced or are you doing it on your own?

brown7373

I'm going to give him the bill for the studs and new nuts, but I will replace them myself. I don't want to drive it on 3 lugs and I sure don't want to flat bed it. Changing them is not really a big deal.


Yes, damage control after the fact. It would be nice to think that a business could always control their employees, 100% of the time. It would be nice if we could all be right, all of the time and never make a mistake. But realistically, if they take ownership of the problem and reimburse me, then I will give them the opportunity to correct things.


I remember back in the 60s, a lot of shops had signs saying, "we are not responsible for damage to any custom wheels", and they included factory Rally wheels as custom wheels. That only lasted a short while. I got in an argument with one shop manager about how my GTO with Rally II wheels was NOT a custom, but a factory installed wheel.

Allan R

If you're doing all the work yourself - kudos! You're also replacing the rear drum bolts? That will be a bit more work. Might want to rethink having them do the work based on that, especially if, as you said, they really are a good shop.

brown7373

Can I knock out the rears without removing the axle? Or will that possibly damage the axle bearing?

MDchanic

I never had a problem doing it.

- Eric

brown7373

I would assume the rears would tap out about the same as the fronts, which just took a few medium taps with a hammer.

MDchanic

Yeah, just hit the ends with a BFH against a large pin punch.

It's never a bad idea to screw nuts onto the ends, flush, to prevent mushrooming.

- Eric

joe_padavano

The Oldsmobile axle doesn't use C-clips, so removing the axle shaft is pretty easy. Just undo the four bolts holding the axle shaft bearing retainer to the housing and the shaft comes out. Usually you need a slide hammer due to friction, but I usually simply slip the brake drum back over the studs, open end out, and loosely thread three lug nuts on. The drum works just fine as a slide hammer. A couple of hits and the axle shaft is in your hands.

Hint: have a drip pan under the end of the housing...

Allan R

The 'Ape' approach, but it works well.

I like this better. It will give much more room to work with the bolts when you remove them and re-install them. I would also replace the axle seals when you reinstall the axle. Other bonus is you can also clean up the axle flange while it's out. IDK how much differential fluid will drain out the axle tube, so keep in mind you'd have to top up the diff after it's done.







Axles ready to re-install





Flanges and plates cleaned while studs out.





plastic bushing and washers used to keep paint from scuffing when bolt is sucked through using impact wrench.