Pinion seal leaking
#1
Pinion seal leaking
Well... I finished my brakes and they are 100% - I replaced the front inner/outer bearings and seal - the passenger outer bearing was in very very bad shape - which made me a little scared for the rest of the bearings in the car - 72 convertible - the rear pinion seal is leaking - I’ve read a lot of the posts in this section - It is a 10 bolt - 8.5in - bolt in axle set up - id guess 28 spline and a mild gear ratio (guessing 2.53:1 or what ever as it doesn’t **** and get with a 455) (clutch is slipping but that’s another day) won’t know until I pull the cover - was able to get the plug out with little problem - the diff took almost 2 quarts of gear lube before it started leaking out the hole - the axle seals are not leaking on either end - just the pinion seal - few newbie questions - are the bearings in the rear end packed like front end bearings or does the gear oil lube them? From what I’ve read the axle bearings are pressed in so I’d need a shop with a press to help - how many bearings total in this rear end? (Both axle ends and pinion - are there inners?) I have never messed with a differential before - some friends are telling me I don’t want too - long story short - how big of a job is the pinion seal? (Wondering if I can do it) IF I ran it in the past low on gear lube what should I be looking for / worried about in the rear end - I’m a little hard of hearing and I have a four speed M-21 (I believe) so I hear that Muncie whine when decelerating but haven’t noticed rear end noise (again hard to hear with no top and just wind noise (just recently got the top)
#2
The bearings are lubed by the diff gear oil.
There are two bearings on the pinion, two bearings on the carrier, and two bearings on the axle shafts (one on each).
Here are part numbers that I archived when I rebuilt the rear in my car:
There are two bearings on the pinion, two bearings on the carrier, and two bearings on the axle shafts (one on each).
Here are part numbers that I archived when I rebuilt the rear in my car:
Axle Bearing: Timken Set9
Axle Seal: 712146
Carrier Bearing / Race: LM501349 / LM501314
Pinion Head Bearing / Race: M802048 / M802011
Pinion Tail Bearing / Race: M88048 / M88010
Pinion Seal: 2043
Axle Seal: 712146
Carrier Bearing / Race: LM501349 / LM501314
Pinion Head Bearing / Race: M802048 / M802011
Pinion Tail Bearing / Race: M88048 / M88010
Pinion Seal: 2043
Last edited by Fun71; July 8th, 2018 at 09:30 AM.
#3
The bearings are lubed by the diff gear oil.
There are two bearings on the pinion, two bearings on the carrier, and two bearings on the axle shafts (one on each).
Here are part numbers that I archived when I rebuilt the rear in my car:
There are two bearings on the pinion, two bearings on the carrier, and two bearings on the axle shafts (one on each).
Here are part numbers that I archived when I rebuilt the rear in my car:
Axle Bearing: Timken Set9
Axle Seal: 712146
Carrier Bearing / Race: LM501349 / LM501314
Pinion Head Bearing / Race: M802048 / M802011
Pinion Tail Bearing / Race: M88048 / M88010
Pinion Seal: 2043
Axle Seal: 712146
Carrier Bearing / Race: LM501349 / LM501314
Pinion Head Bearing / Race: M802048 / M802011
Pinion Tail Bearing / Race: M88048 / M88010
Pinion Seal: 2043
#4
If your just doing the seal, mark the nut with white touchup paint or equivalent and the area next to it. Remove the nut and count the turns (precisely) it takes from where you broke it loose to all the way off. Remove the pinion, remove the old seal and reinstall the new one. Reinstall the nut with the exact amount of turns it took to remove it and line up the mark on the nut to the mark that was adjacent to it. I usually give it an extra 1/16" turn. Put the drive shaft back on and your done.
#5
If your just doing the seal, mark the nut with white touchup paint or equivalent and the area next to it. Remove the nut and count the turns (precisely) it takes from where you broke it loose to all the way off. Remove the pinion, remove the old seal and reinstall the new one. Reinstall the nut with the exact amount of turns it took to remove it and line up the mark on the nut to the mark that was adjacent to it. I usually give it an extra 1/16" turn. Put the drive shaft back on and your done.
#9
Inspect the pinion for wear too..
There is a good chance the seal has worn a grove in it. They make a pinion and seal repair kit that is sold together.
Also eat your Wheaties. That pinion nut is no joke. Hold the pinion with a pipe wrench wedged against the floor and get a 3/4" breaker bar and a cheater pipe to break the nut loose.
As Eric said, just tighten the nut to the point it was at before, but I would suggest taking a center punch and scoring the pinion shaft threads right behind the nut to keep it from backing out.
There is a good chance the seal has worn a grove in it. They make a pinion and seal repair kit that is sold together.
Also eat your Wheaties. That pinion nut is no joke. Hold the pinion with a pipe wrench wedged against the floor and get a 3/4" breaker bar and a cheater pipe to break the nut loose.
As Eric said, just tighten the nut to the point it was at before, but I would suggest taking a center punch and scoring the pinion shaft threads right behind the nut to keep it from backing out.
Last edited by Sampson; July 15th, 2018 at 12:46 PM.
#10
Inspect the pinion for wear too..
There is a good chance the seal has worn a grove in it. They make a pinion and seal repair kit that is sold together.
Also eat your Wheaties. That pinion nut is no joke. Hold the pinion with a pipe wrench wedged against the floor and get a 3/4" breaker bar and a cheater pipe to break the nut loose.
As Eric said, just tighten the nut to the point it was at before, but I would suggest taking a center punch and scoring the pinion shaft threads right behind the nut to keep it from backing out.
There is a good chance the seal has worn a grove in it. They make a pinion and seal repair kit that is sold together.
Also eat your Wheaties. That pinion nut is no joke. Hold the pinion with a pipe wrench wedged against the floor and get a 3/4" breaker bar and a cheater pipe to break the nut loose.
As Eric said, just tighten the nut to the point it was at before, but I would suggest taking a center punch and scoring the pinion shaft threads right behind the nut to keep it from backing out.
#11
Ok - I blasted everything with pb blaster - cleaned it up - got the u joint caps loose - and before I pulled it I decided to try and shake the yoke (I realize that probably should have been step 1 in the process) that attaches to the pinion - there is play in it - up down - side to side - there should be zero play correct? Rebuild axle housing / differential time?
#12
Ok - I blasted everything with pb blaster - cleaned it up - got the u joint caps loose - and before I pulled it I decided to try and shake the yoke (I realize that probably should have been step 1 in the process) that attaches to the pinion - there is play in it - up down - side to side - there should be zero play correct? Rebuild axle housing / differential time?
I am not an expert by any means. I hope others with more experience will chime in.
#13
Considering that the pinion bearings must be pre-loaded, there should be NO play at all. Any play indicates a lack of bearing pre-load, and movement of the pinion WRT the ring-gear could precipitate damage to it. Like Sampson advised, remove the cover and look for metal in the fluid. If not much, then you may have caught it early enough to not caused any damage to the gears and carrier bearings, but you'll still need to remove the carrier and pinion to fix the bearing situation there. Once you get that far, you might as well replace all bearings and seals and reset the pinion pre-load w/ a fresh crush sleeve (and maybe swap gears to give it more pep, add a posi if it doesn't have one).
If everything on the inside looks good, you MIGHT just be able to get away with tightening the pinion nut to remove all play in the pinion (after removing the yoke to replace the pinion seal) and restore some bearing pre-load. But you'll want to keep an eye/ear out for new leaks or noises.
If everything on the inside looks good, you MIGHT just be able to get away with tightening the pinion nut to remove all play in the pinion (after removing the yoke to replace the pinion seal) and restore some bearing pre-load. But you'll want to keep an eye/ear out for new leaks or noises.
Last edited by JohnnyBs68S; July 20th, 2018 at 11:00 AM.
#14
Considering that the pinion bearings must be pre-loaded, there should be NO play at all. Any play indicates a lack of bearing pre-load, and movement of the pinion WRT the ring-gear could precipitate damage to it. Like Sampson advised, remove the cover and look for metal in the fluid. If not much, then you may have caught it early enough to not caused any damage to the gears and carrier bearings, but you'll still need to remove the carrier and pinion to fix the bearing situation there. Once you get that far, you might as well replace all bearings and seals and reset the pinion pre-load w/ a fresh crush sleeve (and maybe swap gears to give it more pep, add a posi if it doesn't have one).
If everything on the inside looks good, you MIGHT just be able to get away with tightening the pinion nut to remove all play in the pinion (after removing the yoke to replace the pinion seal) and restore some bearing pre-load. But you'll want to keep an eye/ear out for new leaks or noises.
If everything on the inside looks good, you MIGHT just be able to get away with tightening the pinion nut to remove all play in the pinion (after removing the yoke to replace the pinion seal) and restore some bearing pre-load. But you'll want to keep an eye/ear out for new leaks or noises.
#16
#17
Use this calculator, very accurate with a lock up torque converter auto or a manual transmission car. Otherwise add 250 to 300 rpm for an old school auto. You gain 200 rpm on the highway going from a 3.08 to a 3.23 gear.
http://tech.oldsgmail.com/axle_RPM.php
http://tech.oldsgmail.com/axle_RPM.php
#18
10 bolt 8.5 issues pinion seal leak
Most likely the reason your pinion seal leaked was because the nut backed off the pinion causing the up down play in the pinion and making the seal fail. NOW depending on how long you drove this car this way will determine the damage you may or may not have cause and will most certainly cause you vibration.
THIS IS A VERY COMMON PROBLEM WITH MUSCLE CARS WHERE GUYS ARE DOING BURN OUT OR TRYING TO DO HARD LAUNCHES ALL THE TIME. It is ok if you like to drive you car like this...just have to stake that nut in place so you do not back off the nut when driving like a mad man...lol.
Idea here would be to tighten the the nut so there is NO play refill your diff and go for a quick short drive and see how everything sounds. IF it leaks like crazy do not do the drive.... BUT it sure seems like you were driving on it for some time anyway so I do not think it should be leaking that bad. evaluate the and see if vibration is gone or if things even sound worse. Might help you make that decision about spending more money at this time if you do not need to. Jim Mitschke
J D Race
THIS IS A VERY COMMON PROBLEM WITH MUSCLE CARS WHERE GUYS ARE DOING BURN OUT OR TRYING TO DO HARD LAUNCHES ALL THE TIME. It is ok if you like to drive you car like this...just have to stake that nut in place so you do not back off the nut when driving like a mad man...lol.
Idea here would be to tighten the the nut so there is NO play refill your diff and go for a quick short drive and see how everything sounds. IF it leaks like crazy do not do the drive.... BUT it sure seems like you were driving on it for some time anyway so I do not think it should be leaking that bad. evaluate the and see if vibration is gone or if things even sound worse. Might help you make that decision about spending more money at this time if you do not need to. Jim Mitschke
J D Race
#19
Most likely the reason your pinion seal leaked was because the nut backed off the pinion causing the up down play in the pinion and making the seal fail. NOW depending on how long you drove this car this way will determine the damage you may or may not have cause and will most certainly cause you vibration.
THIS IS A VERY COMMON PROBLEM WITH MUSCLE CARS WHERE GUYS ARE DOING BURN OUT OR TRYING TO DO HARD LAUNCHES ALL THE TIME. It is ok if you like to drive you car like this...just have to stake that nut in place so you do not back off the nut when driving like a mad man...lol.
Idea here would be to tighten the the nut so there is NO play refill your diff and go for a quick short drive and see how everything sounds. IF it leaks like crazy do not do the drive.... BUT it sure seems like you were driving on it for some time anyway so I do not think it should be leaking that bad. evaluate the and see if vibration is gone or if things even sound worse. Might help you make that decision about spending more money at this time if you do not need to. Jim Mitschke
J D Race
THIS IS A VERY COMMON PROBLEM WITH MUSCLE CARS WHERE GUYS ARE DOING BURN OUT OR TRYING TO DO HARD LAUNCHES ALL THE TIME. It is ok if you like to drive you car like this...just have to stake that nut in place so you do not back off the nut when driving like a mad man...lol.
Idea here would be to tighten the the nut so there is NO play refill your diff and go for a quick short drive and see how everything sounds. IF it leaks like crazy do not do the drive.... BUT it sure seems like you were driving on it for some time anyway so I do not think it should be leaking that bad. evaluate the and see if vibration is gone or if things even sound worse. Might help you make that decision about spending more money at this time if you do not need to. Jim Mitschke
J D Race
#24
i was in communication with Jim about this but I think he might be busy - I don’t want to spam him - This Posi is the closest I’ve found so far - amazon says it doesn’t fit my car but Jegs says it does (72-74 cutlass either base or s / 5.7 and 7.5) - I doubt amazon knows - only thing that seems screwy is it says “GM” Not olds specific - and as far as I know my rear end was 71 to 72 only - so nervous that they might think it’s c clip axle as it also says it fits many chevys - I just posted a question to jegs about it - just figured I’d try here as well - I’ll post what they say - thanks!
#25
Jegs, Amazon and several others may not be right. Be careful. Monzaz is "THE" authority on differentials ! He sometimes comments on week ends. Send a PM to Monzaz as Oldcutlass suggested. Be patient.
#26
#29
I have found it is easier to re-install the rear with the lower control arms attached first. Seems easier to lift the front end of the control arm into the frame bracket than to lift the rear to get the rear control arm into the axle bracket.
#30
thanks for the tip - I will try that
#31
posi unit rebuild kits gears etc.
I always give discounts to the Classic olds site members so yes we can try to work out the best deal i can get you.
You also must remember that I am a worker...lol. NOT a phone jockey that sells parts so you will get alot of tech help here which sometimes offsets what you can sometimes get cheaper else where in the big world of CHEAP parts. Jim
J D Race
You also must remember that I am a worker...lol. NOT a phone jockey that sells parts so you will get alot of tech help here which sometimes offsets what you can sometimes get cheaper else where in the big world of CHEAP parts. Jim
J D Race
#32
I always give discounts to the Classic olds site members so yes we can try to work out the best deal i can get you.
You also must remember that I am a worker...lol. NOT a phone jockey that sells parts so you will get alot of tech help here which sometimes offsets what you can sometimes get cheaper else where in the big world of CHEAP parts. Jim
J D Race
You also must remember that I am a worker...lol. NOT a phone jockey that sells parts so you will get alot of tech help here which sometimes offsets what you can sometimes get cheaper else where in the big world of CHEAP parts. Jim
J D Race
#33
Never mind Jim - I found your answer in another thread - mineral based fluid with limited slip additive - I have original gears but added the Eaton Posi - I’m going to treat it like new gears with a few runs to heat it up and let it cool completely off and change the fluid just to be safe - thanks again! Joe R.
#36
just red to throw a little color in there - also it makes it feel “cleaned up” to me - all black feels like it could still be rusty greasy in the shadows - can barely see it - car will go metallic grey in the big picture - I have the aluminum diff cover that will go on it after the initial break in and I change the gear oil - as far as the nick - it wasn’t bad so I’m not sweating it - i had to hammer pretty good to get the new bushing in - so if it was gonna create a problem I figure it would at that point *shrug*
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