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Maybe it's time for some reflection. In the original post, the OP state, "On delivery, drove it to the top shop, new top installed. Started and ran okay, I guess. It was only two miles. Picked it up and drove it around some, then home. Idles like crap, but it starts and runs. "
Changed the carb, pulled the distributor got rid of the points, and now has trouble getting it to start. (We can get back to the idle issue later.) I'm not saying there are not other problems here, maybe maybe not. Assuming we can rule out the carb, starter fluid. Why not look at the rotor cap and wire position again. Coil wire to distributor good? Start with the three variable that were changed, first. Are there any backfires? Sometimes it is the simple things that get us, no matter how much experience we have.
One quick thing you can check for is to spray some carb cleaner around the intake ports of the intake manifold where they meet the heads and if the engine idles smooth, you got a vacuum leak. It wouldn't be the first Olds engine I've seen needing an intake gasket.
Okay here's an update for those of you keeping score at home: (lol)
Replaced the wires today. Checked everything else again.
* Verified I had 12.53 volts to the ignition "on"
* Verified voltage to the coil never went below 10 volts while cranking. (10.4 was the lowest, on the bench this fired as low as 8)
* Hotwired the + side of the coil to the battery, disconnected the wire harness from same. This would mean the ignition system has uninterrupted, reliable voltage at all times - ruling out anything in the car's electrical system
* Attached a ground clamp to the distributor housing (just in case it wasn't getting a ground - not sure how as the engine has the negative cable directly to it)
Observed:
Spark is basically non existent. In ten seconds of cranking, I got it to spark maybe once. This was tested by pulling a plug lead, stuffing a plug in it, and attaching a grounding clamp to the plug housing. Two different plugs and a timing light consistently showed no spark.
I am thinking there's something intermittent with the coil; just because it worked on the bench doesn't mean something didn't loosen up inside, maybe it doesn't like being on it's side, or maybe putting it in the bracket is squeezing it and causing some internal short. All of these components were verified on the bench, but something squirrley is happening when it's in the car.
I am now focused on the lack of spark - because regardless of improper valve timing being possible (as suggested by one member) it would still spark. The rotor turns steadily and smoothly during cranking - so if the ignition timing setting or valve timing were wrong, it would still make spark, just not at the right time.
So, what would cause verified good ignition components to not operate when installed in the vehicle is now the puzzle... thoughts? Anyone? This one has me totally stymied.
If you have power (jumpered from the bat+) connected to coil + and the distributor is connected to coil- with no tach and the ignition module is triggering properly, I would say get another coil that one is toast.
Looking at your engine pic in your first post. It looks like your #1 wire is on the wrong tower. I cannot tell for sure. Here are a couple of pics from the CSM.
Spark is basically non existent. In ten seconds of cranking, I got it to spark maybe once. This was tested by pulling a plug lead, stuffing a plug in it, and attaching a grounding clamp to the plug housing. Two different plugs and a timing light consistently showed no spark.
I would suspect the electronic ignition trigger first and foremost.
Swap back in a set of points and a condenser and see what happens.
I would suspect the electronic ignition trigger first and foremost.
I agree. I would think a dead coil would be dead all of the time and not give intermittent spark, whereas a faulty electronic module could fire intermittently. I work with electronics for a living and have realized that they are evil things.
I have to agree I am suspecting the coil and or the module. The reason we discredited both as a likely cause is they both worked flawlessly on the bench, even under various loads and voltages. The intermittent nature of this whole thing makes it even tougher to pin down.
My distributor rebuilder is going to quickly do up a points distributor for testing purposes, and I am tempted to just go grab a new coil as they aren't too expensive.
Wore out 50 year old quadrajunk and by trying to remedy the problem every way but dealing with the #1 problem the whole engine is now a mess.
Did you read the entire thread? The OP clearly stated that the QJ was rebuilt by a reputable professional. Not a guarantee but should rule the carb out.
Have you verified the timing set? If the engine had not been running for a while before you purchased it the cam gear may have dried out while sitting then disintegrated upon running again. See how much slop is in the timing when turning the engine forward and backward with a wrench. more than 3~4 degrees is bad and may explain the vacuum deviation. Just a thought.
It doesn't respond to starting fluid either. It's a spark issue at the very least. The quadrajunk thing really was a pretty useless comment; especially when they are extremely reliable when in proper order - moreover you referenced "but dealing with the #1 problem" yet never specified what you believe it to be...
I am also intrigued by the sloppy timing chain suggestion, I will check on that as the distributor cap is off and the 1 1/8" socket and breaker bar are already handy from verifying TDC.. lol
It rained here for like 4 straight days, I will poke around with it tomorrow... Thanks for everything so far guys!
I would take off the distributor cap and get an 1 1/8 socket and turn the engine by the balancer bolt the opposite way it runs and see if the distributor rotor moves right away or takes it's time moving. If the rotor is slow to move the chain is most likely junk.
So, after a visit to my rebuilder on yesterday, I picked up a "test" distributor with points, another coil, cap and rotor. Ran home to install these, one at a time. New cap and rotor all swapped into the converted electronic distributor, no spark. Must be the Crane igniter.
At this time, I verified the timing chain has zero slop by observing the rotor movement while turning the balancer back and forth.
Swap in the "test" distributor with points, the car fires right up! Set initial at about 10 degrees. Cut it off and restarted it a few times, no issues. I think wow, we have it finally figured out!!! So off I go back to my guy to return the "test" distributor (it has the wrong curve, meant for a 71 455 2bbl, lots more advance) and put points in my correct one and be done. Seems like a plan, and easy plan. I drive the car about 15 miles and it ran quite nicely, but I didn't get on it too hard based on the wrong timing curve being in it.
Shut the car off, go to restart it (ALL the same parts it drove here on still) NO SPARK. Now the car is stuck at his house.
What the absolute F***!!
Verified using proper test equipment:
* Proper voltage to the coil during cranking and run position
* "Hotwired" the coil to eliminate the car's electrical entirely
* Verified 9kv output at the coil during cranking (plenty)
* Verified the points are opening and closing, triggering properly.
* Tried swapping yet another cap and rotor
* Wires are new and ohm out to the correct values
* Plugs are new and not fouled
Bear in mind all of these things (2 coils, 3 caps, 2 rotors, 2 distributors) work PERFECTLY on the bench, and the distributor machine.
Still no spark. Something in this car is killing spark between the coil and the plugs, and the only thing in between is the cap and rotor, and we've tried several. So, my vote at this point is to eliminate the old ignition in full and do an HEI, toss a switched IGN 12v lead at it and be done with it. If it ran so well for 15 miles, we can conclude there's nothing wrong with the engine itself and or fuel delivery. Quadrajet is working just fine..
Now the kicker: The distributor won't come out. It comes up freely about 5/8' and then stops, as if its running into something solid metal. My thinking is the roll pin on the distributor gear somehow worked itself halfway out after 15 miles ?! What else could it possibly be??
I'm a science minded guy but I think this thing has a curse on it. Seriously. UGH....
Is the engine ground cable tight? Is the ground strap between the engine and the chassis tight? The electricity has to have a solid complete circuit for the ignition to keep working.
Is the engine ground cable tight? Is the ground strap between the engine and the chassis tight? The electricity has to have a solid complete circuit for the ignition to keep working.
It is verified, and we even grounded the distributor individually to rule that out too.
The distributor may be stuck on the oil pump shaft which is why it won't come out all the way.
You may have gotten a bad condenser, the black wire or the ground wire is bad inside the distributor. Loose wire at the coil -. Grease got into the points. Not much to prevent spark with a points system.
The distributor may be stuck on the oil pump shaft which is why it won't come out all the way.
You may have gotten a bad condenser, the black wire or the ground wire is bad inside the distributor. Loose wire at the coil -. Grease got into the points. Not much to prevent spark with a points system.
Did you swap the coil?
Oy - how do I get it "unstuck"?
We have used three different coils. The black ground lead to the distributor from the coil is also new, and we tried grounding the distributor housing. If it wasn't grounded, the points wouldn't trigger the coil, they are the "switched ground" to turn the coil on and off, no?
The point set and condenser were fine driving there, and the points are new; additionally we verified via a test light between coil NEG and ground they are triggering properly, as well as a timing light on the coil wire.
It's just stupid, right????
Last edited by Chris98Buffalo; April 24th, 2017 at 07:15 AM.
To get it out you'll need to pry it up until it pops out. Just keep working at it. I've had brand new points and condensers crap out on me. Yes, your issue is quite perplexing, it will be something stupid though.
To get it out you'll need to pry it up until it pops out. Just keep working at it. I've had brand new points and condensers crap out on me. Yes, your issue is quite perplexing, it will be something stupid though.
I was going to pry on it, but we were afraid of damage to the oil pump and shaft, causing a pan removal which would be a nightmare.
You sure we are good just pulling up on it?
I was thinking of trying to use a puller of some sort. As this is a "test" distributor, we aren't too worried if we ruin it; its the rest of the engine im worried about.
There is no puller that will pull it up straight. Been there and done that. Damaging the distributor base is a possibility, done that too. The shaft will probably come out with the distributor.
There is no puller that will pull it up straight. Been there and done that. Damaging the distributor base is a possibility, done that too. The shaft will probably come out with the distributor.
So, how the heck do you get the shaft back in if that happens???
I seriously don't want to/can't drop the pan in a friend's driveway...
Its just a hex shaped straight shaft that slips into the oil pump on one and and the distributor on the other, looks like this. Getting it back in requires something to grip it on top and slip it back into the oil pump. There normally is a clip that prevents this attached but they eventually break off and fall into the pan.
I think I will see if a new shaft is available locally (Napa) and just have one on hand...then yank the test distributor out and go HEI... this has really been an *** kicker.
If your running it with a bypassed resister wire your going to fry the points Look at the points that were in the car when it last ran and see if their pitted or burned. Abad condenser will crap out a motor also
If your running it with a bypassed resister wire your going to fry the points Look at the points that were in the car when it last ran and see if their pitted or burned. Abad condenser will crap out a motor also
Points are brand new as is condenser. These are the same ones that it drove just fine with. The hotwire test was only done briefly to rule out the car's electricals.
Last edited by Chris98Buffalo; April 24th, 2017 at 09:11 AM.
I'm leaning HEI route, my rebuilder wants to clean up a few grounds just because it's easy; but if that fails then HEI it is.
I don't think HEI will solve the problem. I think and would bet it's something in the car itself such as a bad switch ,broken wire or a bad connection. Also Olds is famous for grounds.
April 19th, 2017, 12:21 PM
