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Ping and no power rebuilt 455, aluminum heads and intake from mondello

Ping and no power rebuilt 455, aluminum heads and intake from mondello

Old February 2nd, 2017, 01:34 PM
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Ping and no power rebuilt 455, aluminum heads and intake from mondello

Hello, my name is rob, i ordered a 455 engine from mondello and after install i can not get the pining to go away, the vehicle is very low on power at w.o.t. Pings very bad will not even spin a tire.

Everything is brand new as follows:

455 block bored .030 over forged flat top pistons
aluminum intake
750 cfm demon carb
aluminum heads 2.075 x 1.690 valves
cam jm 20/22 mondello in. 496, ex. 520, running duration 300/310
gross cam lift at .050 intake 300 / 224
exhaust 310/234
lobe centers 112
valve lash hyd.
Hei ignition. Unplugged vacuum advance due to too much timing.

After install, i was told to adjust the total timing at 32 deg. The vehicle pings horribly and immediately jumps to 60 deg making it worse, the only way to get the vehicle to start correctly is retard the timing to total 28 deg, and base at about 15 deg.
Rechecked cam timing, all marks are centered. I'm very concerned about the cam being to big or compression being too high for 92 octain fuel? This is very discouraging since i just spent so much money to have a drop in motor i could run on pumped gas..just looking for some feedback on easiest solutions to fix this problem..and mondello said the motor should be at least 500 horsepower but i cant even get the rear tires to spin? Pings like crazy and now power.

Please help! Thank you!
Rob.
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Old February 2nd, 2017, 02:26 PM
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Welcome, I moved your thread to the performance section. Post a proper introduction in the Newvie section with some pictures of your car when you get a chance.

Can you give a detailed description on how your adjusting your timing?
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Old February 2nd, 2017, 04:24 PM
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Call the builder first

did you remove the distributor to put the motor in the car? If so verify top dead center. Don't run it more than you have to. Pinging is not good. Do all the checking you can, compression, wire routing, distributor module, coil etc.
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Old February 2nd, 2017, 04:34 PM
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did you call the builder and ask whats up ?

mondello in california or mondello in tenn ?
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Old February 2nd, 2017, 04:36 PM
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Mondello is a **** show these days. What is the actual compression? What stall torque converter and rear gears?
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Old February 2nd, 2017, 04:55 PM
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Stall and gears have nothing to do with how the motor runs. The op said it is pinging and unable to get it to stop pinging. Once the motor runs correctly then it is time to discuss stall and gears.JMHO
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Old February 2nd, 2017, 05:14 PM
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If its Mondello in California document ALL communication with him and contact the Better Business Bureau if you need to. Call your credit card company and explain his reputation asap. They will help.
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Old February 2nd, 2017, 05:56 PM
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Sorry for your experience with the bad Mondello in CA.
They are notorious for building engines with compression ratios that exceed the capability of your local fuel. It's the only way they can make any decent hp. Plus that cam is too small for the comp they seem to like to run.
My guess is nothing was degreed or double checked. Fix your advance curve then do a comp check and see what your cranking compression is and go from there.
Again sorry for your luck.
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Old February 2nd, 2017, 07:16 PM
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Just in case you can't get satisfaction with Mondello

If Mondello leaves you screwed cutlassefi has a good reputation on this forum. In the future I hope to have him build one for me.
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Old February 2nd, 2017, 07:17 PM
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I'm not an engine building expert but I have read a lot and have an understanding of how things work.


Here are my observations:
Originally Posted by RW442 View Post
455 block bored .030 over forged flat top pistons

aluminum heads 2.075 x 1.690 valves
Flat top pistons (if they truly are flat tops and not small dishes) and aluminum heads (assume Edelbrock with 77 cc chambers) means right around 11:1 compression ratio (also assuming .025" piston-to-deck clearance).

Originally Posted by RW442 View Post
cam jm 20/22
That cam specs are:
0.496, 0.520 lift, 300/310 advertised duration , 224, 234 duration @ .050" lift

I think that is way, way too small of a cam for 11:1 compression. It is creating a LOT of cylinder pressure that requires HIGH OCTANE fuel to prevent pinging.

I could be wrong, though, as I am not an experienced engine builder. Others may have more insight.

Last edited by Fun71; February 2nd, 2017 at 07:19 PM.
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Old February 2nd, 2017, 07:33 PM
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Originally Posted by wr1970 View Post
Stall and gears have nothing to do with how the motor runs. The op said it is pinging and unable to get it to stop pinging. Once the motor runs correctly then it is time to discuss stall and gears.JMHO
Having a low stall and 2 something gears doesn't help and may be part of the no tire spin. If you can't run 28 total, you have issues. I assume you are running premium? As Mark said, see what your cranking compression is. I had use top end cleaner to eliminate my pinging.
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Old February 2nd, 2017, 09:25 PM
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Ease up and take your time. You may be very close to magic time, and it suddenly runs good and like you hoped. Flat tops are generally 11 to 1, and that size cam might not be enough duration, even for aluminum heads at under 2,000ft elevation. But there could be something else wrong such as the camshaft timing screwed up on the timing chain/gear. Then an extreme lean or fuel condition, or to much ignition timing could cause this.

Do NOT drive it until it sounds normal at idle parked.
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Old February 3rd, 2017, 05:53 AM
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Ping

Thanks for all the feedback, I agree with compression problem. I checked cam gear position it's centered and not degreed..Next step was compression check, if the cranking compression pressures are too high does anyone know the easiest solution for this condition? I wanted to keep decent vacuum for brakes and wanted to run on pumped gas.. Should I change cam? Thicker head gasket to reduce compression? This is so disappointing after having higher expectations..It was mondello in California, I didn't know there was one in Tenn. Also..Ended up with a noise on the passenger side of engine which turned out to be a broken intake valve spring to top it off with 100 miles on new engine...Just not sure what to do? Mondello lynn says send engine back and they'll fix and send back..To California! And I've already experienced their craftsmanship..Oil leaks! Coolant leak from overporteded intake which they appoxied, now this. So I think I would rather fix myself after spending $10k on motor and having these issues. I also put a 200r4 o/d trans 2500 stall converter which I'm having some issues with shift points regardless of TV adjustments which I think may be due to high rear gears 3:42 shifting at 2500 rpm, but car speed is too fast to get rpms up to shift soon enough? However, I need to get ping issue fixed first.
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Old February 3rd, 2017, 06:08 AM
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Ping

Already double checked dist. Adjusting timing with vacuum gauge and degreeable timing light. Best vacuum 15" @ 32 starts to pull hard for a sec. Then runs like crap pings horribly cranks poorly, no vacuum advance connected to HEI..Back off dist to mid 20 10" vacuum vehicle starts and idles fine just no power..As I mentioned, I'm also concerned about too much compression? Just not sure of easiest solution? Since everything is new? Thanks again for the great feedback.
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Old February 3rd, 2017, 06:44 AM
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Originally Posted by RW442 View Post
Already double checked dist. Adjusting timing with vacuum gauge and degreeable timing light. Best vacuum 15" @ 32 starts to pull hard for a sec. Then runs like crap pings horribly cranks poorly, no vacuum advance connected to HEI..Back off dist to mid 20 10" vacuum vehicle starts and idles fine just no power..As I mentioned, I'm also concerned about too much compression? Just not sure of easiest solution? Since everything is new? Thanks again for the great feedback.
Do the compression check and go from there. And yes a thicker head gasket would be the easiest fix.
However beyond that a cam change may be in order as well. Let us know what you find out. Unfortunately this is typical of Mondello in Paso Robles.
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Old February 3rd, 2017, 07:25 AM
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Originally Posted by RW442 View Post
It was mondello in California, I didn't know there was one in Tenn.
Lynn Welfinger, an old friend of Joe Mondello, bought the Mondello business and runs it in Paso Robles.
His reputation has not been good. You can do a search on this forum, or read this thread at a different forum.

Bernard Mondello is Joe's son. He started his own business while the ol' man was still around, and is still in business in Corona, CA.
He has an excellent reputation, and is one of the go-to guys.



Originally Posted by RW442 View Post
Ended up with a noise on the passenger side of engine which turned out to be a broken intake valve spring to top it off with 100 miles on new engine... Oil leaks! Coolant leak from overporteded intake which they appoxied, now this.
I hate to say this, but if I were you, I'd take the engine apart. You have no idea what's inside.

Good luck, and welcome to ClassicOlds.

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Old February 3rd, 2017, 08:04 AM
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So, cutlassefi any suggestions on cam size for this application as well as gasket thickness? if i plan on running on the street? also for future reference where would be a good place to buy oldsmobile parts? I am still going to do the compression check, but everything does seem to be pointing towards too much compression..ugh!! Lynn from mondello did say give him a parts list if I wanted to fix it myself..I just want to make sure i get the right stuff. I'm not sure of the formula used to determine the gasket thickness I would need and the best cam for my specs...In the future I am planning on building another one which i have a 425 with c heads and may be looking for someone to build or get the best set up info. on if you do that sort of thing? Thanks! Rob.

Last edited by RW442; February 3rd, 2017 at 08:06 AM. Reason: directed to a certain responder.
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Old February 3rd, 2017, 08:10 AM
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I want to thank all of you for your feedback! its been very helpful! I am very glad i joined!
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Old February 3rd, 2017, 09:09 AM
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Check out Mark Remmel's (Cutlassefi) builds on this site. He has many happy customers here, I am one of them. Email him at [email protected] for the quickest response.
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Old February 3rd, 2017, 09:21 AM
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You are over 11 to 1 if flat top pistons were used. You would need a .080" head gasket to make any dent in it. Really a cam swap would be good as well, Mark would no doubt have something better suited to your build. This is a good calculator to use except the cam timing part.https://www.uempistons.com/index.php...ge=calculators
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Old February 3rd, 2017, 09:39 AM
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Originally Posted by RW442 View Post
Already double checked dist. Adjusting timing with vacuum gauge and degreeable timing light. Best vacuum 15" @ 32 starts to pull hard for a sec. Then runs like crap pings horribly cranks poorly, no vacuum advance connected to HEI..Back off dist to mid 20 10" vacuum vehicle starts and idles fine just no power..As I mentioned, I'm also concerned about too much compression? Just not sure of easiest solution? Since everything is new? Thanks again for the great feedback.

"Best vacuum 15" @ 32 starts to pull hard for a sec. Then runs like crap pings horribly cranks poorly"

Pulls hard for a second, then goes south sounds like a fuel issue as it leans out. What do spark plugs look like?? Keep gap on them around 30.

Different cam may not be needed at all for your symptoms. Pulling the engine apart probably is on the ultimate safe, but expensive side.

For you, or those worrying about vac for brakes, let me remind people using a little smaller bore in the master cylinder on the booster does wonders, for easier power brake pedals. Less boost from the booster is needed and its CHEAP.
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Old February 3rd, 2017, 11:38 AM
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Originally Posted by RW442 View Post
for future reference where would be a good place to buy oldsmobile parts?
Depends upon what you need. Camshafts, intake manifolds, headers, pistons, etc are all available directly from the manufacturers and / or retail outlets (Jegs, Summit Racing, etc). You can also buy a lot of those parts from businesses on this site - just post what you are looking for and someone will direct you to a reputable source.
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Old February 3rd, 2017, 02:45 PM
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Originally Posted by RW442 View Post
So, cutlassefi any suggestions on cam size for this application as well as gasket thickness? if i plan on running on the street? also for future reference where would be a good place to buy oldsmobile parts? I am still going to do the compression check, but everything does seem to be pointing towards too much compression..ugh!! Lynn from mondello did say give him a parts list if I wanted to fix it myself..I just want to make sure i get the right stuff. I'm not sure of the formula used to determine the gasket thickness I would need and the best cam for my specs...In the future I am planning on building another one which i have a 425 with c heads and may be looking for someone to build or get the best set up info. on if you do that sort of thing? Thanks! Rob.

As mentioned I've done builds for more than a few on here. Happy to help.
You need to ask Lynn exactly what piston is in there. If it's a true flat top then using a thicker gasket will be a band aid at best. Then let's go from there.
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Old February 3rd, 2017, 02:55 PM
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My vote if for Mark.
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Old February 3rd, 2017, 05:11 PM
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Lynn told me I was going to get a pilot bearing but did not. He sent me a new crank but it was not perfect either. He did not cover my return shipping like he said he would. Sold it at a loss. One guy said he sent him used parts. Again I hope you at least informed your credit card company of the possible problem. Mine said letting them know early helped in case he stiffed me. Hopefully you won't find any major defects when you rebuild the motor. Some day Lynn will F the wrong guy. Carma is a bitch!
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Old February 4th, 2017, 05:57 AM
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This is like deja vu, all over again. It really surprises that this happens over and over. It amazes me Lyn W. is still in business. I don't want to be a bad person but anyone buying a high dollar Oldsmobile engine of this caliber I would think has been into Olds for a while and the bad experiences about this shop are on every Olds websites. There are about 5 Oldsmobile builders I would use, one has been mentioned already in this thread. There was another bad story about a 400 E engine that I felt bad about the outcome. In that case he used a Ohio builder that had a great reputation but due to health problems it went bad. I'd cut my losses and pull that engine and take it to the nearest Reputable Oldsmobile shop for an autopsy report and have them fix it right. You can try to sue but that's probably all Lynn is good at because of so much practice.
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Old February 4th, 2017, 12:30 PM
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Originally Posted by RW442 View Post
I want to thank all of you for your feedback! its been very helpful! I am very glad i joined!
Your in good hands here Rob.
You can be sure Mark would turn your engine into something it should have been, in all likelihood, better.
Seen it several times here with other members using terrible builders.
I hope to hear its running strong in the near future.

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Old February 4th, 2017, 02:32 PM
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You never mentioned what alum. heads. E-brocks or procomps?

Depending on your location, you may want to try Bill Trovato from BTR Performance. He's in Rochester NY, and a straight shooter with Olds stuff(and others too)

Search youtube for his videos.
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Old February 4th, 2017, 02:51 PM
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I know Mondello has stuck their name on probably out of box Procomps. Betting that is what he has.
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Old February 4th, 2017, 06:14 PM
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[QUOTE=gregvm;988676]
Depending on your location, you may want to try Bill Trovato from BTR Performance. He's in Rochester NY, and a straight shooter with Olds stuff(and others too)


I have heard from a few guys on this side of the pond that, BTR no longer wants to build, repair or even discuss anything other than HIGH $$$$ builds.
A buddy of mine that lives in the Niagara area wanted his 403 looked at but Bill said he no longer provides that type of service.
Now if he wanted a rebuild he could build him one.
His build his way, for X # of dollars.
A couple others were also talking about this that attend Hot Nights Hot Rods.
Just what I'm hearing on this side of the pond.

Ill still say, you can't go wrong with the reviews posted here about Mark, his customer service also out performs any builder I know.
Plus he's always around here to help out when needed!!!
Put-r-ther!!!! You can't put a price on that kind of service.


Eric

Last edited by 76olds; February 4th, 2017 at 06:18 PM.
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Old February 4th, 2017, 07:35 PM
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I would invest in books , Learn and build it you self. The money you will spend in the tools and books will be less than having it re re built and you will gain experience you will never have to pay for again. I have never had an engine built and i dont intend to ever have one built for me. have i spent possibly a little more on lessons learned the hard way...... perhaps but its valuable to know even why things fail or go wrong.
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Old February 5th, 2017, 09:40 AM
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Mark and Smitty, whos reputation has gone downhill are about the only builders who would with people's reasonable budgets. A proper does cost $$$ but come on, not everyone has endless money.
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Old February 5th, 2017, 10:07 AM
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I think we are missing the obvious like fuel, timing, and more. Or where you go first when there are engine problems. Once those are known to be right then look elsewhere. Throwing money around solves little.
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Old February 5th, 2017, 10:23 AM
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[QUOTE=cutlassefi;988471]As mentioned I've done builds for more than a few on here. $$$$ Happy to help $$$$.

With a guy like Mark here, no reason to throw endless money away. If Mark was like the rest of the builders he would take everyone's money endlessly.
I've said it before, Mark isn't a salesman, he is an upfront honest guy that gives valuable advice to us all.
This is what brings good business in the door, always willing to help even thou his cost and time are not included with most questions here.
Try to get that kind of advice for any other builder, I don't think you can.
I also know many members here will be looking for an Olds engine build in the months years to come.
The words such as "HAPPY TO HELP" ring true in the ears and minds of us all here. " NO SALES TACTIC NEEDED "
Cheers Mark, Happy to read many of your helpful posts that one day will provide many of us with one of your awesome Olds engine builds in the future.

Put-r-ther!!
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Old February 5th, 2017, 11:01 AM
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Originally Posted by Firewalker View Post
I think we are missing the obvious like fuel, timing, and more. Or where you go first when there are engine problems. Once those are known to be right then look elsewhere. Throwing money around solves little.
Good point on the fuel issues, it may be out to lunch. The timing has been checked.
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Old February 5th, 2017, 11:12 AM
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Originally Posted by olds 307 and 403 View Post
Good point on the fuel issues, it may be out to lunch. The timing has been checked.
Notice he says when he gives it throttle it goes all to crap. People usually miss the simple.

A friend of mine said his wife 2010 Chevy was having all kinds of electrical problems for awhile now. He opened the hood yesterday and found a baseball size of corrosion, on the battery terminal. Hmmm LOL
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Old February 5th, 2017, 07:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Firewalker View Post
Notice he says when he gives it throttle it goes all to crap. People usually miss the simple.

A friend of mine said his wife 2010 Chevy was having all kinds of electrical problems for awhile now. He opened the hood yesterday and found a baseball size of corrosion, on the battery terminal. Hmmm LOL
It could be fouled plugs, bad wires etc. It is a very good chance that Mondollar built him a turd.
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Old February 5th, 2017, 07:52 PM
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Originally Posted by olds 307 and 403 View Post
It could be fouled plugs, bad wires etc. It is a very good chance that Mondollar built him a turd.

Maybe he did and maybe he didn't, but that most likely is not the problem, as he described, and ask for help on. Dirt/rust in the tank. A weak old fuel pump. Clogged fuel filter, or an old varnished up carb, and perhaps years old. All are possibilities.
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Old February 5th, 2017, 07:57 PM
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But it also shows that knowledge is power. Buy books study them learn carbs , ignition systems etc etc and figure it out. I have books for everything. If you are gonna hot rod unless you got a bottomless check book ., Books will be you best investment on keeping your car on the road with your own work.
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Old February 5th, 2017, 09:45 PM
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????

What is your cranking compression? Have you verified that TDC mark on balancer is in correct alignment with timing tab? What heat range plugs are you using ? Have you read the plugs to help identify issue? How is your fuel system setup? Are you maintaining proper fuel pressure to carb? The more information you can provide to the group will aid in accurate help we can provide. Don't worry about changing anything until you have properly diagnosed issues and came to a sound determination of what is the failure.
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