GEARMAN69

Thanks guys, hope to get converter out soon and off to the shop in Kennedale

GEARMAN69

Finally took the wagon off the trailer today. Got into the carb filter and as expected it was clogged up and full of sediment and sand. Got new front brake hoses and reman calipers put those on today hope that takes care of front brake problems . They did actually bleed good for first time with good pressure so hopeful. Converter out next .

GEARMAN69

Have not pulled converter out just yet since the Fall weather finally hit yesterday so off to the 1/8th mile track tonight in excellent air and hoping for 7.8-7.9 from the 8.00 I got in the heat and humidity last time.

GEARMAN69

Let my son play in the wagon between my 7.93 passes

coppercutlass

Nice . you plan on hitting the track again soon ?

GEARMAN69

Made those first 7 second passes last Friday. Pulled converter today to drop.off tomorrow to get it restalled tighter. Hope to have it back in by end of month and a race on Nov 1st

coppercutlass

Nice !!!. This weekend might be our last bash for the season. depends on what the next few weeks bring. i got side work and i need to pull the trans off the tow rig and the cutlass needs body work lol. i got a tall order before snow falls.

GEARMAN69

Right. Good Luck and hustle. I can race year around at this short track weather permitting November will be last chance for 1/4 mile till Spring. My 7.93 would probably had been a 12.5 since top end losses of.loose converter but that best launch Friday of a 1.69 would equate to more of a 7.6-7.7 , 12.0-12.1 range of I didn't have the losses well see. My last 7.93-7.96 runs were normally 1.71-1.74 60 foot

Lonestar

GEARMAN69 Congrats!.... looks like you're making some nice hits with the wagon. Here's a couple of formulas that you might not have. They've proven to be more accurate (for me) over the years than the Wallace calculators you find online or the decades old, but still widely used, Moroso slide rule which seems to be a bit "happy". As with all things racing/performance related, folks will have their favorite method and what works for them.

(race ready weight with driver x 200) / (et x et x et) = hp Note: 1/4 mile et MUST be used! Remember, this is the amount of hp required to run the et used in the formula at the race weight listed. This is NOT necessarily the hp produced by the engine. Your 7.93 (7.93x1.57=12.45)pass @ 4250#'s looks like this: (4250x200) 850,000/ 12.45x12.45x12.45 (1929.781). 850,000/1929.781=440.46 hp. Again, this doesn't indicate the hp level of the engine, rather how much was utilized on this pass.

To convert 1/4 mile et to 1/8 mile divide by 1.57... or to use one of your passes 12.50/1.57= 7.96
To convert 1/8 mile et to 1/4 mile multiply by 1.57... again, one of your hits 7.93x1.57= 12.45

In my experience, these formula's work well with cars in the 7 second to high 12's range, 1/4 mile.
In my case the car runs better 1/4 mile times (mid 7.20's) @ 2400#'s than the formula provides for but it's very close and gives a quick and easy way to track progress. A recent pass for example: 4.66 @ the 1/8 (x 1.57) converts to a 7.31 @ 1/4. The actual 1/4 time slip read 7.25 on that hit. The formula missed by .06 and that's plenty respectable. As for hp utilized on that pass, 2400x200(480,000)/ 7.25x7.25x7.25(381.078)= 1259hp. On a conservative dyno we make 1200+ so the numbers work. Good luck and keep posting your results!

-David

GEARMAN69

Thanks David. I was aware of the 1.57 conversion and besides that several decades of racing 1/4 and 1/8 mile with mine and buddies 11-13 second street cars I know the 1/8 mile translations quite well. The HP one is cool with just what you got to the ground to push the weight and hopefully I can prove my point after my converter is back in and tighter more efficient and allow my peak torque to actually transfer to the wheels and move me quicker down the track. I dropped it off yesterday and they are to have it done this week. Going to add a ballooning plate as well.

Lonestar

GEARMAN69, that's a really cool project and I'll be following your future progression with it. Hopefully the quest for an 11 second ticket will be achieved soon with a more efficient converter and the "free" hp that fall weather in Texas provides.

GEARMAN69

Thanks man, plus I still need to add the 1" carb spacer that is tested proven gain on the modified stock iron intake I am running

BlackGold

If you have a formula which uses trap speed rather than ET it'll generally be more accurate. It all depends on how good your traction is and how good your engine transitions coming out of the hole.

Even if you've got lousy traction or a stumble out of the hole, your car will MPH almost identical to what it would with good traction and no stumble. So a formula based on trap speed will give a truer indication of engine performance.

GEARMAN69

I prefer mph formulas as well as they give true RWHP just not 18 percent converter slip screwing with flywheel HP, hopefully that will drop down to single digits of slip percent with the new setup

Lonestar

The most common formula using trap speed is: hp=weight x (trap speed mph/234) cubed. Using Gearman's numbers 4250 x .091 (.45x.45x.45) 105.5 trap mph/234 cubed, = 387.28hp compared to the 440+ result of et formula used above.

Using the trap speed formula is a bit more cumbersome to use in the field plus you need to know the logistics of the facility: ie, 66' speed traps or the older 123', photocells or infrareds, which part of the car trips and stops the beam, etc. While it can be true that a relatively slower et car will not be affected as much by wheelspin, bogging, or other issues using the mph formula, a converter that's too loose and other chassis/set up related problems will reflect much lower hp than the et formula. Just my .02 based on decades behind the wheel at the track and hours on the dyno. Your experience may vary...

GEARMAN69

I think the ET based formula is based off the overall torque performance which would favor my current situation as it is quicker than it is fast. Got my fingers crossed on the converter change coming soon.

64Rocket

I would up the fuel pressure to 6 pounds.

Gene

GEARMAN69

I got the converter out Monday and off to Performance Torque Converters of Texas on Tuesday. They had it ready Friday and I got and put it back in Saturday. They did a great job and found all kinds of crazy stuff wrong with it that came from TCI when it was built. This was a essentially a new old stock converter when I got it TCI Street Fighter 10" they previous guy had installed in 20 years ago and only drove car around block and project was parked all this time. He changed it all up and I got it for $90 a while back long before this wagon was around. It had chunks missing from the stator that were not in the converter and the turbines fins were incorrectly bent down on every other one and some double bent in no pattern and he said all the fins are supposed to be pitched the same and that's is not how it a converter should be built. Also the stator bearing was rough with bad spots not smooth. The clearances of the stack were very loose terrible for the efficiency that was so bad in mine. So for $250 the stator was replaced and proper turbine stuff put in and clearance set correctly on stack. Plus an anti ballooning plate added. I got a $100 credit for giving them four stock 12" TH350 cores too so I paid $150. It already is tighter engaged at idle and when I hit it front of house it's now getting more power to wheels leaving rubber black marks in first and second where it wasn't doing that before since it had more slip. Looking forward to the track next Saturday night 1/8th mile again. Well see. I have had no fuel nose overs since changing to New inline filter . I may bump it up half a pound after some runs.

GEARMAN69

This weekend was a bust at the 1/8th mile track. It totally fell over at top of first gear every time. So I just let off. I did a couple short shift passes before the nose over but it was still cutting in and out in second on and off and managed a couple 8.0's . I had some severe fuel restriction that is likely from the stock tank pick up since I have not dropped it and removed old strainer that is probably collapsed and choking my pick up. I have a real strong Rob MC 140 gph mechanical pump and had a half tank showing on gauge with the vertical wagon tank that should not have sloshed and leave the cap lose to vent. I may just go ahead and do a outside bottom rear facing fuel barb on tank and tie into frame fuel line so solve all of that and let it gravity prime. Still have the 1/4 mile race on Nov 1st coming. This was frustrating after it making half a dozen passes flawless on fuel last time with the new inline filter and 3/4 tank fuel. I had some good races with some quick cars and we would leave even wheels up hard launches and then I would just fall down and watch em leave my butt. LOL Seeing their 7.9 times on board knowing I was running that last time.

coppercutlass

Hopefully you can get it squared away. sorry to hear about the issues but once its squared away i cant wait to see what it can really do.

GEARMAN69

Thanks man, yeah it was pretty frustrating to not get to see if I got any improvements from converter. I was chomping at the bit all week waiting and now to have to wait two more weeks to go again . Well at least I got time to address the fuel !

TripDeuces

My old car had a similar problem and it turned out to be the plugs. Would pull hard through first gear then fall on it's face into second missing and popping from there on. Changed to a cheap set of Champions and never looked back.

Lonestar

How much did your 60' improve with the converter change?

GEARMAN69

60 ft so far were not any better , pretty similar. Did a couple 1.73 , previous trip were 1.71-1.74 other than the odd 1.69 that felt real good.

GEARMAN69

The track last time was also not sticking that well I think as far as 60'. Anyway got rained out on the 1/4 mile race yesterday which sucks. I had finished my external bottom rear fuel pick up mod on the tank and am anxious to see the results plus changed to the glass re-usable Mr Gasket filter up front. I was able to punch a hole in and roll inward then tapped in 1/4 NPT threads and re-purposed a brass 90 degree Pontiac PCV fitting that has 3/8 hose barb on one head that points to the frame and is level with the metal line on frame. Primes on gravity alone. The threads worked so well I was able to torque it in firmly and then externally sealed it all with JB Weld after chasing the surface with a Dremel. Also ready to put on a modified square to spread bore adapter that is now a 1" open spread bore spacer. Combined with my intake mods it is supposed to worth 10-15 HP. May have a chance this Friday to hit 1/4 mile for the final Fast Friday Test n Tune if the rain ends in time. Damn that El Nino

GEARMAN69

Well rained out cancelled again tonight .sum beech..... two weeks in a row...Ugh

coppercutlass

its been warm up here. sorry to hear about your crappy weather. I cant wait to see the new e/t's

GEARMAN69

Thanks Copper, yeah just probably have to settle for fair weather 1/8th mile outings. That s one is open year around weather permitting. Hopefully this month.

GEARMAN69

The Texas Motorplex 1/4 mile here locally in Ennis is closed for the year and normally just have Cedar Creek Dragway 1/8th mile as the other option both being about a 15 minute drive but I always forget about Prairie Hill which is a 1/4 mile track about an hour away that is an old WWII air strip. Might be able to try it out this Friday possibly. They have all the electronics and good surface.

GEARMAN69

darn it , turned out prairie hill is done for the year as well.. ok 1/8th only til March then unless I tow S 4 hours to Baytown

GEARMAN69

Was gonna hit Cedar Creek again tonight to finally test fuel tank mod and therefore any converter improvements but yet again rain started up again after getting ready today. I did get the carb spacer on and reinstalled the front 1-1/4 sway bar since it launched good with it anyway. I managed a test drive by the house and unfortunately it still has a fuel issue like before tank mod. Gonna have to dig deeper , check carb and may switch to an electric pump out back. Converter seems to slip as far as before so I doubt much if any improvement there without replacing or redoing it again .. Well that's hot rodding ...

GEARMAN69

Finally got back to working on wagon. Been delayed on it from doing a rebuild on my son's 350 truck and weather, holidays etc. I added some new Monroe gas coil over booster front shocks to replace the old blown out dead ones. Even though they sure launched good. The front end needed to come up some since the old spring were pretty weak. That is part of the future street use like the TA 1-1/4 front sway bar and 7/8 rear bar already added. Put a old tried and true Carter P4594 electric fuel pump out back by the sump pick up at tank. Installed Sport steering wheel that came with car. Also got New tubes in my slicks that had been going flat too quick without them. All I lack now is new converter as I went ahead and ordered a much tighter 12" Hughes GM25 HD model. Thinking under full load it may flash to 2700-3000 in my combo of tall gear heavy car with my high torque combo. I may take the 10" back to have restalled again but then again I may just save it for a different vehicle down the road. A lighter ,lower geared car with my motor with a bigger cam and single plane intake would be a good match but that would only be after I put the nice set of 4340 steel rods I picked up a while back in it so I can lean on it harder and higher . Here is a silly short vid of firing up the other day.

oldcutlass

Did you use the Monroe® 58273 on the front? I was going to put them on mine to get the front up a hair higher. Still toying on using the Monroe 58574 in the back.

GEARMAN69

Yep 58273 up front. $48 Rock auto

HWYSTR455

You may have just hit the wall with the OE fuel system, and need to upgrade. The converter may have nosed it over. If you call Cliff he will school you on the limits and make sure there's nothing with the carb holding it back.

The pusher should help, as long as everything else is up to par. Still thinking you need to go to 1/2" lines though.

Throw the MG glass filter in the trash, not only do they end up leaking and don't flow for chit they are a fire hazard. You're better off with no filter than that thing.

Jim Hand is the wagon master!

.

HWYSTR455

Check your gas cap, vent, and all your soft lines & clamps.

.

GEARMAN69

Thanks for the suggestions


We have had great luck with the Carter pump in the past including my old S10 that went 11.0@121 in the 1/4 with a 6.9 1/8th and with this same carburetor I am running now. That truck had 3/8 aluminum line and sumped 5 gallon cell out back with the same Carter 4594 pusher and never ever once had a fuel nose over , not even when I would over rev past 6000. Yeah Jim Hand is one of my heroes of proper Pontiac capabilities. His brother lives down here (Floyd) and I used to see him at the track a lot. He is pretty old now and it has been a while since I saw him. Cliff is a great carb and combo guy not knocking him but see I have been doing the QJet thing well for decades and long before I ever heard of him. We actually run the same exact carb # on our personal cars. one of the Qjet carbs I had built for a friends 11-12 second 455 1980 Firebird was loaned over to a friend having his 454 BBC dyno tested. It was a 10.5-11:1 oval port 306 comp solid cam setup and made 565 hp with the qjet and right about even with a new holley 850 dp and a race prep holley 800 all were within 5 hp of each other .I race with the gas cap loose to ensure good venting. I was still getting some rust particles in the filter from the tank so that was a good bit of the initial problems. with my new sump pickup and pusher it should be ok. I was running a RobbMC 140 gph mechanical up front but pulling from up front on a stock line with no return line is not ideal. It had to be regulated down as well. As far as stock type Carter OEM pumps. I have had good luck with some types that have a 1/4 return line. Did 109 mph with a 12.6 in my old gto with it as well as same pump on 78 firebird 4 speed also managed 109 mph with factory lines and factory pump. well see how it goes. When my Rallye comes together I plan to add a 1/4 return line and set it up with a Carter OEM pump and see if it does well. That car will get new tank, new lines and pickup sending unit etc. Never liked not having a factory return line. Oddly my wagon that has factory AC did not have a return line. If it comes down to it I will run a new aluminum line for supply and use the old steel line as a return on the wagon.

HWYSTR455

Sounds like you have it well under control, sorry if I pointed out the obvious stuff.

When it comes to fuel systems, OE setups are usually hitting a wall around the 11 second barrier, depending on the 60' times. There are exceptions, but I've heard a lot of folks pick up time once they went to a better system. Most never realize there's an issue until they upgrade.

I like the carter pumps too, have used them many times in the past on 11-12 sec cars. Once I started going beyond that, I started seeing limitations and stepped up to better pumps.

Sometimes what works with a 3/8 line falls flat on a 1/2 line setup.

.

GEARMAN69

Your right there is wall sometimes invisible on the fuel. I am kinda playing by ear on this one and see how far I go with the least. It is still the plan to return the 350 Olds to this wagon and limit the race mods but... I also ponder on putting my forged I beam cap screw 4340 rods in my Poncho block and maybe a set of Kaufman D ports and leave it in the car at 11:1 with aluminum and 93 octane and AC hooked up... LOL


BTW I recognize your PY username , this is PONTIAC LARRY

GEARMAN69

Well a week ago I had ordered the Hughes GM25 BOP HD converter from Jegs via Ebay and all week waited for Shipped status that never appeared. I got ahold of them thru Ebay messages and found it on back order. That pissed me off because Ebay should be ready to go and says how many are available. Got the refund today to Paypal from Jegs after I cancelled and found it cheaper at Pace Performance so it is reordered now. Hope it ships quick ! Honestly I really think it will slip/flash at full load in my situation to 3000 and curious to see how it will run with finally a much more solid coupling between 3000-4500 where as it blew past that before. Also went with this converter since it will be a nice 2200-2300 for the 350 Olds later