The guy I was going to have do mine said it was a bit much to get it all around and would require a few dyno runs to get right. Basically, street or strip, but not both.

The list of "nos" is now q-jet, goggles, Edelbrock

 

exactly

 

I know you despise the Edelbrock, but you were going to use the q jet air valve secondary,, why not try the Edelbrock AVS2?

they are an absolute dream to tune and work on. Easiest carb to do jet changes on in a hurry and you don’t dump fuel while doing it

the Ebrock AVS carbs are miles ahead of the Qjet for tune ability and max power

they don’t have goofy tiny primary and massive secondary that screw with afr per cyl.. they have big fuel bowls, can be duel fed but isn’t necessary. Stagger jetting is easy,, not so with a Q jet.

the pump squirters are changeable to adjust rate/ volume. Edelbrock has a very good jet/rod and spring tuning chart to get you going.

I would send you one to test if you were closer. Guaranteed you would be happy with it

 

They are the last choice anyone would choose if they had a choice of carbs for making the max power they can…this guy has a choice.

He races his car and from what I gather he wants it to haul *** at the track . Why would he handicap himself with a Q jet in the first place?

Can you tell us , or show us , your Q jet expertise at the track with a Q jet? Any cars running your carbs?

 

I’m not a Q-Jet expert, I can tell you the Edelbrock 850 I had on my car ran just as quick as the 750, 850, and 950HP carbs I had borrowed and tried over the years, and not one drove as well as the Q-Jet. Granted, since they were borrowed carbs, I had zero intention of really dialing in the tune, but they didn’t get the same fuel economy, they didn’t run any quicker on the track, and they don’t have that wonderful Q-Jet sound.

Assuming the engine doesn’t need more airflow than the carb can provide, and both carbs are properly calibrated, I really don’t understand how one carb design can have a huge difference in performance over another. It seems people with holleys are constantly fiddling with them, with a Q-Jet you set them up once, and never have to fool with it again.

I suppose my fondness for the Q-Jet is mostly due to my preference of being just a little different. If I didn’t like doing my own thing I would have long ago done the belly button LS, Holley, etc.


There are plenty of super stock and F.A.S.T. cars that run very fast and are required by the rules to run a factory carb, so it can be done. It goes back to what I said earlier, most people won’t do thru the trouble to tune a carb any further than setting the idle speed. If that’s the case, chances are a universal aftermarket carb of any design is going to be calibrated on the rich side to be safe. How can a carb jetted fat perform any better than a properly rebuilt, properly calibrated factory carb?

Just my opinion, but if a guy has no intention of tuning aftermarket parts to work correctly, leave the engine alone.

 

So you tried all those different carbs on your car over the years and did zero tuning as they borrowed and still go on about how people just bolt carbs on and expect them to work without tuning?

And your last statement about guys having no intention of tuning an aftermarket carb, which you’ve said a few times here,, does not apply in this case at all.

This guy has been tuning his self learning efi for a year.. I’m sure he’ll tune his carb.

saying you like to be different by using the same carb the car the came with isn’t being different.

 

Yup, ordering up an AFR gauge here shortly.
While that is true to a point, most (non-resto-nerd) Olds owners have ditched the q-jet for an Edelbrock for cruisers or a Holley on the performance side. So, by that logic, running a q-jet is being different, like running a flat, non-W25 hood.
I rebuilt a 1406 Edelbrock for a friend, and didn't like it. Couldn't get my head around it (wtf are those stupid counterweights?!), and never got into tuning it beyond idle. I've messed with Holley/old Demon, and am fairly comfortable, even without an AFR gauge and reading plugs.

 

I’m talking about the air valve secondary which is spring loaded and adjustable same as the Q jet. Stay away from the counterweighted sec style

Get an AFR gauge with memory recall like the FAST dual O2 sensor one. Without recall they are only good for steady state rpm.

With the memory recall you can replay your afr through a whole run

 

Exactly. While I think the Olds OAI hood is absolutely gorgeous, EVERYBODY has them. Same with the wing. It’s pretty depressing that to stand out, you need to leave the car alone. Same thing with the Q-Jet, I like to be a little different. I like it when people comment on the factory carb when most expect to see a Holley.

While I have no doubt I could have improved the way the car ran with the Holleys, as I said they were all borrowed carbs. If they were mine, I absolutely would have done some tuning. I have had lots of Holley carbs over the years, unless it’s a dedicated race car there are much better choices for the street in my opinion.


Im a believer in giving the engine what I wants, not what you think it needs. Long before AFR gauges were cheap and common, people managed to tune engines just fine.

When I was dialing in the Q-Jet, I fine tuned the part throttle mixture until I got a lean miss at typical highway speed and a typical day. I then richened the mixture just enough to eliminate the miss. I did the same with the metering roads, I kept leaning it out or richening until the mph at the track was maximized. Imagine my surprise when I finally did get a AFR, part throttle cruise was around 15.5-15-8, far leaner than most would find acceptable. I think WOT AFR was 12.9. I think people get too hung up on getting the “ideal” numbers on the gauge and thinking it’s good. Same thing with timing, people think 36 degrees is the magic number, without a little experimenting you will never know.

 

You want to be different?
https://predatorcarbs.com/ 🤪

 

Why do you feel depressed unless you stand out?

This is the high performance and racing section,, not the “look at me, I’m torturing myself running a Q jet “ section

how fast has your car run with the Q jet?

 

I hardly consider myself tortured.

I have run 11.68 with the Q-Jet, 10.94 with a small hit of the blue bottle. Not really all that quick by todays standards, but I don’t think that’s too bad for a 4100 pound car with A/C, power windows, locks, cruise, all the comforts.

I suppose depressing isn’t the word I should have used. I don’t really care for the “bellybutton” car modifications. Everyone has a red Camaro with a LS swapped in, every car show will have at least 10 Chevelles, no distinctiveness.

 

Something new and improved? https://www.enginelabs.com/engine-te...it-carburetor/

 

Should be available August 2037

 

That looks impressive. If they have already used it on the dyno and have sent one out for scrutiny, it should be available soon

 

I'll bet it's available before the Olds heads.

 

Ebrock said early next year, So 2024??? To late for my build, I think. But that been delayed a few months already. I not getting any younger! Damn that Covid!


Real nice, parts you can drop into the intake and heads.

 

is 2023 a leap year?

 

While I see the advantages of basic fuel injection, if it actually worked and was cheap, but the fact is it's neither, in the aftermarket world. Carbs on the other hand are amazing being both dirt cheap, if you know where and what to buy, and reliable amazing performers.
Then there is this, and prepare for a stunner.


I have reasons to believe what he is saying about his results.

 

Man, I was "this close" to pulling the trigger on a QFT Brawler 950! Then, I found a fvckup in the fitech fuel table at 100kpa, 3600 rpm, right where the problem is. The columns were 99, 106, 101% with the 106 in the 3600rpm column in several rows of MAP parameters. I don't know what kind of schools they have in Kalifornia, but the way I was taught, that 106 should be 100. So, there it is, a 6% bump in the main fuel table. Test drive later today.
Mark will get a laugh out of this:

yeah, that's the main fuel/VE table

 

So this happened

 

That sure is pretty !

 

That has to be fast with purple metering blocks.

 

it was another $80 for black and red

 

Another perspective to consider……..

There are inherent advantages and disadvantages with both carburetion and fuel injection. Both technologies are widely and successfully used all over the world. It’s unfortunate that people bash something they have little experience with or know little about just because they read something in a forum or some reviews on line. From my experience (and I research things allot), there are always a large number of negative reviews on lots of things but many often do not take the time to write a positive review on a technology or a product. Myself included! So with that in mind, it’s likely that there are some good reviews and people having good experiences with a particular product rather than things being all negative.

As far as the Holley EFI SNIPER units….I have installed dozens of them with great results. I’ve installed them on allot of Chevrolets, Jeeps, AMC engines, Fords, and etc. But you have to understand that all of these EFI units have limitations and rely on clean and noise-free signals, as well as, consistent fuel pressure in order to control the drivability on an engine. If there are installation issues (which is very common by the way), noisy signals, engine mechanical issues, grounding or charging system concerns, fuel pressure or flow issues, and etc…..fuel injection systems will be affected in one way or another. If a person follows the instructions, buys the correct parts that are designed to work together AND has the knowledge…..the systems can work properly.

When I started working for GM dealerships and at GM we learned all about Q-Jets and how they worked. We used to rebuild them by the dozens for all types of drivability concerns. But back when I started working on cars…that’s all we had so we made it work and carburetion worked well. In the early 80s, mass-produced fuel injection was introduced and there was now a second option for fuel control on our engines. This technology has continued to advance from TBI to Cross Fire, to SPFI to MPFI, to GDI and is now the default technology for everything from our cars and trucks to our small engines and dirtbikes. It’s a proven technology that is only getting better. Those modern EFI advances have allowed us to now have options for our old cars and engines that we drive, modify, and restore.

I will admit that it takes some skill to understand all the signals, the A/F and timing tables within the software, the menus, and how everything all works together for optimal performance. I’m still learning for sure! The average gear-head may not have this knowledge or skill so to them it’s foreign. That’s fine! But if a person is willing to learn all about fuel injection and the items listed above…..there are some strong advantages to using this tried and true technology. For me, I have no plans of ever going back to carbs for my cars. Sure I still work on carbs for others but I am done with that for myself. I have installed two barrel EFI TBIs all the way up through Super SNIPERs that are running 1200 HP and they run with the best of them. Many of my friends run these units at Bandimere Speedway here in Denver and all over the country for the state-to-state drag week every year and so on. For me, I was tired of the inconsistent performance based on the temps and humidity, the boiling fuel, vapor lock issues, and empty float bowls after 20 mins of heat soak when I would go into a store during the summer. I was tired of fouled plugs and full throttle starts to clear out the fuel that had been dropped into the intake while my car was heat soaking. Now the performance on my Chevelle and 442 is dead-on consistent no matter what the temp. I keep both the cars tuned to run at 160-165* and the performance and reliability for me is exciting. I attend allot of car gatherings here in the Spring, Summer and Fall and listen to people crank and crank their old classic cars to overcome the inherent disadvantages of carbs. But people push through those challenges and keep that technology. I would also add that I believe that carbs performed much better at or around sea level than they seem to run here at high altitude and with today’s fuels.

I would encourage everyone to look at the full picture and the use case for your car and driving habits. Carbs are still being produced every day and offer long-standing benefits as some have noted. They are simpler and definitely cheaper depending on how in-depth you address the ignition and fuel technologies that support them. Fuel injection is also a strong contender and may fit the bill for those who want something different or in my case here in Denver----a better performing and more consistent option!

 

Very well put and accurate summation.

 

I agree. I am just tired of going down the rabbit hole. Would a Sniper have been better? I don't know, but I'm not dropping $1500 to find out.
I've come to the conclusion that the fitech 💩 just isn't right for me or the car. It being a stick complicates things further because the engine is direct coupled all the time. I feel like a torque converter would allow some slop for the slow computer.
The final nail in the coffin was finding their f-ed up VE table and unwillingness to work with me. After having a tps fail in 300 miles and an injector at 800, you would think that they might be a little more sympathetic. Nope. They continually blamed the setup saying that the fuel system is inadequate. Well, fundamentals dictate that if, it was indeed running out of fuel, it would be lean in the afr. The only time it ever went lean is getting off the gas and that is to be expected. The problem is it flooding to 9.5:1afr with a sharp climb on the MAP. By the datalogs, it didn't look bad at all. Driving the car didn't reflect that in any way.

 

Its a myth, that carbs crank and crank and crank, to get started. You have this only if their is something that is not right on a car. And it is just as you have with fuel injection when it fails to work right or some other problem exists. I have instantly started my carbed cars a million times, while standing outside them. Now if you live over 5000 ft and live with sub zero cold, then injection might seem better. In he same ways and and in the same conditions a properly operating choke on a carburetor will shine. The real problems there are the fact that you are running at the edge of air and fuel limitations, in those extremes.

But some how carbs on aircraft have done it for over a hundred years and they even have heaters in their fuel systems for carb icing.

Now here is a problem or gripe I have with carbs and injection. They both should get fuel economy, like the guy with the 302 and a lawn mower carb, and should have maximum power on demand as the peddle goes down.

Btw the guy with that video channel of the lawn mower carb is thinking about selling a kit, for people to put that set up on their engines. If that works, and you combined that with a second larger carb that comes in progressively past half throttle..... Make it all that pretty purple and call it the Purple People Eater LOL

 

Fleming---totally understand your frustration and I will preface my response by saying I do not have any first hand experience with the FiTech EFI products. I will say that in the circles where I travel---the FiTech products are not highly regarded and considered inferior to the comparable SNIPER. One friend told me last week that several of the car shops in Denver will no longer install their products. Solving problems with the EFI systems can be challenging and if the tech support is not helpful or sympathetic---that would be a huge red flag to me as well. So far I have received the help I needed from other EFI'ers on the Holley forum and an occasional call to Holley Tech Support.
On the stick shift-manual comment---most of the SNIPERs that I have installed have been in manual cars. Both of my muscle cars are manuals and I can tell you that I can flog the throttle in 1st, 2nd, or 3rd and create smoke and speed very quickly with no hesitation. The Chevelle has an HEI ignition with total-time mechanical advance only and the 442 has the HyperSpark computer controlled timing. The 442 is awake and ready to go just like the Chevelle but I have not raced either on the track. I can keep my foot in the throttle in either car all the way into the 4th gear shift and I am still burning the Mickey Thompson drag like radials and forcing the car sideways down the road. I then pull out because of severely exceeding the speed limits around the area. Possibly there are some inherent differences in the two different vendor systems and what they can do. I can't say!

 

It wasn't so bad banging gears at WOT. The problem occurred in 4th gear, cruising at 3000 rpm or so. Now, that's a sweet spot for almost any engine, so when you drop your foot, it should take off, not fall on its face and flood.
I may have chased it more if the software/tuner suite was worth a crap. You can change just about anything, but it is in no way user friendly, not at all like the Holley software (I've installed one).

 

Injection should be dead nuts simple, reliable, and cheap, and neither exists with after market units. I bought one of the 1990s first Holley systems for over a $1,000 and still have it, but they had a number design flaws and they should have recalled them. Rip me off once shame on you, but not a second time. Trust us..yeah right LOL
The Holley had two problems. One being the ECU was junk burning out and unstable, and the injectors not being standard replaceable parts. It was so cool having 4 big injectors going clickity clack firing down into those big 900cfm bores, and having all four TB blades opening in unison. But it was a money pit headache varying between awesome and unbearable. After a few years of this I finally spotted the new Street Demon. Super cheap and super simple with lots of potential and flexibility. Also with a few possible problems right from Holley, but nothing that couldn't be fixed before ever bolting it on. It requires tearing it down to fix them or make sure they are not there. The floats were way off. The gaskets are not always on them right. The floats themselves look to be the old porous thermoquad float material, that fails and soaks up gasoline over time in a few years. I dipped each one in a gas tank sealer liquid. On the secondary when it opens, the fuel starts later than needed but a few small hole in the right places drilled in the flapper valve fixes this. Now, when the secondary throttle opens and the flapper valve is still shut air hits the fuel tubes below it through those holes, and starts the fuel first before the air. Like a secondary pump shot does on a double pumper.

Oh but what about summer and winter tunes or changing altitudes?? Both easy to change in a few minutes with a screw driver, to both or either the electric choke or the primary metering rods. The "kit" for tuning is not really needed, if you are handy with a little bit of fine emory cloth and solder, and possibly a drill bit and have a wideband AFR gauge. You can also buy the rods and jets separately if you prefer. Fuel pressures also changes how a carb works.

 

how do you like that holley intake?
i got one, havent used it yet.
have you tried others like performer or torker to compare them in same motor?

 

We gonna find out. It went on with the fitech 💩, so it hasn't really run right, yet. There's not much difference than the Torker- 1/4" shorter and slightly better runners.

 

oh ya...mmm gonna have to look at them both together now

 

Got the QFT Brawler 950 on. Lowered the floats, cranked idle screws in a turn, and 1/2 turn out of the throttle blades=14.5 afr idle/perfect


Carbs rule! 🤘😎🤘

 

Good to see its working out.