ROBZ442

I am finally ready to start on the engine for my 1966 442. I am looking to get 500-550 hp out of the 400. I have no issue with using aluminum heads or intake but I want to keep the original block in the car so using a 455 is out. I have read through some of the builds on here but none really focus on the 400.

This may not be the most practical way to go but I would appreciate any thoughts or suggestions.

Thanks

Stevec

Thats gonna be tough and expensive if at all possible. Ide go 455....

chadman

The easiest way is to convert your 400 into a 455. The early 400's had pretty thick walls and can typically be bored out to 4.125 without issue. Then add the 455 crank and you have a 455 that says it's a 400 from the outside. The engine in my '65 is actually 461 CID in a 400 block. It makes about 475-500HP and has gone 11.60 at 116mph in a 3825lb. car on pump gas through the exhaust. Here is a link to the specs:
http://72.22.90.30/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=77901

You could easily make more power with a good set of ported Edelbrocks and more cam.

Stevec

Chadman thats a nice build! To bad the g blocks are not that versatile...

VORTECPRO

5 years back, at my shop we did a 65 389 Pontiac, the stipulation from the customer was the original block and HORRIBLE 1965 29 degree heads had to be used, a lot of work was put into that engine and the result was 504 street friendly HP on 91 octane, leaving Bruce Fulpers head spinning backwards. The point is your goal can be attained, its a matter of getting with the right people, in my opinion thats BTR, from the little Ive seen on here he delivers. Good luck on your build.

ROBZ442

Chadman

Great build, this is exactly what I was looking for. I have sonic tested my block already and it is good to go. I am still in the planning stages but it looks like I am headed down a path similar to yours. I am leaning towards an Eagle crank kit and Icon pistons. It's nice to see you are using some of the same parts knowing that this set up works and lives on the street.

Thanks for the input.

Vortecpro, I agree on using the right people that can make all of the difference in the world.

VORTECPRO

If you run those Icon pistons, you need to figure out a way to get a metric ring pack in there with spacers, free HP, and its easier on the bottom end. Any information on the sonic CK?

Rickman48

If it was me, I'd use another '66 block, and keep the original for originalities sake.
You're replacing everything anyway, and you'll have the NM block, in case of errors!
Just my opinion.

Run to Rund

Sam Murray must have at least that much HP with his 1967 400 NHRA stocker with Qjet, iron intake and heads. He has run a best of 10.82 at 122 with it.

archeryshooter

Oh ya!

ROBZ442

The block sonic tested with plenty of material to bore it to 4.125. The exact numbers are at the shop. I decided to use the original block because it checked out good. If I ever decide to go back to original it will just be a little bigger internally. This car is a one family car and will stay that way as long as I am alive so I am not worried about 100% originality or resale value.

I figured since I will be replacing the rods I am looking to my options to stroke it.

Since I am still in the planning stages I haven't quite figured out the displacement or intake. I will be using ported Edelbrock heads with a roller cam. I am leaning towards either a Torker or an Air gap. The carb I am looking at is n 850 Quick fuel.

Any opinions on the induction side?

Thanks

cutlassefi

I love dual planes but I'd use a Victor, even though hood clearence may be an issue.
My next choice would be a Torker or Offy single plane. Air gap doesn't have enough plenum volume in my opinion, not sure why they did that. By the time you ad a spacer to it you'll be at the same height as the Victor.

Jmo

SBORule

Can you post a couple pics of your car ?

I have a few idea's bouncing around inside my head on a direction I would go but something tells me it's exactly what you are going to do.

ROBZ442

Here you go. As you can see I have no hood clearance issues. The current rear gear is a 3.91 but that will be swapped for a 3.23 with the new combo.

cutlassefi

Then with that gear and your desired hp/tq target I'd do a stroker with a Victor using your block.

Jmo

507OLDS

You have a big bump in that hood.Use a Victor & put a stroker assembly in that 400 block.You will need to notch the bottoms of the cylinders,just the the 455's,to clear the rods & the additional stroke.

Run to Rund

If you plan to bore out that 400 block, be sure there is no core shift anywhere or a wall may have a thin place. The factory didn't have to worry much with the 4" bore whether the block had core shift. Also, if you want more stroke, check carefully at the bottoms of the cylinders, etc. for clearance. The bottoms of 455 blocks are a bit different, with extended areas for the piston skirts and reliefs for the rod bolts.

SBORule

Heck, I wasn't even thinking about putting a 455 crank in it or having the 400 cranks rod journals offset ground down to BBC rod size for a 4.250" stroke.

I was thinking Custom pistons for the 4.125" bore and sticking with the 3.98" crank and 7" rod.

I always think, less is more.

jfb

hey buddy depending on your rpm I would go with a torker if possible. victors according to the manufacture need a lot of rpm to be effective really effective. I run almost to 7000 rpm and the torker seems more effective. plus if you do decide to go with a stock hood in the future with a dropped base air cleaner you will not have to change intakes again or foot the cost of it. I am saying this from conversations only about the victor but i have a torker installed.

SBORule

The Victor has the Torker beat hands down in the HP & TQ department from 1500-7500 rpm and above.

ROBZ442

I was thinking custom pistons at first myself but then if I can use someone else's off the shelf piston with pin bushings or snap rings that would be a whole lot cheaper to replace when something goes wrong.

BBC rods....Hmmmm.

ROBZ442

I am not looking to build a high winding engine and most of my driving will be on the streets but I will be hitting the strip a few times a year. I currrently have a Torker but want to look at all intake options. I do like the look of the Victor but I know looks wont make it any faster.

507OLDS

I would bore the 400 block as little as possible,to preserve it for future builds,and keep the cylinder walls as thick as possible.If you can find an off-the-shelf piston for that,great,but if you can't,don't beat yourself up or force yourself to use a certain part.Just have the correct piston made.If you do any stroking to the crank,you will finish it with BBC rod journals,so you have a variety of BBC rods to choose from,in a variety of lengths as well.What is the current bore size of the block?

coldwar

Perhaps you might postpone the engine job and get on that cedar shake roof ASAP! Yikes!

Run to Rund

A lot of people go a nominal .057" over and use W31 replacement pistons, forged SpeedPro, etc. Be sure to put an extra .002-3" clearance at the skirts for .0045" clearance. Another choice is to bush the rods and use 350 Chevy race pistons and floating pins, but you will have to deck the block at least .05-.06" to preserve compression. The advantages are saving about 1/2 pound per piston/pin (you must re-balance the engine), getting 1/16" ring package, and no pin offset. For moderate street usage, probably not worth it.

captjim

You are going to have to wind it up to some degree if you want an honest 550 HP out of 400 cubes. The short stroke does lend itself to Rs. If you do the stroker deal, you are still looking at 1.1 hp/CI which will require at least 6,000, IMHO. Now, do you need that to have a fun car? Absolutely not.

ROBZ442

5,500-6,000 rpm is what I was thinking but no more than that. I know I don't need this to have a fun car but I figure if I'm going to do this I might as well aim high.

cutlassefi

If you're going to stay with 400 cubic inches or so then you'll need really good heads and a fair amount of cam to reach your goals.

But if you stay with the stock 400 dimensions, more or less, then I'd consider a BBC rod. Offset ground crank to a stroke of 4.17, a BBC 7.1 rod and the SBC 383 piston. That is a 4.00 bore with a compression distance of 1.425. They're available in just about any dish etc. and Eagle makes a BBC to SBC pin bushing.

You have combinations available, but imo I still think the 455 or stroker combo is more realistic and probably less expensive in the end.

507OLDS

With the 3:23 gears,a short-stroke,higher-winding oriented engine is not a good match,as the gears will take it longer to get the rpms up.Thus the discussion of a stroker,and a lower rpm range,or more power at a lower rpm range.
With the stroke of 4.17",you could use your 400 crank.You can stroke that up to 4.2975" if it has nice journals to start with.

ROBZ442

The block is currently .040 over from the last build, the crank is shot and will need to be replaced. I am looking at using an Eagle crank, they offer them in std., 4.25", and 4.5" stroke. I am planning on ported Edelbrock heads and decent sized roller cam. Once I get the rotating assembly worked out I will narrow down the cam selection.

I think a set up like this should make plenty of power and torque and still be civilized enough to live on the street. In a worst case scenario and all hell breaks loose internally I do have a spare block.

I do appreciate all the suggestions it is giving me plenty to think about before I start whipping out the check book.

VORTECPRO

I would build with the shortest stroke and biggest bore, put your original block away and go for results, going into a build with one hand tied behind your back sucks, especially when you get to the track, stroke leads to windage losses especially at the dragstrip, your already cylinder head limited, Id get with the best Olds Edelbrock porter out there at the same time. Its been mentioned, the D/S 400 olds, 10.80s, 500 HP showing, well if he can make 500 going down the track with stock parts, 550 anything goes should be a walk in the park for you, then it will be a matter of how you utilize the HP, and this is the real trick, Cant wait to see how Al Godon utilizes his HP, of course we probably will never find out. A 10.2 comp 400, killer heads, a well designed hyd or solid roller that will make power to 6500 RPM, engine built with low drag in mind with a light rotating assembly will make 550 plus HP. If you run a stock size rod pin, ALLWAYS OVAL HONE the rods housing bores ALLWAYS.

ROBZ442

It took me a few minutes to figure this one out but I got it. LOL That place has been abandoned for a long time.

ROBZ442

How much work will the Edelbrock heads need to support 550 HP? After listening to everyone about the original block I will have the spare block checked out and use it. I understand about the windage loss of a stroker but for a street car is that a big concern compared to the increase in displacement? How different would it be from a 406-420 ci build vs a 460-480 ci build? Are the old days of no replacement for displacement dead?

I can see different characteristics for each build but how different is the end result? Is this apples to oranges?

chadman

For A primarily street car I would go with as much displacement as possible. If you take two engines from the same family (400 Olds vs. 455 Olds) with the exact same build specs (heads, compression, cam etc.) they will make similar power. The larger of the two will make it's power at a lower RPM though and will be more docile to drive on the street.

In an all out race situation where you run on a pounds per cubic inch type of system, particularly where you are cylinder head limited, a smaller engine can have an advantage. This is not the case for your application.

cutlassefi

X2
First you have to decide whether you want 500 or 550. There's a difference, especially with the available Olds heads. It gets expendentially more expensive the higher you go.
You can make 550 with a stroker kit, good heads and the right cam fairly easily, it's been done a bunch. And you don't necessarily have to spin it high to get a good time.
Plus as mentioned more cubes is usually more driveable.

Jmo

VORTECPRO

I think your better off with the 455 for what your doing, I think windage is a bigger problem when the car is launched hard at the dragstrip, but I could be wrong. I dont have any experiance with a 455 build with Edelbrock heads, but this 400 D/S olds shows 500 HP with either Edelbrock heads or stock heads, I think at 550 HP the Edelbrock heads will need work, unless an agressive cam is used.

cutlassefi

BTR made 540 with a 496 and out of the box Edelbrock heads.
Brian (507) has made good power with his stroker as well. I stick by my first recommendation, go with the cubes and you'll need less work/money overall.

Mark, remember you're trying to get BBC power from a BBO with heads that flow about what a good set of SBC heads flow, period. Even Travoto has only gotten a little over 300 cfm with ported, stock valve/pushrod placement Edelbrocks. Again that's about what a good set of AFR SBC heads flow.

VORTECPRO

I agree with the bigger is better idea, especially for this application. I agree with your ideas on the flow. Windage is very important, after reading what the OP plans on doing with this engine, I dont fosee any hard wheels up launches from this car, more cubic inches makes more sense, even though its cylinder head limited. THe D/S 400 olds ran C heads, but NHRA also accepts the Edelbrock head as legal. The longer you can hold a valve open the more it will fill the cylinder. My ported G heads will easily support 580 HP.

507OLDS

Unless your 400 crank is bent or broke,it is not shot.Are the mains good?

ROBZ442

The crasnk is not bent or broke but it is wore out. Mains were turned twice before have some nasty grooves in them. It would need to be resurfaced to be used again.

And as VORTECPRO mentioned this will be a street car with decent manners and I do not plan on any hard wheels up launches.