Is it possible to mate a 4L85E chevrolet crate transmission to a (custom built) 455 oldsmobile engine?
If so are the needed parts readily available or does this require custom work?

Also is it possible to get my column shifter, speed & tachometer working with this transmission? (72 cutlass supreme)
Found this so probably yes? http://www.abbott-tach.com/cablex.htm

To simplify things i would love to install a TH400 + Gear Vendors Overdrive but i want to do sustained 160mph + and the TH400 has no lockup converter
and i got told it would generate to much heat because of this and would not work? Is this true and no fix?

So what to do?

Also what kind of rear gear ratio would you choose with either transmission & the given application?
My 89 mercedes 560 sec (that also has a 4 speed automatic, tops out at about 150 mph with "just" 240hp) has a 2.47:1 ratio according to benzworld.org so probably something like that?
(Car will also be used to drive around town so it should not be a dog there...)

Want to get the engine custom built ~ 650hp "marine style" to handle sustained high rpm's and backed up with a high performance oil and cooling system.

There would also be the possibility to get a custom built 454 since its the same platform as a chevelle and so it should bolt right in and
the gauges, a/c etc. should all be compatible as far as i know.

 

You can get an adapter plate, and of course, the controller ECU, and it can be done. Pay attention to torque converter depth.
The GV unit is 3k; I think you'll be 5k in with a built trans.
As far as the column, some say you need to change the "comb" in the column. I put a Series 2/4L60E in a G body that had a 3 speed auto. I lengthened the column rod about 5/8" and it worked, but the scale on the PRNDL is a tad off. So, it really depends on what you want to do.

 

Just get a well built 200-4R. It’ll be less than all the TH400 and GV stuff and a lot easier to install. There are hundreds of turbo’s V-6 Buick’s out there running 9’s with those trans. If done right it’ll hold up no problem.

 

Not only Mark's 2004R suggestion above with every upgrade possible and the .67 OD will allow steeper gearing vs the .75 OD of the 4L85E. Do up a SBO stroker with the 4" billet cranks he offers. That will take high rpm much better than any BBO due to the much smaller bearing sizes and much lighter parts and should still make 650 hp, if built with the right parts and specs.

 

What's a fully built 2004r go for?

 

Good question, probably around 3K. There is an easy $1000 US in parts alone but you get superior gear ratios over the 4L85E but obviously less strength. At his power levels, it should live a decent life if built properly.

 

What do you consider "sustained" ???? If it was my car I wouldnt even be messing with an automatic transmission.

 

I just looked up the 2004r which seems to check a lot of boxes!
Can be built up to 1000hp/850tq, lockup converter, should be easy to install in my car and get the original shifter and gauges working...
And it should also be no problem behind a custom built, high torque ~650hp Olds 455 if i see correctly.

Now i'm a bit confused as i was told not having a lockup converter in the TH400 would be a problem for sustained 160mph + driving?

Because if no lockup converter is not an issue i think the simplest thing would be installing a built TH400 with a gearvendors overdrive
since they came in the car from the factory and i know for 100% sure it can handle the power long term?

I have no doubt a smallblock to be better suited for sutained high speed/rpm applications in general but i think it should
not be a problem with a custom built 455 olds or 454 chevy too as there are marine versions of these engines as well.

I do not really want a small block v8.
I have never seen a naturally aspirated (i'm not a fan of forced induction, efi & modern engines) sbo/sbc with 650hp and if so i doubt they hold up very long?
Especially under sustained 160mph + / high rpm driving applications.

An hour nonstop will happen relatively often. Rarely up to 2-3 hours nonstop. (Autobahn at night)

I do not want a manual because i'm aming for a car that can also be used to drive around town, getting grocerys etc,
and therefore i want the comfort of automatic and a/c.

Pretty much what this guy has


Just a little less engine and setup for autobahn fun.

 

That sounds like a lofty goal for a 455. Having a 4 speed (no OD), mine turns 3300 doing 65mph. What are you targeting for a cruise rpm at "160mph.....for 2-3 hours"? What rear gear? 1.90s?

 

Remember, I am talking a possible 434 cubic inches due to the 4" crank. Also 2.5" mains and 2.1" rod bearings on a 5140 or probably the 4340 blillet steel for your motor will easily take all you can throw at while being way lighter than a 455 "N" crank. Honestly no 650 hp 454 or 455 will like cruising at that low of cruising rpm either. That low of rpm was borderline with 9 to 1 mild 214/214 cam Olds 350 running a TH2004R and 2.78 gears, 1700 rpm at 70 mph with a 25" tall tire. I am stepping up to 3.90 gears in the spring. It will bring my cruise rpm from the way too low 1400 rpm at 60 mph with a 275/60R15 tire to 1900 rpm at 60 mph and 2200 rpm at 70 mph, ideal IMHO. You want 500+ cubic inches so a less radical cam can be run if loafing rpm is what you want with 650 hp. So either a crate big cubic inch BBC or a Rocket Racing block build will probably be necessary to meet either goal. Good luck.

 

If you really want the T400 with lock up, look up Hughes Transmissions in PhxAz. They offer a lock using external valves and hoses. Nice piece and I have only heard great things about it.

 

I would be looking at a DX or rocket racing block for any kind of prolonged hi speed running.
We used to run our cars up to 120 MPH + regularly for short periods of time at that speed the fenders and hood were moving around.
I would plan on major upgrade of brakes frame suspension etc.

 

Is an hour at 160 mph when you'll have to stop for gas anyway?

 

ive wondered if a lock up converter could be made to replace the converter in a switch pitch th400.

 

A Stage 3 2004R (rated 1,000 HP/850 LBS.FT) will run you $3,700 plus a billet lockup converter ($1,000) for around $5k

http://www.extremeautomatics.com/th2004R.php

You can get a Stage 3 4L80E with an Olds SFI bell-housing pattern so NO additional adapter plates would be needed.



Can handle about 1,600 HP and 1,000 LBS.FT. Will cost you around $5k for the trans plus $1,000 for the lockup converter, plus a controller $800, so all in around $7k

http://extremeautomatics.com/product...t=123&fromc=20

A $2k difference but the 4L80E will handle more power, easier to tune with the controller vs TV Cable (2004R). If you can spare the $2k, I would go the 4L80E route over a 2004R.

 

I calculated a bit around https://purperformance.com/p-29669-rpm-calculator.html
And came up with 4156rpm with a 200-4R (0.67:1) and 3.00:1 rear gears.
4838rpm when using a TH400 with gear vendors overdrive (0.78:1) and the same 3.00:1 rear gears.
Was calculating with a 26" inch tire diameter. (My current setup)
Of course there is room to play with tire diameter and rear gear ratio. The rest is depending on transmission choice.

Well as far as the engine goes i will have to talk to a few good engine builders and see what they say. (I'm not building an engine myself anyway)
I know there are oldsmobile 455 marine engines so i think it can be built to handle sustained high rpms but see stated above.
And i'm just referring to the basic typ of engine when i say 455 olds or 454 chevy. Of course more displacement is no problem and probably necessary.

That's good to know!
I think either this or the 200-4R is the way to go.
Both have their advantages and disadvantages (TH 400 + GV is the easiest to install, 200-4R has a numerically lower overdrive gear ratio).

One question about lockup torque converters:

Lets say i got a 200-4R or 4L85E 4 speed automatic transmission (which is basically a 3 speed with overdrive as far as i know)
Is the lockup converter pre or post overdrive?
In other words: If i'm in 4th gear with the lockup converter engaged and its a 200-4R,
is my transmission output direct 1:1 or 0.67:1 with the lockup converter engaged? I think the latter one?

 

Lockup on a 2004R would require a billet converter with multi-clutch lockup to handle locking up at that HP and speed.
The lockup would be POST overdrive or in 4th gear. You can lock it while in 3rd gear but it is NOT recommended and can damage the trans.
So your trans would be in overdrive (0.67) and then the converter would lock-up (requiring a toggle switch controller on an older vehicle)
Depending on the stall, the RPM's would drop around 300-400 rpm once locked. The trans temps would drop substantially when locked. Going from 180F to around 130F once locked up.

 

I did not see this reply before my last response. Well this also makes the 4L80E adorable again.
At the end of the day all three (4L80E, TH400 + LC + GV & 200-4R) seem to work and have their unique up and downsides.

So do i understand this right:
When i'm in 4th gear / overdrive (0.67:1) going 160mph and spinning 4156rpm and then engage the lockup converter, the rpm would drop about 300-400rpm to 3856-3756rpm?
I dont understand why that is but it would be good. I was fearing rpm would go up when the lockup converter is engaged...

 

Even a 455 driving a Berkley jet will still only pull about 5000rpm, safely. That's also not sustained for more than a few minutes. Work smarter not pull the pin on a grenade.. Is that how it goes? Something like that

 

When the converter is locked up there is no slippage so engine rpm required to maintain 160 mph is lowered. Lowering rpm is always a good idea on an engine that was not designed to run at prolonged hi rpm. You might want to go LS.

 

x2

 

I would agree that for a sustained high-RPM at 140mph+ speeds. I would look into an LS engine with a 4L80E trans. While the Olds 455 is a decent engine and makes great torque. It really wasn't designed for sustained high-RPM racing. With a 2-bolt main, heavy crank, and long stroke, it's not the best for sustained high RPMs. There are better engine designs for that. An LS3 engine with a dry sump would be ideal but even a standard LS3 would do well under those conditions.

 

A torque converter is constantly slipping when driving. This slippage creates heat in the transmission fluid and a loss in RPM. A lockup converter has a clutch that engages the converter 1:1 to the engine so there is no longer any slippage, heat build up and no RPM loss.

In theory, if a torque converter locked in 1st gear while at idle, the engine would stall out.

 

Example of how to get a safe rpm at 160 mph...

With a 28" tall tire, the product of the transmission ratio in top gear times the rear axle ratio should be 2.05 to get 4000 rpm at 160 mph. Your Olds engine will need to make enough power at that lower rpm to be able to live for hours.

For example, my top gear is 0.50 overdrive. My rear axle ratio is 4.10. Multiplying those numbers gives 2.05.

Be sure to calculate the driveshaft rpm at 160 mph. Buy a driveshaft that can live at that rpm. It will need to be large diameter and relatively light. Driveshaft specialty firms will be able to make this. Just tell them what you need for dimensions and rpm of the driveshaft. My stock body would not clear a driveshaft larger than 3.75" diameter without major surgery.

Stock Olds have too much front-end lift at anything over 120 mph to cruise comfortably. You will need to make aerodynamic improvements (example, cut the airflow under the car) to get to your 160 mph goal safely.

An aftermarket frame will significantly improve torsional rigidity. This is needed to get good handling at high speed.

 

Getting an 1970-1972 Olds to see sustained speeds above 160mph is a very lofty goal. It will take a lot of $$$ and top engineering. And I mean A LOT of $$$

The factory A-Body front end suspension was never designed to travel at those types of speeds. The geometry is bad and one basically has to remove and replace the entire front end suspension. The entire breaking system must be redesigned.

An Art Morrison frame would be a huge upgrade as they re-engineered it.

https://www.venombuilds.com/Chassis-...mobile-Cutlass

https://artmorrison.com/products/gt-...assis/chevelle

Or you can buy a pro touring car and have a decent starting base to aspire to those goals:



Or just buy a C6 Vette for around $25k-$35k, that in stock form can see speeds of 185mph and do it very safely, as the car was engineered to travel at those high speeds. I can personally attest that a C6 Vette at 160mph is very stable and feels like its glued to the road. Once again, the C6 was engineered and designed to travel at those speeds. An A-Body Olds was never designed to travel at those speeds so basically you have to re-engineer the entire vehicle which will cost you probably around $75k-$100k to do it correctly, since you are paying others to do the work.

 

Yeah, I was thinking 160 km/hr, 160 mph is insane! I can tell you 180 km/hr doesn't feel all that fast in the Challenger.

 

Neither does 260 km/h. Mercedes designed it as a high speed/high performance car with a powerful engine and then added other models with lower performance engines. GM did the opposite with our classics, they designed a lower-performance car and then added powerful engines. As pettrix said, it will cost a lot to redesign an Olds for adequate high speed performance.

Challenger is another option for sustained high speed operation. It has the advantage of looking more like the models from the muscle car era.

 

100mph is okayish on 73-77 frame, been doing that on occasion, althought i most often cruise between 80 to 90mph. I build mine entirely to cover distances, its not a quarter miler ( gearing, overall engine build), but i enjoy to travel with it and cover miles. From my notice, when passing the "magical" 110mph mark where the speedo pegs, it starts to wander all over. It might be my suspension, but something happens after passing the 100mph mark.

But then again, anything over 95mph at highway gets your licence suspended here in Finland from one try, so driveability after 90mph dont really matter that much..

 

By now many people told me that a 455 olds wont be a good idea, so i'm slowly starting to believe it.
The problem with sustained high rpms is probably identical for the buick and pontiac 455's such as the chevy 454's?

I know i could just buy a modern ls chevrolet connect & cruise -> problem solved.
But i just dont want a modern engine with efi and all the electronic/computer stuff on it...

I guess what i want is a custom built 426 hemi but unfortunately this would be the most difficult and expensive one to transplant.

Probably will look at @olds_307_and_403 's suggestion of a custom built sbo.
If i can get the 650hp, street ability and sustained high rpm/high speed capability out of it without
efi, computers & forced induction it would at least be an option.

Ultimately it comes down to what the engine builder that i will go with says.
But i really want to avoid a modern engine if at all possible.

As for everything else i will go with a Schwartz Performance (alternative roadster shop or art morrison) chassis.
This will take care of the frame, suspension, brakes & steering. Basically everything else so i dont have to worry about that stuff.
Only "downside" is the lowest numerically rear gear ratio in the schwartz performance configurator is 3.00:1

I know this project will be 60-80k in parts alone.

I often drive the car at 100mph (gps) right now and it feels stable, the only real weak point at this speed are the brakes.
Its not going that much faster but i think 110mph wont be much different.

We rented out a 2017 Challenger SRT 392 and i was going 160mph.
Of course it drives great, but i don't like all the modern electronics.

Thought about buying a 1990 ZR-1 but at the end of the day it only got 2 seats, isn't very comfortable, its only available as a manual
and does not look like a 60s, 70s muscle car. It would not be a long term solution for me.

But i again got a lot of great info in this thread so i think i will be able to figure this out.

 

160 mph sustained will almost certainly never be safe in a 70s GM car, even with extensive chassis work.

 

I did a few more calculations

160mph
26" tire diameter
3.00:1 rear gear ratio
0.67:1 transmission gear ratio (200-4R)
= 4156 rpm (Which will drop 300-400rpm more with lockup if i understand right)

160mph
28" tire diameter
3.00:1 rear gear ratio
0.67:1 transmission gear ratio (200-4R)
= 3859 rpm (Which will drop 300-400rpm more with lockup if i understand right)

160mph
28" tire diameter
3.00:1 rear gear ratio
0.78:1 transmission gear ratio (TH400 + LC + GV)
= 4493 rpm (Which will drop 300-400rpm more with lockup if i understand right)

160mph
26" tire diameter
2.47:1 rear gear ratio
0.78:1 transmission gear ratio (TH400 + LC + GV)
= 3984 rpm (Which will drop 300-400rpm more with lockup if i understand right)

So a custom built olds 455 is still not completely out.
It simply are a lot of variables that play into the whole thing which means a lot of combinating, caclulating & talking to engine builders for me.

 

This is a really interesting idea, and I think it would make a good web series. I would enjoy following it to see how you modify your classic vehicle to make it safe and possible to drive on the autobahn.

I have driven an Audi A1 on the autobahn at 125mph, and it seemed very safe. It did not seem like the Audi had much more in it, but I may have hit my comfort level, too. The drivers know how to drive and follow the rules, and the roads are amazingly smooth and wide. When I was 16 I drove my 66 4-4-2 convertible to what looked like about 128mph on the speedo. I was young and very dumb. That could have ended very badly very quickly.

Your car would never be as safe as a modern vehicle with crumple zones, airbags, etc., although if you crash any car at 160mph, there is only so much protection these can provide. I personally would never consider it without completely upgrading the suspension on the car along with much larger brakes, installing a full roll cage, 5 point harness and probably some aero work. I would look at the late 60s and 70s NASCAR cars for inspiration. Those cars were not all that sophisticated, truly not much more than stock cars with more safety features and go fast parts.

Chevy raced Monte Carlos in 72 which are a very similar body shape to your 72 Cutlass Supreme, and these cars certainly ran for hours at higher speeds than you are suggesting.
https://bangshift.com/bangshiftapex/...to-perfection/

Good luck, and keep us posted if you decide to do this.

 

All numbers are based on a locked converter.... an unlocked converter will slip 3-400 rpm more.
Unlocked slippage is dependent on converter design, vehicle load & HP produced.

 

Now i finally understand how this works, thanks!

My theoretical calculation (that i did with https://purperformance.com/p-29669-rpm-calculator.html) assumes that my transmission has a lockup converter
and therefore there is no converter slipage.
Now if i had a transmission without a lockup converter i had to put 300-400rpm on top of my calculation (because of the converter slipage)
I think a manual would also have no slipage by design? I know how to drive them but i never really looked into how they work...

 

The lock up converter is a 250 to 300 rpm drop, usually around 300 rpm. Here is a very accurate calculator with the 2004R ratio already programmed in.
http://tech.oldsgmail.com/ch_axle.php
I just programmed in my current combo, Olds 350/TH2004R and 2.78 gears. if I put on my 275/60R15 tires, 160 mph is 3600 rpm! A more realistic 80 mph is 1800 rpm. Too low, 3.90's in the spring will make it perfect.

 

Oh, apparently my Wife tested our Challenger's top speed, 212 km/hr or 131.731 mph. No speed wobbles or any funny business. Our GT has better suspension and brakes than the base model. I can't imagine locking up my 4 wheel drums in an emergency stop situation at that speed. Even though we have open country here, we have a lot wildlife, including Moose and over 70 mph is a good way to get an expensive ticket.

 

I think the best solution would be to just buy a vehicle that was engineered to travel at those speeds and to do it safely. Modern engineering & electronics are your friend in your quest. Trying to get a 50+ year old vehicle to do something it was never engineered to do is not only a huge uphill climb but a very expensive and possibly a catastrophic and deadly quest.

If you had advanced engineering and mechanical skills and a large bank account, then I would say go for it. But based on your comments, you don't have those, so I don't think you should attempt it. Doing 160mph+ for sustained times, is something that should be left to a modern vehicle that has been engineered to do those speeds. Millions of dollars went into production and engineering for those vehicles.

Why reinvent the wheel? Just get a modern vehicle that is engineered to do those speeds.

 

I am certainly not a fan of corvettes but two things I would want if I planned that kind of speed, ABS and Airbags.( in the steering wheel not suspension)
Can’t imagine updating any Old car for those.

 

Thinking about brakes etc.. I wonder if there might be some opportunity for this build from the "Touring Car Masters" series in AU. https://whitelineracing.com.au/tcm-series/
I enjoy watching that quite a bit, especially Bathurst races.
JH

 

The 2004R has a much lower 1st gear than the 4L85e, which would be a big help when you only have 3:00 rear gear. its also lower in 2nd and a better O.D. which is good for your high speed.

the 200 is about half the weight of the 4L,,120 vs 230 which im assuming not only adds weight to your car, it eats more HP to run