Newsmobile69

Hi there,

the 98 I am going seems to have a rather rare "option" (if you can call it that)
It is white but has a black painted roof (no vinyl). It is a one owner car and the old lady claims her husband hated vinyl tops so he ordered it without one. She still kept the receipt from 73 and one of the the extra charge items on it says

"Finish, Two Tone. Magic Mirror 43.00 $"

So my question would be if it is indeed possible it really came with two tone paint instead of the vinyl roof? The Magic mirror part confuses me a bit. The two tone hopefully does not refer to the mirror, because it's obviously a chrome mirror and not a painted one. Maybe both items combined cost 43 bucks and they just ran out space on the receipt.

jaunty75

"Two-tone" refers to a car painted two different colors, a lower color and a roof color. These were very common in the 50s and persisted right through to the '70s, and it wasn't always limited to roof versus lower body. "Magic Mirror" was a GM or Olds trademark for paint. It does not refer to the rearview mirrors.

Here's a two-tone 1955 Olds 98.



It apparently cost an extra $43 to have the roof painted a different color. When you say "receipt" from 1973, what receipt? You mean the dealer's invoice for the car's purchase, or is this some other kind of receipt from the dealer or elsewhere? Scan it and post it. Perhaps the painting of the roof was done by the dealer before the car was delivered, instead of at the factory.

Post a photo of the car's body cowl tag, which is about the size of a credit car and under the hood on the firewall. It will have code numbers on it indicating the color or colors the car was painted at the factory.

Newsmobile69

@Jaunty: I don't have the car yet, but I sent you a picture of the delear's invoice.
You are probably right about the dealer repainting the car, I'll know more when I check out the cowl tag next time I go see the car.
I was just curious because some 70's Lincolns had a landau-roof delete.
Would it decrease the "value" in any way if it was done by the dealer instead of the factory?

jaunty75

OK, this is not an invoice or a receipt, this is the car's original window sticker that came with it from the factory, which is a pretty cool thing to have. The entry that says "finish, two-tone, magic mirror" shows that the two-tone paint job was done by the factory. Up above, it says that the car's color is "cranberry red," with a code of 7411. I think that this might actually be two codes, with the '74" referring to the cranberry red, and the 11 referring to the roof. Here's the 1973 exterior color guide, and note that 74 is cranberry red while 11 is "cameo white." Does the car have a white roof?

I'm not sure what the "trim 45" to the right of the color name means.




As far as the car's value, what color it is has essentially no effect. Two-tone or not doesn't matter, either. The full-size cars are not terribly valuable to begin with, and anyone who seriously wanted a car like this but wanted it to be a different color could have it repainted.

Enjoy the car.

Newsmobile69

Yeah, it's red and white. Thx for your help
I just wrote black/white in case the seller (or her grand grand son in this case) is checking out the forums here. On that note, could you please remove the window sticker picture for now? I'll post it again as soon as I legally own the car in case people here want to see one.

Concerning the price: I'm currently living in Europe and you would not believe the prices those cars go for, between 15-20 k Euros in mint condition. Nobody gave a crap about full size behemoths for years and they were all parted out and stuff, but now people start paying attention, maybe because muscle/pony cars in equally good condition are practically unaffordable for the average working guy.

jaunty75

I removed it, but I doubt it matters in the slightest as there is no personal information on it.

I'm not what the purpose of all the secrecy is or all of the mis-stating of the car's appearance is all about, anyway. Who cares if the sellers are looking at this site? You have a right to ask any questions about the car to anyone you want. You're not disparaging them or the car in any way.

I wouldn't be so paranoid!

Newsmobile69

I know,I'll try to get better But the VIN number was on there
I'm just careful these days, a couple of years ago I was zeroing in on a Mercury Cougar Eliminator clone, which turned out to be a real Eliminator. Some other guy bought it right from under my nose because I posted some pictures on a message board and he obviously recognized what a bargain it was. But that probably won't happen with a Ninety-Eight.

BTW one last question for now: The clock is the only thing that's not working. What do you recommend? Try to repair it, get a used one or something else.

jaunty75

So what? VIN's are public information. Where is it displayed on the car? Under the windshield on the driver's side, and you read it by standing outside the car. Anyone can come up to this car while it's sitting in a parking lot, parked out on the street, or any other public place and read the VIN.

As far as someone stealing this out from under you, yes, that is unlikely, and it would be true even if you post photos of the window sticker and the car's VIN and told us what the real colors of the car are.

Paranoia is a healthy thing, but it's unnecessary here.

Allan R

Welcome aboard and congrats on the potential purchase of your 'new' 1973 Ninety Eight. IMO it's one of the finest looking large Oldsmobiles produced. I had a 1973 Custom Cruiser (like Dan's) and remember all too well what nice rides they were.

Dan has you covered as far as explaining what magic mirror finishes were. No big deal there. What I'm posting here for you are 2 excerpts from:
1: Dealer promo literature from 1973 showing the options,
2: Direct from the SPECS booklet showing the two tone option/cost.

These should help reassure you as to what you're looking at on the original window sticker. BTW, keep that sticker and don't lose it. I'd even frame it because there aren't a lot of actual documents like that around to validate the cars history. The moldings that separate the upper/lower trim colors are exactly the same ones used for vinyl top installation, so if you ever decide you'd like that option? The trim is already there.

What you might also find surprising is that these big top of the line cars did NOT come automatically loaded up with options. Almost everything that gave them their opulence was an option. I've said this before, it is my opinion that Olds really hurt their sales by this marketing strategy. I honestly believe the Ninety Eight would have been more of a Legend and brand leader if it had come fully loaded; as befitting of such an upscale machine. Obviously the bean counters and GM market analysts didn't share my thoughts on this. It makes me wonder if this wasn't something that contributed to the downfall of Oldsmobile and allowed the other upscale brand leaders like Cadillac and Buick to survive....

Sorry for the quality of the scanned/.pdf images. They get the message across though.

Allan R

The VIN on my 1972 Cutlass S is 3G87H2M208783 and it was built at Lansing Fisher Body works the first week of April 1972. It was completed on the second shift Lansing Assembly line on April 10, 1972. I could care less who sees this because it's got my name on the title (and insurance) and Bill of Sale. So without those 2 documents, no one has a snowballs chance in hell to register it as theirs.

re: clock. The clock is a simple mechanical electrical unit that typically never kept accurate time even when it was new. Chances are (very high) that the mechanism just needs to be cleaned really well and lubricated with light gear oil. You could likely do that yourself or have it sent out to a local auto clock restorer. Give it a shot yourself before you send it out. Chances are a clock restorer will ask if you want the unit reconditioned as OEM or with quartz movement. Quartz is better for accuracy and costs about the same as OEM, but doesn't have the 'sweep' seconds' hand.

Allan R

I keep hearing voices [no i don't - YES, I do - I don't know what to think - then I'll tell you!!!] but they are saying so many things i don't understand [you're not supposed to understand, listen to my voice - NO! I don't want to - (slap slap slap) Ok I'll listen, just don't slap me anymore]... help!!

Voices - 2
Others - who cares?

Newsmobile69

I'm back. Sorry it took me so long to come up with another question.
How do you call those little blueish glass/plastic pieces right above the light switch (and other places too) and how hard is it to get them? I can take a picture of mine if you don't know what I mean.

Allan R

They are called light diffusers. They are repopped for A body, but I think the ones for B Body you need to find a donor car.

jaunty75

You mean the two blue/green plastic pieces at the top on either side of the map light in this photo.





Those are the dash courtesy lights, and there are two on each side. They dim or brighten along with the speedometer illumination bulbs as you rotate the headlight switch. They're not just the lenses, but they hold the bulbs as well. They're not reproduced that I've ever found, so any replacements have to come from donor cars.

The big problem with these is that, after so many years, they become very brittle, and any replacements are just as old and just as brittle. The service manual says that the way to get them out is to pry them down with a small screwdriver as they just snap into place, and you have to pull them down if you ever need to replace the bulb.

But if you do pull them down, BE CAREFUL, because they will break very easily. The upside is that the same design was used, I believe, for '71 through '73 full-size Olds, so any Delta 88, 98, or Custom Cruiser of those three model years can be a donor.

Allan R

Good info to remember Dan. I didn't realize the courtesy lights were different in construction than the A body cars. So it's all a complete unit? BTW, your right side dash setup looks identical to what I had in my 73 CC. Same color too.

jaunty75

I assume they're different from A-bodies. I've not heard otherwise. Yes, the bulb clips into the top of each of these dash lights.

Except that was an old photo, and it now looks like this.





Yes, I've permanently altered the dash. I figured I wanted a good, modern radio, and I didn't want to put it on the transmission hump, hang it under the dash, or hide it in the glovebox, and I did't want any of those "retro" radios or to have a period radio rebuilt with modern innards.

A station wagon is never going to be hugely valuable, so modifying it this way won't affect its value much, in my opinion, if I ever decide to sell it.

Allan R

Yes, A bodies are just light diffusers. The lights are contained in separate metal pods and the lenses are reproduced.

Alpine?? meh. I had bad luck with Alpine. Hope yours works well.

WTH?? Did you tape that left light in place???

jaunty75

Yep. Had to put a little piece there to hold it up. As I said, these things are very fragile, and the lens won't stay in place without it as the little tab on that side broke off at some point over the last 41 years. But you never see it because you never look at the dash from this angle, and, heck, one has to do what one has to do!

MDchanic

For whatever it's worth, those lights on the B-bodies are called "flood lights."

They are not technically courtesy lights because they don't come on when you open the doors, but rather come on when the headlights are on, so you can see the dashboard controls.
They were standard, and not an option like the A-body lights.

My radio is mounted the exact same way - it's easy, and, like you say, these will never be ultra valuable. Also, I made sure to procure an unmolested dash pod first, so it can be changed back if necessary .

Oh, and Newsmobile, I hope you're not negotiating for a very high price for that car - they're not super valuable. Collector Car Market Review shows 1974 4-door 98s being worth $1,450 to $4,250 from #4 to #3 condition.

- Eric

jaunty75

Good point. I used the term "courtesy" loosely. Thank you for the clarification.

Allan R

Ah ha ha ha, you guys are so courteous about describing the lighting. I stand corrected too.

I think that white switched light would qualify as part of the courtesy lighting package though. Good comments guys.

jaunty75

We are talking about "courtesy" lights, after all. Seems appropriate to be courteous when doing so.

It was officially called a "map light." You could turn it on to have some interior illumination that didn't require turning on the dome light, etc. The passenger could consult a map without making it more difficult for the driver to see. These kinds of lights are in many modern cars now, often mounted on the rearview mirror or on the roof above it.

This scan of the '73 Dealer Specs book is not the easiest to read, but if you along the left-most column about half-way down, you see as standard equipment "Lamps, Instrument Panel Courtesy and Map."

In fact, I take back my "I stand corrected" comment above. Those panel illumination lamps we were talking about weren't called "flood" lights, they really were called courtesy lamps. It's right there in the Specs book!

Allan R

I know for sure that the 1972 A body line had a separate harness for the 'courtesy lighting'. It included:

2 lower lights (one above each kickpanel)
1 light for the headlight switch
1 extra light for the left side of the steering wheel (there's automatically one above the AC or Heater)
1 light for the ashtray
1 rearview mirror light (switched of course)
1 switched light like your CC (located just below the ashtray)
1 glove box light

Well I just checked the source of sources for information on what to call this. I know the 72 CSM will represent the 73 dash almost identically so I looked that up. You sir, are correct. They describe the testing for trouble with the 'courtesy' lighting system. See section 12.

MDchanic

The Chassis Service Manual begs to quibble with the SPECS Guide:





- Eric

jaunty75

In looking through the '73 CSM myself, both are correct. Eric is correct that these particular lights are called "flood lamps" in the service manual. But Allan is correct in that the troubleshooting diagnosis chart under which they fall is labeled "Dome or 1/4 Lamp and Courtesy Lamp Diagnosis." (Page 12-23)

I think the flood lamps are a subset of the courtesy lamps. All flood lamps are courtesy lamps but not all courtesy lamps are flood lamps.

ThePackRat

I believe they may have been called flood lamps in the bulb spec section of the owners manual as well (no longer have an OM to double-check tho).

One nice thing about upgrading to a modern radio in the 71-73 Toro-88-98-CCSW's ... is the fact that "pod" is a simple "R&R" & not a permanent part of the instrument panel itself.

If you do decide to modify one ...

You can track down an untouched spare before you even get started &/or do the same if you want to replace one someone has already modified & go back to a original type radio.

jaunty75

The '73 Owner's Manual does refer to them as "Instrument Panel Flood Lights," but, interestingly, the manual refers to the Map Light, the term used in the dealer specs book and the service manual, as simply a "courtesy light."

The Lamp Specifications section of the owner's manual calls them, again, Instrument Panel Flood Lights, but it calls the bulb in the map light a "map lamp."

As I said, all of these lights are "courtesy" lights of one type or another. Some are flood lights, some are map lights, some are dome lights, some are glovebox lights, etc. All are subcategories of the broad category of courtesy lights.

Newsmobile69

Looks like I stirred up quite a discussion here lol.
So to sum things up: I'm screwed, no reproduction, 1971-1973 olds only, and the lense + bulb were sold as one unit and not seperately? Does anybody here happen to know the part number?
Rockauto.com has tons of stuff, but the pictures are tiny and the contradictions about the exact name doesn't make it easier.
I'll keep my eyes open, but if anybody here happens to stumble across them somewhere please send me a message, I would really appreciate it. I need one lense/bulb unit plus one lense. Or if you have some to spare, I offer 100 bucks.

@Mdchanic: The picture was just a random one that popped up first on google, my 2door 73 98 is pretty much perfect, except for the now infamous courtersy map flood whatever lights and the clock.

MDchanic

No, the lens and socket are one unit. The bulb is separate.

You need to go to a junkyard. That's where I got mine.

- Eric

jaunty75

Try this guy:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/FRONT-GRILLS...E:B:SS:US:1123


He's apparently parting out a '73 Custom Cruiser. He calls it a "Country" Cruiser.

Newsmobile69

Just one last time to make sure: All 71-73 full size Olds have those exact same ones I'm looking for? Just those three Olds model years, nothing else? The ones from Buick Electra or Pontiac Safari won't fit?
I finally found a guy who takes "requests" and drives around from junkyard to junkyard with a list, I just have to make sure he gets the correct information from me.

Allan R

Guaranteed the 71-73 Delta 88 and Ninety Eight models are compatible donors. re: Buick Electra 225? I looked at the dashes and can't see any indication they use the same flood lights, same with Pontiac.

jaunty75

To remove all doubt, why not just take a photo of the dash and/or one of these lights and email it to the guy? Then he'll know exactly what he's looking for. It's the digital age now. Photos are a dime a million. There should be no reason for ambiguity here on the part of the guy doing the looking for you.

If you don't have one to take a photo of, below is a photo of the right side of my dash, and you can see the lights at the top. They're a bit disheveled because I was in the process of dealing with them, but it certainly shows what you're looking for. Feel free to download this photo to your computer and emailing it to him, or just print it out and give it to him if you'll see him in person.

76 Regency

Hello. Nice to see another mid 70's 98 owner on here Do you have the car now? I'm not sure about the clocks from '73 but I can honestly say that the '76 clocks are extremely accurate. I never have to adjust the time on either of my cars' clocks.

I recently repaired one of my own that had stopped working and now it's working just fine again.

As for the lack of a vinyl top. I've seen plenty of cars without vinyl tops as it was an option (half or full cover) but I don't know that I've ever heard of a "two-tone" combo like this on a '70's 98. Of course, there were lots of things that were special ordered at the dealer so it doesn't surprise me.

Post some pics of your 98 when you can.

John

Allan R

Forgot to add: ALL 1971-73 Custom Cruiser wagons are also compatible donors.

Newsmobile69

The 98 is on both sides, you just can't see it here on the left because of the sun.




Doesn't look like a hybrid.

76 Regency

Beautiful 98! I have to say that I really like the look of the painted roof in a different color. From any distance, you would assume it's a vinyl top but you don't have to deal with the issues that can come with vinyl and you still get to have a shiney roof. I like it!!

Newsmobile69

Agreed, I like vinyl roofs, but they are not worth the headaches for me.


Back to those lights: Do you experts here think the ones I'm looking for are included here? The ones pictured don't look right, but I've never seen them in person and the guy who sells them doesn't reply.


http://www.ebay.ca/itm/1971-1972-197...item1c2a745fb4

MDchanic

Nope.

- Eric

Newsmobile69

Hi there,

I'm back with another stupid & easy question, should be a piece of cake for native speakers of the English language
I have some troubles with the whole nomenclature (molding, trim, chrome strip, scalp molding and who knows what else) so I'm have troubles finding what I'm looking for:

How do you call that strip the arrows point at on the picture? Some a-hole kicked my car when he was running across the street to catch a bus and a little piece broke off, maybe one inch.