BangScreech4-4-2

Stood for "Central Office Production Order". My understanding is that it was originally a process usually used by GM to assemble odd combinations of options or deletes on cars for fleet or other large wholesale orders. Fred Gibb, a Chevy dealer, pioneered its use to circumvent corporate restrictions on engine displacement in high performance applications, but the process to order a run of COPO cars would have been the same at any GM division.

Diego

Ever see a COPO Pontiac?

What about a Buick?

Sorry, not convinced it was a GM thing. Still looking into it.

However, Gibb did not pioneer its use at all - if anything, Yenko did.

BangScreech4-4-2

There were all sorts of COPO Pontiacs and Buicks ordered for fleet sales and other special purposes. They just don't show up in Hemmings, that's all.


The '67-'68 Yenko 427 Camaros were engine swaps, as were all 427 Chevy F- and A-bodies prior to Gibbs's use of the COPO process.

Diego

Can you show me one of these Pontiac or Buick COPOs?

Fleet order does not mean COPO to these brands.

As far as COPO is concerned, you should look up the Sports Car Conversation that Yenko had for 1968, as well as the TH400 L78 Nova that Fred Gibb did the same year - both of those are good examples of COPO orders that dealers did due to their clout.

In contrast, the ZL1 order that Gibb did was not pioneering - it merely was large order of a 427 that already had precedent with the L72 COPOs.

BangScreech4-4-2

We're not having a Sports Car Conversation, we're having a Muscle Car Conversation.


However ... the 9737 Sports Car Conversion did not include a 427 as the COPO 9560(ZL1) and 9561(L72) did.


IIRC, ALL 427 Novas were swaps.

If I could find a picture of a radio-delete, rubber mat four-door Buick Special with extra ashtrays and heavy-duty cooling that was part of a COPO run for the phone company in 1966, I would, because that would be indicative of GM's intended use for the COPO system. However, none exist, mainly because boring cars like this all ended up in the crusher.

Diego

Conversation . . . ha! Yeah, I meant "Conversion."

But 9737 still was a performance COPO item.

And, yeah, prevailing wisdom suggests the 427 Novas were swaps.

But any fleet-ordered Olds, Buick, or Pontiac did not go through the COPO system because it was a channel created by Chevrolet for their needs.

At least that's what I believe for the moment.

BangScreech4-4-2

Believe whatever makes you happy. Have a good night.

Rallye469

Not sure if you understand what rare is.
Regardless of how a car comes into being, through factory or dealer options...
if there weren't many made, or if there aren't many left...it's rare.

Is there some hidden meaning to rare that I'm not getting?

-Pete

Diego

Okay, so in this tangent, I've tried to learn more about this, although not to my satisfaction.

Here's a Fisher document - notice anything interesting about this, Alan or anyone?

BangScreech4-4-2

I'm trying to read it with a magnifying glass. Can you either embiggen the image or give me a hint?

Diego

Car is a Pontiac - I've removed the VIN and a few other identifiers but the engine code is still there to show it's a Pontiac.

Otherwise, look at the top left and you'll see it says "Chev" with a few other characters. And at the bottom (with the bracket) says "Highway (or COPO Front) Tires."

In the photo that Alan posted, it says "COPO F & SO" or something like that. I guess my question is that if anyone is so sure that there were Oldsmobile COPOs, can you explain what F & SO is?

BangScreech4-4-2

Nope. You've gone beyond my pay grade. Allan?

Allan R

That scan is very hard to read, even after I enlarged it. Your embed code says "1969 Firebird 350 - chassis broadcast sheet (2).jpg (1 of 1) April 16th, 2015 11:12 PM"

Ok, so? Obviously there are elements of Chev production that Pontiac likely saw fit to duplicate. Am I missing something here??

As I've mentioned before, I only can speculate on the COPO F and SO. I strongly believe that the COPO F is an authorization from the Oldsmobile production manager to alter Factory (F) standards for that particular car. The SO I believe to mean 'Special Order'. So Deigo, is that within parameters you can work with?

Diego

Why would Pontiac use a broadcast sheet that is marked with "Chev" in the corner?

Perhaps because Fisher used one generic sheet for all brands on the same line?

So why are you so sure that the COPO designation was used by Oldsmobile, but you can't even be sure what F or SO is?

I'm not saying I'm right; I'm just questioning the conclusion you've arrived at with such little evidence.

Allan R

Well son, it's like this. The broadcast car that came from MY car has COPO and SO on it. THAT's I guess what you'd call very little evidence? THAT's also why I am sure that COPO designation was used by Oldsmobile. I posted a pic showing the box for COPO filled in with W29 and you still have trouble with it? I gave you the picture evidence you asked for. Sounds like your memory is selective on what you choose to believe. Go back and review. FYI? There is Nothing on the broadcast cards I posted that show any evidence of any other brand except Oldsmobile. All the information related to body style and model are related to the body and brand identified on the sheet. Good enough for you?

You asked me to provide an interpretation of what COPO F and SO was. I did that. You can accept or deny what you wish. I'm sticking with my interpretation until you or someone else has conclusive proof that it's wrong, and can post evidence to support that claim.

You posted:
You're theory may be plausible but to use your own words, "I'm just questioning the conclusion you've arrived at with such little evidence"

Diego

When you use the word "Son" to refer to me, it shows that you're not interested in trying to solve the riddle - it's just about your ego.

So far, you've provided no evidence that Oldsmobile used the COPO channel. There's a Fisher broadcast sheet that shows the designation, but don't even know what the other designation means, plus the codes under the heading were regular production Oldsmobile items.

Additionally, I showed that Pontiac used a similar broadcast sheet because, by golly, Fisher also had a hand in chassis besides Oldsmobile's. And that little "Chev. 100 C1 Rev. 5/68" is a bit curious, doncha think?

Now check out this Hurst/Olds broadcast for the body - see the lack of COPO codes? See the "Olds" designation in the upper-right corner?

Sorry, but you're not providing any conclusive evidence to support your theory that Oldsmobile had a COPO channel.

GAOldsman

F stands for Fleet. As in COPO F SO stands for Central (Corporate) Office Production Order - Fleet - Special Order

Although COPO was the term used by Chebby, as with all GM cars that were Special Ordered from a dealership in this time period had to go through the main office to be "okay'ed" and then the build would be directed to the Regional Zone Manager to make sure it was carried out for his dealer. As in the case for my car. So even a Fleet of police cars would need to be "okay'ed" by the main office before anything could take place. I.E. corporate permission or in other words special production order.

As far as the OP's post about a '71 SL Cutlass, the factory didn't build it that way. Most likely a dealer or customized touch by some shop.

bassinguy

I agree with GAOldsman. I have lived in Saint Louis Mo. my entire life. Granted back in 71. I was only 17 at the time,now 60. At 17 I bought my first Olds Cutlass a 69 Cutlass Supreme. I used to scout out the 4 or 5 dealers in and around the area to look at their cars on their lots. I seem to recall that Olds dealers in the Saint Louis area were selling a specially named Cutlass with the SL badging as a promotion. Hence the SL badges (Saint Louis) Any other Missourians seem to recall. Bassinguy

BangScreech4-4-2

Sounds about right. I'm certainly willing to concede that not every division may have referred to it as "COPO" but the process was the same.

Allan R

Honestly I don't think you are either. None of your 'evidence' shows me conclusive proof that Olds didn't have a COPO assimilation. I've seen 68/69 Hurst Olds broadcast sheets before. This isn't something new. Since you're the one arguing COPO, I think it's your onus to provide the proof it doesn't exist, not mine to prove it does. I believe Scot's comment is more accurate than anything you've posted.

Glenn, Thanks for that clue about the St. Louis promotion.

Diego

Alan, the burden of proof is not on me - you made the assertion that there were Olds COPOs. I merely offered deductive reasoning and evidence that chipped away at your assertion. You have provided no evidence other than it mentions COPO on a Fisher - not Oldsmobile - document.

Take some responsibility for your part. Otherwise, I think we both can probably agree that the answer is "we don't know yet."

GAOldsman

Either way as it was in say the early '70's, one would have to have the okay from headquarters (Lansiing Corporate) or else my Grandfather would've had his W30 Cutlass Supreme as he wanted to order for my Grandmother. Instead he got a U Code Cutlass Supreme with 442 Suspension (FE2), Dual Gate (W26), (W25)) OAI Hood & etc. and Special Order Cadillac Two Tone paint. The Zone Manager only wished he could fulfill every request, but ultimately without a production order or go-ahead from Lansing, his hands were tied. Tomato or tomoto it was a COPO or SCO that made it all possible or impossible.

Diego

SCO is a Buick thing and, like COPO, I don't think it should be used in the same breath as Oldsmobile - they are not generic terms to be applied to any brand.

Sorry, not gonna be one to agree on tomato/tomahto. :-)

GAOldsman

The document you posted for a 1969 Oldsmobile specifically stated SCO as in Special Car Order




"Build Per S C O"

Diego

Veeery eeenteresting!



There's a lot of SCO items I've seen pertaining to Buicks. Never seen anything like that relating to Olds. Hmmm....