1966 Toronado Frame Off
November 23rd, 2014, 08:21 AM
#83
let's make a big step....
Almost there…or one weird test drive..;-)
It seems after two years, some good days, some bad ones my ’66 Toronado is coming together.
Assembly is almost complete except some parts I have to look out for the next year. I could use a new rear bumper and new trim around the front and rear window..and yes some small stuff here and there, I don’t have the original jack for example.
Today the Toronado got it’s first car wash, still without the drain tubes in the back, so two buckets had to do the job. After the dust was washed away it started looking real good. The sun was coming out behind the clouds so I thought let’s make a test drive and take some pics.
My daughter and her boyfriend were joining me.
So the party of three was heading for a nice place to shoot some pics, the old guy, me, driving nervous as one could get after two years of work under his ***.. and the car without insurance and not registered….
First thing one of us saw were the headlights half full with water…” Oh, California car, it still doesn’t like rain” was my first thought. But that was a simple one. To have it registered in Germany the old sealed beam headlights have to be replaced by new ones with replaceable bulbs. I couldn’t install the back cover of the new lights because of the limited space….now I have to think of something to keep the water out of them…
Next were the pictures I wanted to take of that clean freshly assembled Toronado with the sun shining and a bright blue sky…
I opened the hood and took out the camera… after some pics the battery of the camera was was flat and on top of that I realized I didn’t even had the memory card in it’s slot…. That’s about all of it for the pics….;-)
Looking around in the engine bay I saw oil dripping out of the right snorkel of the air cleaner housing… “What the hell is that…” I thought….. Felix, my daughters boyfriend asked “Does it have an oil bath air cleaner?” I thought out loud “ Now it may have…..”
We went home and I started digging into that problem. The oil is coming out of the closed crankcase ventilation system, it was soaked into the air cleaner through the filter in the right valve cover. I started the engine without that filter and except a little oil smoke nothing left that filter. Also the engine oil filler neck and cap were clean and bone dry.
I removed the left valve cover to check the drain holes… clean…. I squirted some oil in each drain hole with a syringe, nothing blocked, I could even here the oil drippin’ in the pan.
My next step will be to recheck timing, dwell and vac and give the carb a short runover of it’s settings.
I was told from the last owner of the car that the engine had been overhauled and as I pulled the manifold and oil pan I could see new pistons, cam. and valvetrain. Me testdrives before I tore the Toronado apart didn’t show any oil in the air cleaner… we will see…. If anyone got some ideas to point me in a certain direction pls. do so.
Harald
It seems after two years, some good days, some bad ones my ’66 Toronado is coming together.
Assembly is almost complete except some parts I have to look out for the next year. I could use a new rear bumper and new trim around the front and rear window..and yes some small stuff here and there, I don’t have the original jack for example.
Today the Toronado got it’s first car wash, still without the drain tubes in the back, so two buckets had to do the job. After the dust was washed away it started looking real good. The sun was coming out behind the clouds so I thought let’s make a test drive and take some pics.
My daughter and her boyfriend were joining me.
So the party of three was heading for a nice place to shoot some pics, the old guy, me, driving nervous as one could get after two years of work under his ***.. and the car without insurance and not registered….
First thing one of us saw were the headlights half full with water…” Oh, California car, it still doesn’t like rain” was my first thought. But that was a simple one. To have it registered in Germany the old sealed beam headlights have to be replaced by new ones with replaceable bulbs. I couldn’t install the back cover of the new lights because of the limited space….now I have to think of something to keep the water out of them…
Next were the pictures I wanted to take of that clean freshly assembled Toronado with the sun shining and a bright blue sky…
I opened the hood and took out the camera… after some pics the battery of the camera was was flat and on top of that I realized I didn’t even had the memory card in it’s slot…. That’s about all of it for the pics….;-)
Looking around in the engine bay I saw oil dripping out of the right snorkel of the air cleaner housing… “What the hell is that…” I thought….. Felix, my daughters boyfriend asked “Does it have an oil bath air cleaner?” I thought out loud “ Now it may have…..”
We went home and I started digging into that problem. The oil is coming out of the closed crankcase ventilation system, it was soaked into the air cleaner through the filter in the right valve cover. I started the engine without that filter and except a little oil smoke nothing left that filter. Also the engine oil filler neck and cap were clean and bone dry.
I removed the left valve cover to check the drain holes… clean…. I squirted some oil in each drain hole with a syringe, nothing blocked, I could even here the oil drippin’ in the pan.
My next step will be to recheck timing, dwell and vac and give the carb a short runover of it’s settings.
I was told from the last owner of the car that the engine had been overhauled and as I pulled the manifold and oil pan I could see new pistons, cam. and valvetrain. Me testdrives before I tore the Toronado apart didn’t show any oil in the air cleaner… we will see…. If anyone got some ideas to point me in a certain direction pls. do so.
Harald
November 23rd, 2014, 08:54 AM
#85
Registered Luser
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: LI,NY
Posts: 3,783
Congrats Harald! Nice to see a first gen Toro get what it deserves. Tough to see colors in the pics....what color is it, and what color did you do the engine and air cleaner? As far as your issues, par for the course when working bugs out on a fresh resto!
January 17th, 2015, 09:50 AM
#89
carb work
Hi there, short update on the Toronado.
After the first test drive and some efforts trying to dial the carb in I went back a step and decided to give the carb a thorough overhaul first. I ordered Cliff Ruggles book and an overhaul kit together with a bushing kit for the worn primary shaft.
When tearing apart the carb I noticed that there is significant air horn and main body wrappage. What the heck is with that Quadrajet ??...
ok.. breath in and breath out and think.....
With the help of some sources on the internet I built a jig to straighten the carb parts. With some heat cycles and careful tightening of the fasteners I was able to get that thing straight again.
Next were the overhaul and bushing kit. So far everything went fine and the carb is back on the engine. Tomorrow will be the day...... I'll let you know what happens..
Harald
After the first test drive and some efforts trying to dial the carb in I went back a step and decided to give the carb a thorough overhaul first. I ordered Cliff Ruggles book and an overhaul kit together with a bushing kit for the worn primary shaft.
When tearing apart the carb I noticed that there is significant air horn and main body wrappage. What the heck is with that Quadrajet ??...
ok.. breath in and breath out and think.....
With the help of some sources on the internet I built a jig to straighten the carb parts. With some heat cycles and careful tightening of the fasteners I was able to get that thing straight again.
Next were the overhaul and bushing kit. So far everything went fine and the carb is back on the engine. Tomorrow will be the day...... I'll let you know what happens..
Harald
January 17th, 2015, 10:11 AM
#92
carb wrappage
I used an industrial oven . Temp was appr. 150 deg celsius.
I mounted the jig, screwd in all the bolts and tightened them a little bit. Then into the oven for 1h . After that I let it cool down and the bolts were loose again. Then the next cycle.. tightening, heating and cooling down... after 3 cycles everything was fine.
Harald
I mounted the jig, screwd in all the bolts and tightened them a little bit. Then into the oven for 1h . After that I let it cool down and the bolts were loose again. Then the next cycle.. tightening, heating and cooling down... after 3 cycles everything was fine.
Harald
March 14th, 2015, 02:06 AM
#93
almost there......
The Toronado runs, is registered and is a fun to drive.
Major drawback might be that I have to remove the engine / gearbox again after the first season. The engine was overhauled, I checked while the oil pan, valve covers and intake were off. New timing gear, new pistons, camshaft, lifters and valvetrain.
Now I have some low oil pressure issues (>40 PSI when cold at about 2000rpm, hot idling in P 8,5 PSI, hot idling in D 7PSI) I use Castrol Classic 20W50 oil. Those numbers could still be ok but I had to learn that I am missing one oil baffle, the one that keeps the oil in the sump area when braking. So now every time I brake harder the oil light lights up for a few seconds.
Next point is oil consumption. Not quite sure but is seems the fresh engine uses / burns a lot of oil and that with new valve stem seals. After ideling a while when you blib the throttle there is a lot more smoke out of the exhaust, although not blueish....
So could be kind of normal for a rebuild engine, the last owner didn't complete the restoration so he didn't put a lot of miles on the rebuild engine.... I will watch this closely. See some pics of the engine and the missing baffle...
Harald
Major drawback might be that I have to remove the engine / gearbox again after the first season. The engine was overhauled, I checked while the oil pan, valve covers and intake were off. New timing gear, new pistons, camshaft, lifters and valvetrain.
Now I have some low oil pressure issues (>40 PSI when cold at about 2000rpm, hot idling in P 8,5 PSI, hot idling in D 7PSI) I use Castrol Classic 20W50 oil. Those numbers could still be ok but I had to learn that I am missing one oil baffle, the one that keeps the oil in the sump area when braking. So now every time I brake harder the oil light lights up for a few seconds.
Next point is oil consumption. Not quite sure but is seems the fresh engine uses / burns a lot of oil and that with new valve stem seals. After ideling a while when you blib the throttle there is a lot more smoke out of the exhaust, although not blueish....
So could be kind of normal for a rebuild engine, the last owner didn't complete the restoration so he didn't put a lot of miles on the rebuild engine.... I will watch this closely. See some pics of the engine and the missing baffle...
Harald
Last edited by harascho; March 14th, 2015 at 02:13 AM.
June 12th, 2016, 09:37 AM
#100
Lets make a big leap forward......
I got some disc brake parts from my friend Nico . The less desirable '67 4 piston calipers with knuckles, hubs and ONE rotor.
I will take this as a challenge. First of all a proper set of 4 piston fixed calipers is race technology compared to soccer mum's one piston sliding caliper..;-)
And second I do like challenges. I am convinded that there is a kind of rotor out there that can be machined to fit the '67 hub I've got. I don't care about the large, expensive, old style wheel bearings as I bought a new set last year which will be transferred to the disc brake hubs. That said here are some pics of the setup. I had to build a manual lever oil pump setup to press out the pistons with diesel. Worked like a charm. The bores in the calipers can be restored, the pistons themselves need attention. They're not stainless steel, but chromed mild steel. Either I buy the expensive replacement pistons or I will have mine coated in a suitable, brake fluid resistant, coating. We will see what the costs of both ways are...
I got some disc brake parts from my friend Nico . The less desirable '67 4 piston calipers with knuckles, hubs and ONE rotor.
I will take this as a challenge. First of all a proper set of 4 piston fixed calipers is race technology compared to soccer mum's one piston sliding caliper..;-)
And second I do like challenges. I am convinded that there is a kind of rotor out there that can be machined to fit the '67 hub I've got. I don't care about the large, expensive, old style wheel bearings as I bought a new set last year which will be transferred to the disc brake hubs. That said here are some pics of the setup. I had to build a manual lever oil pump setup to press out the pistons with diesel. Worked like a charm. The bores in the calipers can be restored, the pistons themselves need attention. They're not stainless steel, but chromed mild steel. Either I buy the expensive replacement pistons or I will have mine coated in a suitable, brake fluid resistant, coating. We will see what the costs of both ways are...
June 12th, 2016, 06:21 PM
#103
Registered User
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Dallas-Fort Worth
Posts: 3,114
Harascho, that's very nice and well executed!!!! If I ever get the 64 F-85 Pro-Touring build done, my last challenge is a either a 65-66 Starfire or a 66-67 Toro. Great car, the Toro will smoke the front tires with the 425....( i remember)
June 17th, 2016, 10:46 AM
#105
Rotors for '67 / '68 Toronado and Eldorado
I did some measurements ( all in mm) It should be possible to find a rotor that could be machined to fit
Harald
Harald
Last edited by harascho; June 17th, 2016 at 10:51 AM.
June 17th, 2016, 11:03 AM
#106
Registered User
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,168
I had those disc brakes on a 67 many years ago. I can tell you from experience that a garden variety rebuild won't last long if it works at all. You will probably need the bores bushed to standard size and the new pistons may be worth it if they are good quality. They will make a big difference in stopping the car if you can make them leakproof. Good luck!
June 17th, 2016, 11:10 AM
#107
Did I write somewhere that I intend to make a "garden variety rebuild" ;-)
The bores are fine and I will blast the pistons and have them re-chromed at a shop which normally re-chromes industrial cylinder rods.. hard, smooth chrome of very high quality. This and new seals in the bores should do the trick... these are not the first calipers I have to rebuild.
I read a lot about these leak prone 4 piston calipers but I do not see a real problem there? Do I miss something?
Harald
The bores are fine and I will blast the pistons and have them re-chromed at a shop which normally re-chromes industrial cylinder rods.. hard, smooth chrome of very high quality. This and new seals in the bores should do the trick... these are not the first calipers I have to rebuild.
I read a lot about these leak prone 4 piston calipers but I do not see a real problem there? Do I miss something?
Harald
August 8th, 2016, 08:14 PM
#111
Registered User
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Texas
Posts: 1,584
I talked to Muskegon Brakes in Michigan about stainless steel sleeving a set of 67 4 piston calipers, he said no problem. I think it was around $200 per caliper, cant really remember that was a couple of years ago that i talked to them. Their number is 231-766-2555. Its worth it IMO, brake fluid does collect moisture as im sure you know, and it will corrode the piston bores. The bores need to be perfect. I have stainless sleeved on my Vette for about 12 years now and they work great and do not leak. I will send them my 67 Olds calipers when i get to that point, for now i have single piston calipers on it. There maybe other places to get it done, probably in Germany too.
August 9th, 2016, 10:35 AM
#112
Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: South River, New Jersey
Posts: 3,515
I talked to Muskegon Brakes in Michigan about stainless steel sleeving a set of 67 4 piston calipers, he said no problem. I think it was around $200 per caliper, cant really remember that was a couple of years ago that i talked to them. Their number is 231-766-2555. Its worth it IMO, brake fluid does collect moisture as im sure you know, and it will corrode the piston bores. The bores need to be perfect. I have stainless sleeved on my Vette for about 12 years now and they work great and do not leak. I will send them my 67 Olds calipers when i get to that point, for now i have single piston calipers on it. There maybe other places to get it done, probably in Germany too.
I thought I read some where the pistons on the dual piston calipers were the same bore as the earlier corvette? , anyway I am probably mistaken. this is one fantastic build !!! thank you for sharing.
August 10th, 2016, 06:56 AM
#113
calipers
As far as my experience goes you cannot sleeve calipers where the seal is in the caliper bore. The respective sealing surface is the piston, therefore the piston surface is important and the bore in the caliper is not critical, except for a good seal groove.
The calipers which were usually sleeved are the types with the seals on the pistons, there the bore surface is important.
You cannot sleeve a bore with a seal groove in most of the cases as the remaining surface under the seals backside might be too thin..
Don't mix those two different styles.
Harald
The calipers which were usually sleeved are the types with the seals on the pistons, there the bore surface is important.
You cannot sleeve a bore with a seal groove in most of the cases as the remaining surface under the seals backside might be too thin..
Don't mix those two different styles.
Harald
October 18th, 2016, 05:03 AM
#114
Registered User
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Hanover, Maryland
Posts: 59
As far as my experience goes you cannot sleeve calipers where the seal is in the caliper bore. The respective sealing surface is the piston, therefore the piston surface is important and the bore in the caliper is not critical, except for a good seal groove.
The calipers which were usually sleeved are the types with the seals on the pistons, there the bore surface is important.
You cannot sleeve a bore with a seal groove in most of the cases as the remaining surface under the seals backside might be too thin..
Don't mix those two different styles.
Harald
The calipers which were usually sleeved are the types with the seals on the pistons, there the bore surface is important.
You cannot sleeve a bore with a seal groove in most of the cases as the remaining surface under the seals backside might be too thin..
Don't mix those two different styles.
Harald
November 13th, 2016, 12:08 AM
#115
Hi Bill,
did you check the breather on one of the valve covers? When I had the bad lifter set they were pumping that much oil to the rockers that the valve covers were flooded and oil was sucked into the air cleaner through the breather connection...
harald
did you check the breather on one of the valve covers? When I had the bad lifter set they were pumping that much oil to the rockers that the valve covers were flooded and oil was sucked into the air cleaner through the breather connection...
harald
November 14th, 2016, 03:18 AM
#116
Registered User
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Hanover, Maryland
Posts: 59
I inspected and cleaned the archaic PCV valve weeks ago. There is no breather element on my car.
I did notice the other day that much oil mist was being pumped out of from the tube that connects the valve cover to the air filter. I saw that happen when I had the tube disconnected from the air cleaner end.
My car currently doesn't want to start since I changed the ignition coil and the condenser in the distributor. Not sure what the problem is. Much trouble with these old cars. I spend more time fixing than driving it seems. Weather is getting cold and daylight shorter here in Maryland so I've lost ambition on working on these issues for awhile.
I wonder what the market is in Germany for a 1964 Oldsmobile 98 Custom Sport Coupe, 2 door, with factory 4 barrel, 245 hp, dual exhaust, buckets, console, and tach?
Thanks for your reply.
Your friend in America,
Bill Rutecki
Hanover, Maryland
I did notice the other day that much oil mist was being pumped out of from the tube that connects the valve cover to the air filter. I saw that happen when I had the tube disconnected from the air cleaner end.
My car currently doesn't want to start since I changed the ignition coil and the condenser in the distributor. Not sure what the problem is. Much trouble with these old cars. I spend more time fixing than driving it seems. Weather is getting cold and daylight shorter here in Maryland so I've lost ambition on working on these issues for awhile.
I wonder what the market is in Germany for a 1964 Oldsmobile 98 Custom Sport Coupe, 2 door, with factory 4 barrel, 245 hp, dual exhaust, buckets, console, and tach?
Thanks for your reply.
Your friend in America,
Bill Rutecki
Hanover, Maryland
November 16th, 2016, 11:45 AM
#117
Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: South River, New Jersey
Posts: 3,515
maybe start a thread?
Bill Maybe post your own thread in the engine section, Excess oil mist could be something minor like are you suppose to have a ventilated oil filler cap for crankcase ventilation? have you looked at the spark plugs? are they oily may be a sign of worn rings, really could be a lot of things but if your car isn't starting, maybe check for spark, if yes then check plugs, etc
November 21st, 2016, 08:52 AM
#118
Registered User
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Hanover, Maryland
Posts: 59
Thanks Eddie. I'll check the plugs. I think that they were a bit oily the last time I pulled them, but will pull them again to confirm.
I got the car running again. It was just a matter of a wire I somehow forgot to connect to the ignition coil that comes from the distributor. Once I connected the wire, the car started right up.
I got the car running again. It was just a matter of a wire I somehow forgot to connect to the ignition coil that comes from the distributor. Once I connected the wire, the car started right up.
August 25th, 2017, 11:40 PM
#119
time for some updates
Summary of the 1966 Toronado Front Disc Brake swap:
The calipers are rebuilt as are the steering knuckles with new bearings. The new rotors are in place and look like they were made for this application..
;-) Only things missing are the transfer tubes for the 4 piston Kelsey Hayes calipers. If anyone happens to have some OEM ones and could send them to classic tubes they will use them as a pattern and start building the 1967 Toronade Kelsey Hayes Tubes. As you see on the pics it was quite a way from that pile of rust to the rebuilt components..
Now I have to get my hands on some disc brake wheels. I am also thinking about aluminum wheels. I heard the word that a certain year of Mercedes Benz G Wagon wheels fit quite nicely. I would have to check for caliper clearance. I even have two pics of a friends car who mounted them.
The calipers are rebuilt as are the steering knuckles with new bearings. The new rotors are in place and look like they were made for this application..
;-) Only things missing are the transfer tubes for the 4 piston Kelsey Hayes calipers. If anyone happens to have some OEM ones and could send them to classic tubes they will use them as a pattern and start building the 1967 Toronade Kelsey Hayes Tubes. As you see on the pics it was quite a way from that pile of rust to the rebuilt components..Now I have to get my hands on some disc brake wheels. I am also thinking about aluminum wheels. I heard the word that a certain year of Mercedes Benz G Wagon wheels fit quite nicely. I would have to check for caliper clearance. I even have two pics of a friends car who mounted them.
August 25th, 2017, 11:51 PM
#120
another story
Along this thread I forgot to mention that I had to rebuilt the rebuilt engine a second time. This time I did it the German way: Do it once, do it right. The first rebuilt in CA had a mismatch of bore size and pistons, a bad hone job and junk chinesiumm components. This time, with the help of Mark Remmel located in Florida we did it the right way. It runs like a breeze...;-)
A mild cam, roller rockers, +0,0040 racetek pistons
A mild cam, roller rockers, +0,0040 racetek pistons
