diesel olds

I have seen several post about clones and I have come to the conclusion that people who own so called orignal cars look down on clones and I can aprieciate that but what makes a true 442. if a frame is changed because of rust, fenders,rear quarters,floor pan ect. If a vin number and cowl tag make a car or does it have to be documented back to the orignal owner and the car never restored because things change when a car is taken apart.Im not much for number matching but when does a car become a clone, at 40-50 years old they all have been repaired

m371961

My definition of a clone is taking, say a standard Cutlass and adding all the 442 goodies. Or a six cylinder Stang or Camero and adding the stuff to make a cobra or Z.
I don,t have a problem with it if it is advertised as such. Changing data plates or numbers or representing something it's not is another matter. Anything replaced just makes it rebuilt or restored, not original, not a survivor, except for wear items.
JMHO

diesel olds

is the main body the part the vin tag is attached to, the heart of the car or is a frame required whith proper date codes

diesel olds

I have a reason for asking this question I bought a severaly rusted 442 and have rebuilt it using several donor cars should i have crushed the 442 because of rust or am i wrong to use the vin number from that car on the new car that has been built from parts but includes many orignal components from the 442

ctosiflying

2x that!
You are correct in raising that questioning. My view is... it's my car and I will do what I want with it! Look i'm in the collision industry I can understand and respect a proper numbers matching restoration. But when it's all said and done the money, the time, the effort so on and so on you will have a trailer queen that the owner is scarred to take out on the street. Most people in our hobby do it to preserve a bit of history. Not the automotive type, but the memories one had when they were young that's why I'm building a clone 69 Hurst Olds! A buddy of mine in High School had one and I fell in love! I can't afford a real one so.... I'll build one but of the convertible pro touring flavor. That way, no one can accuse me of trying to pass my car off as anything other than an homage to an American icon. I know that people on this site will complain about 18" wheels, big brakes, newer radio, but hey I will be tooling around town with something that I can enjoy with the family and not worry about numbers matching nonsense. Enough of my rants! I enjoy everyone's cars on this site. I hope people enjoy mine. lol

vette442

That's not a clone, that's a rebody of a 442 that originally existed as a 442. A new bag of worms perhaps, but it's not a clone.

I have one really rare car where I face the same dilemma due to serious rust. Do I kill it off forever and scatter the remaining heart and soul parts to whoever buys them, or resurrect the car on a new platform? I have a drivetrain, tags, title and other remaining parts sitting in storage awaiting a decision.

Terry

MDchanic

You know the old story:

"I been to the museum, and I seen the original hatchet that George Washington used to chop down that cherry tree - the hande's been replaced three times, and the head's been replaced twice, but that there's the same hatchet, sure enough!"

- Eric

diesel olds

I like that !

aremann2

m371961 ditto

69ishHoliday

I considered creating a "Clone" or "Tribute" with my 69 Hardtop but decided not to go that route. I am using an OAI hood, aftermarket rear spoiler, a new posi and updated suspension, Edelbrock Camshaft and Intake, restored 1970 Q-Jet... it's not a tribute or a clone of anything else, it will be what it is in the end, and certainly worth less money than if I had made it a 69 Hurst Olds "Clone". I sometimes look at the cars advertised as "clones" and wonder if they are aged or failed fakes intended to fool a buyer, I'm sure that there are some of those out there. I do see cars I like on this site that are far better performers than a stock 442 and to me that is more, not less. JMHO - Steven

stan 65 cutlass

a clone is when you copy another car, be it an SS chevy , or a 442 olds. if you are modifying it to your liking? cool, isnt that a resto mod ?

jensenracing77

My opinion is that if it is rusted bad enough to need rebodied it is rusted bad enough to scrap. I for one will not even sell a car if i think it would get a VIN swap. I could be wrong but i think it is Illegal in all 50 states to swap VIN tags. If you need a new body you need to use the new bodys VIN and add all your 442 parts. Yes, Then it will no longer be original and would become a clone.

Alex1972CutlassS

I believe Vette442 is right! Congrats on saving the 442 for everyone to enjoy!
Alex in Idaho USA..

diesel olds

car will not be repersented for anything but what it is a 442 body doors and trunk lid on a cutlass frame with all components and a front off several rust free cars i have no intension of passing off a orignal car just wanted an opinion on a question that has buged me the firewall to the trunk has been replaced the intierior is not orignal to the car and the drive train is incorrect but does the vin and cowl tag make it a 442

MDchanic

Yes, but if you swap all the metal around the VIN tag...

- Eric

diesel olds

it most likley does not matter how it got restored the fact that someone has spent more time and money than the car will ever be worth just to perserve an old car is worth it to me no matter what you call it !!!

Diego

If I read this correctly, you transferred the VIN from the rusty car to the nicer car?

69ishHoliday

I looked at a pristine GTO a month or so ago that is expected to bring around 70K at an upcoming auction. It was created from four parts cars and is a simply stunning finished product. How different are the frames with 442 vs Cutlass?

diesel olds

no the body is orignal but that is about it

diesel olds

the frame is a few months newer( both cars built in framingham mass) the car is a 67 and i did not see any difference

69ishHoliday

Do it nicely and watch people fight over it when you're done.

Eddie Hansen

I have read this thread with interest and several similar threads over the years, I thought I would throw my perspective in as well, In MY Opinion there are several levels of “clones”
The first level is out and out Fraud, where a person is trying to pass a lesser model car off as the real mc coy, whether by buying a Vin Tag and title and applying it to a base model car, and represents it as original. It may or may not have the right equipment
· The Second Level, A guy who has a base model car, but wants the cool factor of a “muscle car, so he rebadges the car, finds all the correct pieces etc , but when asked calls it a clone and is forthcoming that it is a cutlass etc a replica if you will..
· Third Level, a Tribute, to me that is someone who builds a car, using original or better pieces, and uses the original version of the car as a guideline and a styling model, also forthcoming it started out as a base model. This would include restomods .
· Forth level, a legitimate car that has had items changed or swapped for whatever reason it is a real car, but may have non original engine etc it isn’t numbers matching but it started out as a real 442 maybe had engine upgrades 5 speed added etc etc this would also include restomods etc
· Then we have an all original car, it could be restored or a survivor, that has all it’s original equipment, etc , Numbers Matching as it were. ( and there could be several levels within each level I guess)

Changing your frame doesn’t make your car a clone, it started out as a 442, but thinking about what you said where do you draw the line? If you had a 442 and sold the original motor and put a small 2 bbl motor in it, took out the 4 speed and put a cheapo tranny in it and sold the posi rear and replaced it with an open rear and then sells the car as a 442? Is it? Well the vin says it is but all the goodies are gone yes someone can change it back I suppose and then falls into cat 4?

But what about a guy who has the last level car 100% original but rotted to the window sills, he buys a dyncorn replica body shell and installs ALL of his equipment in it and includes the vin plate, to me that is still the same 442 but with panel replacements and it should be disclosed during the sale yes it would effect value etc

But just changing the frame fenders or door, that is restoration…… my 2 cents..

I am building what in my mind is a tribute it is also going to be patterned after a 69 H/O convertible, but I am purposely choosing a Gold Interior to go with the stripes, a 4 speed to go with what Hurst was famous for , and no chance of anyone passing it off as a legit convertible 69 hurst. and I won't feel bad driving the bejesus out of it either

Allan R

It's an interesting thread. The topic of clones is not new either; all you have to do is enter the word 'clone' in the search engine of this site and voilà! Plenty of reading. Also plenty of reading on switching body plates and VIN plates. The reason I mention the fisher body tag (cowl tag) is that in 67 the 442 was an option and would be shown in Column 5 of the cowl tag as the letter V. Also in 67 the 442 was only available on the Cutlass Supreme holiday coupe and vert.

As far as frame? All A body frames are stamped with the division/plant/VIN derivative of the original car. Replacing a badly rotted frame is not unheard of and more practical than trying to repair one that is just trash. Cutting/welding the frame stampings would raise the question of ethics, which I'm not going to. The body panels and trim/glass can come off any compatible donor as required. Replacing with new after market parts is an option that some folks prefer for convenience. I'm not a big fan of the after market metal though.

What it sounds like to me is you've taken a rusty ol 67 442 and replaced a heck of a lot of sheet metal and frame with components that are solid and safe. That does NOT make it a clone. What it DOES MAKE IT is a non numbers restored/rebuilt car that you can enjoy and cruise around getting thumbs up all day long.

So long as the VIN is original to the car, you can hack all around it to repair/fix/modify the car to your needs.

Restoration can be interpreted many different ways, but IMO I think you gone about this project ethically from the sounds of it and plan to represent the car properly.

How about some pictures of this beast?

Eddie Hansen

Geez Allan just what I was thinking and said in 1/5 the the words well said

jensenracing77

If it is the frame only that is not a clone. In your words...."am i wrong to use the vin number from that car on the new car that has been built from parts"

Yes you are wrong!

All this stuff makes me want to sell my cars because this makes honest people with honest cars suspect.

jensenracing77

Sorry for being so blunt... This is a real sore spot with me right now. I just found out about a couple real respected people in the Oldsmobile community are doing this very thing!

MDchanic

This is why I say dumb, crazy stuff like "Keep it as a Cutlass."
Once it's a 442 or a clone, nobody will ever fully believe anything you tell them about it, no matter how true it is.

- Eric

pogo69

its a clone

i have watched a seller selling cowl rivets on ebay and he has sold a lot of them!!, lots of fakes out there

diesel olds

allen,eddie ,and jensen, and the rest of you guys, my car is not an orignal car due to many things and i will never try to pass it of as anything but what it is" A Restored Car " to the guys who have legit cars I understand your concern with bogus cars but its a buyer beware world if you buy a big money car and dont do you own reserch it goes back to an old saying "a fool and his money are soon seperated"so I under stand that mister jensen has an orignal car and would perfer the value not go down. I also thank allen and eddie as well as others to relize that concours cars not in everyones budget.we all work hard to perserve the old cars that we grew up with and lets not **** on each other just because of numbers we all love these cars and we spend time and money to bring them back and at the end of the day gm, mopar,ford guys all can look at a car and say "wow that is cool"

Allan R

Eric, I'm not sure but I didn't read it that diesel is changing VIN tags on his car. Here's how I read it:
1. The original car is badly rusted and needs a LOT of help.
2. The original car is getting the frame and a lot of body parts replaced.
3. The original car is keeping it's original VIN. Just parts of other cars are being used to fix it.
4. The original car will no longer be numbers matching. As we know, all cars coming from the Fisher Body Works have date codes on the sheet metal and clearly the fenders, doors, glass etc used for the restoration will not be matching.
5. The original car will be represented for what it originally was.

I DO AGREE WITH YOU that there are unscrupulous people out there who are likely the source of your ire, but from the sounds of what I interpreted diesel to say - his car is on the up and up. He's keeping the original VIN on as much of the original body as possible.

Everyone on this site knows the fantastic reputation you have for accuracy in restoring and your dedication to supplying OEM parts for us in the Olds hobby. The hard part of any discussion is reading the post from the OP and hopefully understanding it as he intended it to be read. You and I know from experience that something scripted one way can be interpreted at least 10 different ways by 10 different people.

oldstata

I have worked with collision cars and we have put new frames and half body's together this is a thin but true line. I guess if he used frame and body then yes keep the vin to body and frame if it's a full body I agree that both titles should be kept and dmv or other agency should be involved but if it's sections of body then I disagree to a point

Quote Allen R
hat it sounds like to me is you've taken a rusty ol 67 442 and replaced a heck of a lot of sheet metal and frame with components that are solid and safe. That does NOT make it a clone. What it DOES MAKE IT is a non numbers restored/rebuilt car that you can enjoy and cruise around getting thumbs up all day long.
X2 this is done every day in the collision/body shop world

71 455x

So Your only doing to Save the Vin#,s..... for the Good of the Hobby...

diesel olds

while i expected to provoke a little tension on this subject .the reason for writing it, I also hoped to get opions that I could use. mr jensen might think a car like mine should not exsist the fact is it does and only a fool would thik a 455 f block was a late 67 option people get screwed because they dont do thier homework remember you cant cheat a
honest man and thank you mr jensen for not letting the orignals get lost in the crowd

69ishHoliday

Let's see some pictures of this creation.

...and don't you mean "you can't be cheated by an honest man".

diesel olds

I hhave no idea how to post pics missed that day in school sorry

Allan R

How to post Pictures

Run to Rund

I like to consider what GM and Olds division actually did. The parts dept. made available every component, including the body shell (group 10.001) for replacement, except for the cowl tag and VIN tag.

So, to me fraud is very much a major consideration, including phony VIN or cowl tag, but careful and proper replacement of components to GM specs is allowed. Thus, simply re-badging a Cutlass as a W30 is not correct, but replacing worn out or rusted out parts, and representing the car in that manner, is OK.

As an example, I re-created the Rund race car, using magazine articles, the original car's scrapbooks, and consultation with the original owner/racer. I left the cowl tag and VIN as original on the donor shell, even though I know the original car's VIN. I represent it as a re-creation that the original owner has raced and "approved" but not the original car. The VIN and cowl tag clearly show that it is not the original car. This is not the same situation as someone restoring, possibly re-bodying a rusted out W30. In that case, I would do the restoration in the way that GM approved and represent the car as such.

Koda

I've posted before on this, and I think I'll refine it a bit for this.

A "clone" is when you are representing a car as something it never was. An example is taking a Cutlass, putting in a 442 engine, converting tags, etc, now it's a 442.

A "rebody" is when you take a complete, or close to complete, high value car, and put donor parts on it. Thus, if you had the 442, took its powertrain, interior, frame, etc and put a new body on it, it's a rebody, because it came from an actual car you owned, not a bunch of parts made into a clone. Obviously, this swings more towards clone with the less original parts you use. It becomes more palatable as a "restoration" when it is just bolt on panels like doors and decklid.

A "non-numbers matching car" is a high desirability car with non-original powertrain.

My comment on the OPs car is that what he has is a basket case, and it should serve for his means just fine. One should, when evaluating a car, realize how much or how little can be saved. Sometimes, a car is a parts car, and that's the end of it. A 442 body is part of a 442, as is the frame, and the powertrain. Depending on what you have, your proper choice can vary.

Rebodying a car is an effort to save something. Cloning is an effort in deception. It is fraud. Even if you never intend to sell, and, once you die, the car is described as what it is in your will, unless you have a sign hanging on the car everywhere you drive, and every place it's parked, you will deceive the observer into thinking it is something it is not simply by them seeing the 442 badges and thinking it is real.

And that's precisely the point. People clone because, for some reason, they can't have the original, and they want it. They want to have the feel of what they are cloning, and part of that is looking the part, and having others acknowledge it appropriately. It's not a tribute, it's not a replica, it's a fake, and men of integrity shouldn't do it. Upgrading the engine in your Cutlass? Sure. Saving a complete 442 from rust by replacing the body shell? Sure. Doing something custom to express your tastes? Rock on. Replicating a custom 1 of 1 car? That's fine, too. Just don't clone.

Rocketbrian

I read all of the comments with great interest, partially due to my 71 442 situation. In a few months my car will be gong to the body shop to begin its rust repair and restoration. It is a numbers matching car but has roof and cowl rust. I acquired a rust free dash which incorporates the bottom windshield channel and the VIN plate. I plan on removing the VIN plate and reriveting it into the replacement dash. This is all to do with rust repair and nothing else. Surely, this wouldn't be frowned on. Having a car without a VIN plate in the dash would be more suspect. If a quarter panel is changed, no issues are raised, other than the fact it was done and the quality of the work. If a metal dash is replaced problems can ensue even though the whole purpose is the same as the quarter panel, just because it contains the VIN. It somehow makes me feel like I'm doing something wrong just because of the perception of some sort of fraud. Once again the dishonest few make it difficult for the honest people.

Allan R

^^^ Exactly! I think that diesel is following these guidelines, just not expressed as eloquently.