Yes,
It would be a shame, thats why we would ask guys like you who would know the difference. This has been happening for thousands of years with violins, swords, paintings etc. and your response is right on but the focus was on the young man with the 68 442 that has a different scenerio.
He has the car, the car is beyond reasonable repair. Can he rebuild the car legally? or does he throw away the added value that a 442 has over a Cutlass? If there was a legal way to do it that satisfies the DMV, the young man threw away alot of money because of our feelings or convictions, It's that simple. Just where is the line drawn on a rebuild? The value of documented original cars with history are always the best investments, all others will be suspect. I am not talking about swapping tags. I think we would share the same sentiments on that subject.
The Lizard analogy is a good one.
I do respect your opinion, mine is just a little different.

 

Just to clarify, everybody keeps referring to the young man w/the '68 442. He has posted on this thread, and DID NOT switch plates from the 442 to the Cutlass although the drivetrain and 442 specific parts went on the cutlass! Building the car the way you want it is perfectly fine and legal and I think to a man, nobody here has a problem with! It;s part of what our hobby is about! It's crossing the line and doing something illegal that is a problem! What Tom has done is perfectly legal and acceptable! As a matter of fact, I can't wait 'till he gets it back east so I can admire it! Hurry up Tom!

 

This is where I have a problem with "re bodied" cars. If you are repairing or restoring something you already have that's one thing. This IS fraud, and should be prosecuted, or at least heavily discouraged.

 

And I'm not even that young!! haha.

The "original" car topic is definitely an interesting subject, and is open to great debate. I actually almost thought of keeping the Cutlass S badges on the car, but a) I already had all new 442 badges (at about $125, it wasn't cheap), and b) I wasn't a huge fan of the Cutlass S logo (no offense to those Cutlass S owners out there). Plus, seeing as I had to buy two cars to get one done, I felt as if I had at least earned some right to put "442" on my car. haha.

I've never really enjoyed lying or pretending to be something that I'm not, so I'm certainly never comfortable saying "OH, my car is this or that..." when it's really not. What does suck on this car, is I have no good description. Everytime someone asks me I'll have to say "Well, it's a Cutlass S 442" cause that's exactly what it is. My number's matching 442 drivetrain & hurst shifter in a Cutlass S body. While it would have definitely made things easier, I just don't think changing out VIN#s is right.

I'm not building this car to sell it, I'm not building it for anyone else. So, if it does everything a 442 can do, why should I really care? Should it really stroke my ego to say I have a 442 instead of a Cutlass? I started getting like that when I initially was able to start this great hobby of ours, but I saw the utter ridiculouslness it bred, so I quickly changed my tune. Do i enjoy a complete number's matching, original car? Absolutely. However, I'm definitely not going to do anything illegal to make sure I have one.

And it looks like the 442 won't be making it out East until next year. Hope to go to the New England Nats with it.

 

I don't ever misrepresent what my car is...it's a recreation....a clone....a Cutlass with the heart of a 442....I took all the parts off a Miami,Fl rusted out, funky rust, 442 hardtop and created a car that there were only 110 of ever made....my dream without the $80,000 price tag. The red fenderwells are in the garage, the paint was a lil too detailed under the hood and now I can't take off the fenderwell body bolts, duh. If money is no object then a car that's "correct" is well within reach, I have what I only dreamed of and its within my budget. The VIN tag says EXACTLY what the car is, so that's going to stay the way it should. But I never misrepresent what it is, and as long as you always remain honest about what it is, your not deceiving anybody. Now here's a modern day question for you guys. What if you have, lets say a 2000 model Z-28 and you have well over 200k miles on it. 1 day the ECM goes out, you replace it with a $80 unit off Ebay, suddenly the odometer has shed 120K miles. Now, do you tell the next owner about the replaced ECM and incorrect mileage? It's going to be pretty difficult for anyone to figure out, right? That should keep the discussion going, just a thought about misrepresenting a vehicle with a modern twist.

 

I was at a big old junk yard today and every GTO, Camaro,ETC had the Vin's and cowl tags removed. I never realized how big the problem was. We continued on to a farm my friend has out in the country in western MN and someone stole all the parts off his friends 74 Firebird he had stored there, removed the VIN, cowl tag, then cut a chunk out of the firewall below the heater motor and every other possible part was gone.
So we decided to finish the car off with a couple boxes of 22 long rifles and lots of holes provided by a .45 colt semi auto. It looked like Bonnie and Clydes old Ford when we got done with it. We got a call on the way home and the owner of the car knew the Firebird had been stripped but decided he wanted to keep the roof and some other sheet metal parts You should have heard my friend stutter.
What a crazy day.

 

I believe that can be kind of easily figured out depending on where you live. Whenever I go for an E check, they take the mileage and put it in their computer. Say i just bought a car and take it to have the E check done and they get my mileage reading and it shows up as a lower mileage than before. I would think I would be able to tell the authorities and they could get the previous owner into some type of trouble. This is just one way, I am sure there are other ways also.

I got lucky with a Volvo I purchased not to long ago. The odometer stopped working soon after the previous owner got it. He didn't really care, so he just never fixed it. About 25,000 miles later he decides to sell the car. He actually stated in the ad that the odometer stopped at 270,000 miles, the car most likely has a little over 300,000 miles now. I buy the car knowing the mileage is not correct, the owner seemed like a trustworthy guy so I took his word on it. Soon after I bought the car, I checked the computer and it showed the car having 294,000 miles. I guess I got lucky and he was actually trying to be as honest as possible. I wish all people were like him.

 

If I may ask, does someone have a good reference to read about "numbers matching"?

This thought crossed my mind when I was talking to a man on the phone about a car... First I guess I need to know what does numbers matching mean. I know the numbers match like the engine matches the vin, etc. BUT! Are there numbers matching pieces that match a model and not a specific car? Example: Car A (hehe) has to have say the front left quarter panel? replaced (not exactly sure, the part above the wheels between the hood and wheels). Now, can I find a replacement quarter panel (once again, not sure of the name of the piece) from another car and still have a numbers matching car?

I guess what I want to end up with is a car that has all factory parts for that year of car with numbers matching. Can numbers matching pieces come from other cars?

I know the engine has a partial vin in it... that's cool! I need to know what parts are linked to the VIN and what parts aren't so when I buy a car I know that I can restore it how I'm planning in my head.

Thanks guys!

 

Another good question, Grasshopper.....
This has been discussed before, and if you want to bring it up again, I suggest you start a new thread. In a nutshell, the term "numbers matching" is a horribly misused term because *by itself* it means nothing. (Because it can mean different things with different cars to different people)

 

Searched the olds wiki to no avail. Did a google search and found a few forums but none regarding Oldsmobiles. I started a new thread here:
https://classicoldsmobile.com/forums...hing-mean.html

 

I don't agree with the practice but here is how easy it is to do.


http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...SS%3AUS%3A1123

 

I am trying to sell a 66 442. Does anyone know how in a vin number it says it is a 442. Tired of being ask if it is real or not. Any advice?

 

Ok... a bit late to this party but this is a pic of a car we did years ago... The owner found a rolled southern car and we sectioned this and put on factory quarters... This was some documented 427 car or something... I don't remember but it shows the length some people go to to not "Rebody" a car. Lotta welding sectioning through the cowl like this, huh? LMAO!!!

 

The question of why a 442 is more valuable than a Cutlass is desirability and survivability. Not so much rarity. There's plenty of "Rare" cars that have very low value. Generally Muscle Cars had the snot beat out of them. If not by the origional owner, by the later owner who bought it as just an older car with a powerful engine.Manifolds were replaces, headers added,Maybe a tunnel ram. Sawzall to the hood, Glued angel hair to every interior panel, tossed the seats for some racing buckets. Then maybe smoked the trans, blew the engine, got some other drivetrain and limped through 20 salty winters while the Cutlass 4 door, bought by a farmer who drove it to town once a week and had a truck to drive in the winter had good luck with his cutlass so he never saw the need to trade it in so he has a 50k mile 25 year old car that's really not as valuable as the non numbers matching rusted and beaten car with the lucky option package. They are only origional once and when you see the guys that have 100k into a restoration and duplicating chalk marks and paint dabs etc... I guess I don't see it. The factory kicked hundreds of them out just like it every day.

 

I still have the hammer I bought when I was an apprentice, 3 new handles and 2 new heads..........
Roger.

 

If built in Lansing (letter M in the middle of the VIN), the cowl tag will have 5V on it.

 

Good one! ROTFLMAO. Bet it still has it's original sales tag too!

 

This is interesting and related to this topic. I am a purist so you know where I land...

http://www.1957chevybody.com/body_options.html

 

This question was answered for you in another thread.

The VIN does not tell you whether a car was a 442 in 1966. In that year 442 was an option package and not a separate model, so the VIN will just be a regular Cutlass / F-85 VIN.
There is no other answer.
The "5V" on the cowl tag is a different thing, and has nothing to do with the VIN, so now you're talking about authenticating the cowl tag, and other manufacturing details which are not backed up by any official documentation, regardless of their validity.

- Eric