1967 F85 Deluxe (numbers matching)
October 27th, 2013, 10:42 AM
#1
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1967 F85 Deluxe (numbers matching)
Purchased this car on Friday. The engine appears to match the vin, although it appears to have been painted a red color. Which leads me to believe it may have been rebuilt. I think it should have been gold??? It's the 330 2BBL type O axle with 3.08 Tube code (SC). It has the 3 on the tree. There was a very tattered build sheet in the car that is currently bein scanned in. You can barely make out some of the codes across the top of the sheet. I'm assuming it belongs to the car. I will post some pics as soon as I have it scanned in. Very Very fragile.
It's a freemont car. It hasAC, PB,PS, thought it had cruise control because of the image below. What is attached to the throttle linkage ??? (Round object)
Any help on hone cowl would be great. Early build body code as well.
It's a freemont car. It hasAC, PB,PS, thought it had cruise control because of the image below. What is attached to the throttle linkage ??? (Round object)
Any help on hone cowl would be great. Early build body code as well.
Last edited by stonecad; October 27th, 2013 at 10:45 AM.
October 27th, 2013, 12:44 PM
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Olds didn't start stamping a VIN derivative on the engine until the 1968 model year, so there's no such thing as a "numbers-matching" pre-1968 Oldsmobile.
See this thread.
https://classicoldsmobile.com/forums...eal-442-a.html
I don't think so. It's actually a late build code. It says "04C" on the cowl tag, which indicates 3rd week of April, so that would be April 67, only about two or three months before production of 1967 models ceased to make way for the '68s. Production of 1967 models would have begun way back in the summer of 1966.
See this thread.
https://classicoldsmobile.com/forums...eal-442-a.html
I don't think so. It's actually a late build code. It says "04C" on the cowl tag, which indicates 3rd week of April, so that would be April 67, only about two or three months before production of 1967 models ceased to make way for the '68s. Production of 1967 models would have begun way back in the summer of 1966.
Last edited by jaunty75; October 27th, 2013 at 12:47 PM.
October 27th, 2013, 01:06 PM
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I'm a little confused. The upper photo is of the VIN plate on the door pillar. It says 336177Z115540, which translates to a 1967 Cutlass V-8 2-door hardtop built at Fremont, California.
The lower photo shows a stamped number on the engine that says W455407L. What exactly is matching between that and the VIN? The fact that the middle of this number is 5540, which are the same as the last four of the VIN? That doesn't make it matching. You're right, that's just a coincidence. If nothing else, the VIN derivative on the engine should start with a 3 to indicate that it is an Oldsmobile engine.
Here's a quote from tech guru Joe Padavano from another thread talking about what a VIN derivative should look like. In this example, he was talking about a 1974 model.
"The VIN-derivative is a nine character number. The first character will always be "3" for Oldsmobile Division. The second will be the year of manufacture - a "4" for 1974. The third character is usually a letter and designates the manufacturing plant (M = Lansing, Z = Freemont, CA, etc.). This letter must match the seventh character of the VIN. The last six digits of the VIN-derivative match the last six of the VIN from the car that the motor was originally installed in. All numbers must match (hence the term "numbers matching") for this to be the original engine."
The lower photo shows a stamped number on the engine that says W455407L. What exactly is matching between that and the VIN? The fact that the middle of this number is 5540, which are the same as the last four of the VIN? That doesn't make it matching. You're right, that's just a coincidence. If nothing else, the VIN derivative on the engine should start with a 3 to indicate that it is an Oldsmobile engine.
Here's a quote from tech guru Joe Padavano from another thread talking about what a VIN derivative should look like. In this example, he was talking about a 1974 model.
"The VIN-derivative is a nine character number. The first character will always be "3" for Oldsmobile Division. The second will be the year of manufacture - a "4" for 1974. The third character is usually a letter and designates the manufacturing plant (M = Lansing, Z = Freemont, CA, etc.). This letter must match the seventh character of the VIN. The last six digits of the VIN-derivative match the last six of the VIN from the car that the motor was originally installed in. All numbers must match (hence the term "numbers matching") for this to be the original engine."
October 27th, 2013, 01:08 PM
#10
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Just a by chance some of those numbers match. they have nothing to do with each other.
What's the block casting number and and the head letter code. Red motor you sure its not a 425 that got dropped in it?
What's the block casting number and and the head letter code. Red motor you sure its not a 425 that got dropped in it?
October 27th, 2013, 01:16 PM
#11
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394497 head casting
It's definitely a small block
October 27th, 2013, 01:20 PM
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I'm a little confused. The upper photo is of the VIN plate on the door pillar. It says 336177Z115540, which translates to a 1967 Cutlass V-8 2-door hardtop built at Fremont, California.
The lower photo shows a stamped number on the engine that says W455407L. What exactly is matching between that and the VIN? The fact that the middle of this number is 5540, which are the same as the last four of the VIN? That doesn't make it matching. You're right, that's just a coincidence. If nothing else, the VIN derivative on the engine should start with a 3 to indicate that it is an Oldsmobile engine.
Here's a quote from tech guru Joe Padavano from another thread talking about what a VIN derivative should look like. In this example, he was talking about a 1974 model.
"The VIN-derivative is a nine character number. The first character will always be "3" for Oldsmobile Division. The second will be the year of manufacture - a "4" for 1974. The third character is usually a letter and designates the manufacturing plant (M = Lansing, Z = Freemont, CA, etc.). This letter must match the seventh character of the VIN. The last six digits of the VIN-derivative match the last six of the VIN from the car that the motor was originally installed in. All numbers must match (hence the term "numbers matching") for this to be the original engine."
The lower photo shows a stamped number on the engine that says W455407L. What exactly is matching between that and the VIN? The fact that the middle of this number is 5540, which are the same as the last four of the VIN? That doesn't make it matching. You're right, that's just a coincidence. If nothing else, the VIN derivative on the engine should start with a 3 to indicate that it is an Oldsmobile engine.
Here's a quote from tech guru Joe Padavano from another thread talking about what a VIN derivative should look like. In this example, he was talking about a 1974 model.
"The VIN-derivative is a nine character number. The first character will always be "3" for Oldsmobile Division. The second will be the year of manufacture - a "4" for 1974. The third character is usually a letter and designates the manufacturing plant (M = Lansing, Z = Freemont, CA, etc.). This letter must match the seventh character of the VIN. The last six digits of the VIN-derivative match the last six of the VIN from the car that the motor was originally installed in. All numbers must match (hence the term "numbers matching") for this to be the original engine."
Code is stamped on the right cylinder head. Unfortunately, this only applies to what was originally the driver's side head. This code consists of a prefix letter (330 V8=T(1964-65) or W(1966-67), 400 V8 = V), then a production sequence number, followed by a suffix code letter (L = Low compression, E = 2-bbl export, G = High compression, H = 4-bbl export). A 2-letter code on the oil filler tube identified the engine.
This is what I read on 442.com
I misread the part about a sequential number. The heads do code to a 67 as it has the W,.
October 27th, 2013, 01:43 PM
#13
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Yes, the number stamped on the engine does tell you something. I never said it didn't. In your case, the engine is a low-compression '66/'67 330. But it doesn't tell you anything about what car it was originally installed in.
October 27th, 2013, 05:00 PM
#14
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It does in a roundabout way. If you have the protecto plate booklet, the booklet has the VIN of the car listed. It also has the head suffix listed. So the head number matches the POP, and the POP has the VIN. But no POP no way to verify what car the engine came from.
October 29th, 2013, 06:58 AM
#15
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Additional Pics
Originally purchased this as a donor car for engine brackets, etc... for the 442 - Leaning now towards keeping it together and turning it into a driver car... Threw a battery in it to see if it would turn over and it does. Will be putting a coil on it today and hooking up some vacuum lines to see if it will start.
Concerned with the rust that exists below the front and rear windshields.
Highly optioned car, including power antenna and a rear speaker option.. The rear speaker grill was left in the car but the seats were removed so i'm not entirely sure that the car is supposed to have in there. don't care much for the blue interior but it will have to do. I also like the rear air shock system it has in place.
Concerned with the rust that exists below the front and rear windshields.
Highly optioned car, including power antenna and a rear speaker option.. The rear speaker grill was left in the car but the seats were removed so i'm not entirely sure that the car is supposed to have in there. don't care much for the blue interior but it will have to do. I also like the rear air shock system it has in place.
October 29th, 2013, 07:03 AM
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Purchased this car on Friday. The engine appears to match the vin, although it appears to have been painted a red color. Which leads me to believe it may have been rebuilt. I think it should have been gold??? It's the 330 2BBL type O axle with 3.08 Tube code (SC). It has the 3 on the tree. There was a very tattered build sheet in the car that is currently bein scanned in. You can barely make out some of the codes across the top of the sheet. I'm assuming it belongs to the car. I will post some pics as soon as I have it scanned in. Very Very fragile.
It's a freemont car. It hasAC, PB,PS, thought it had cruise control because of the image below. What is attached to the throttle linkage ??? (Round object)
Any help on hone cowl would be great. Early build body code as well.
It's a freemont car. It hasAC, PB,PS, thought it had cruise control because of the image below. What is attached to the throttle linkage ??? (Round object)
Any help on hone cowl would be great. Early build body code as well.
October 29th, 2013, 07:11 AM
#17
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Purchased this car on Friday. The engine appears to match the vin, although it appears to have been painted a red color. Which leads me to believe it may have been rebuilt. I think it should have been gold??? It's the 330 2BBL type O axle with 3.08 Tube code (SC). It has the 3 on the tree. There was a very tattered build sheet in the car that is currently bein scanned in. You can barely make out some of the codes across the top of the sheet. I'm assuming it belongs to the car. I will post some pics as soon as I have it scanned in. Very Very fragile.
It's a freemont car. It hasAC, PB,PS, thought it had cruise control because of the image below. What is attached to the throttle linkage ??? (Round object)
Any help on hone cowl would be great. Early build body code as well.
It's a freemont car. It hasAC, PB,PS, thought it had cruise control because of the image below. What is attached to the throttle linkage ??? (Round object)
Any help on hone cowl would be great. Early build body code as well.
That is a throttle linkage for an automatic trans -- its an electric kick-down switch - should NOT be on a stick car!!
October 29th, 2013, 07:12 AM
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October 29th, 2013, 07:15 AM
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As I am going through the car I have noticed a few other non matching parts. The car has all three pedals and the gauge bezel does not have the PRND21 cutout - but then the kickdown is there - not sure what doesn't belong as they do contradict each other. Hopefully someone on here can decode the vin in some form/fashion to help me figure out what is supposed to be there.
October 29th, 2013, 07:24 AM
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As I am going through the car I have noticed a few other non matching parts. The car has all three pedals and the gauge bezel does not have the PRND21 cutout - but then the kickdown is there - not sure what doesn't belong as they do contradict each other. Hopefully someone on here can decode the vin in some form/fashion to help me figure out what is supposed to be there.
Look at the Zbar bracket on the frame. It will be welded on from the factory. Nice smooth even clean weld. If it's not a neat clean job it's likely to be a shop conversion.
Henry
October 29th, 2013, 07:27 AM
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I, myself am not quite sure what the difference is between a F-85 Deluxe and a regular Cutlass?? --- quite a difference in the Cutlass Supreme though.
Maybe its the same with 2 diff names? In the tag decode section it lists the group beginning 336 as Group F-85 and 'Model"- Cutlass - which leads me to believe that it must be the exterior trim difference and the steering wheels are different - the Std has horn center button -- Deluxe has spoke buttons. May be some other subtle differences?
October 29th, 2013, 07:33 AM
#23
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Youre correct --- my sorta bad --- 33407 is code for STD F-85 and 33617 is both F-85 Deluxe and regular Cutlass --- Also it designates its a Hardtop ( no post) and the standard F-85 in 67 could not get Holiday hardtop -- the 2 drs were all post cars.
I, myself am not quite sure what the difference is between a F-85 Deluxe and a regular Cutlass?? --- quite a difference in the Cutlass Supreme though.
Maybe its the same with 2 diff names? In the tag decode section it lists the group beginning 336 as Group F-85 and 'Model"- Cutlass - which leads me to believe that it must be the exterior trim difference and the steering wheels are different - the Std has horn center button -- Deluxe has spoke buttons. May be some other subtle differences?
I, myself am not quite sure what the difference is between a F-85 Deluxe and a regular Cutlass?? --- quite a difference in the Cutlass Supreme though.
Maybe its the same with 2 diff names? In the tag decode section it lists the group beginning 336 as Group F-85 and 'Model"- Cutlass - which leads me to believe that it must be the exterior trim difference and the steering wheels are different - the Std has horn center button -- Deluxe has spoke buttons. May be some other subtle differences?
October 29th, 2013, 07:34 AM
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October 29th, 2013, 08:34 AM
#25
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To Clear some things up.
I believe that since the Service Manuals are printed way ahead of time they used 1966 as a reference.
In 1966 there was a
F-85 3407 Post
F-85 Deluxe 3617 Hardtop (Same interior as 3807)
Cutlass Sport Coupe 3807 Post (Same interior as 3617)
Cutlass Holiday Coupe 3817 Hardtop
In 1967 the First Wholesale Order Forms (June "66) named the 3500-3600's as Deluxe.
In Sept. '66 Wholesale Order Forms they named them Cutlass for the 3500-3600's.
So Oldsmobile just wanted to get all the A bodies smaller.
Mike
I believe that since the Service Manuals are printed way ahead of time they used 1966 as a reference.
In 1966 there was a
F-85 3407 Post
F-85 Deluxe 3617 Hardtop (Same interior as 3807)
Cutlass Sport Coupe 3807 Post (Same interior as 3617)
Cutlass Holiday Coupe 3817 Hardtop
In 1967 the First Wholesale Order Forms (June "66) named the 3500-3600's as Deluxe.
In Sept. '66 Wholesale Order Forms they named them Cutlass for the 3500-3600's.
So Oldsmobile just wanted to get all the A bodies smaller.
Mike
October 29th, 2013, 09:14 AM
#26
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To Clear some things up.
I believe that since the Service Manuals are printed way ahead of time they used 1966 as a reference.
In 1966 there was a
F-85 3407 Post
F-85 Deluxe 3617 Hardtop (Same interior as 3807)
Cutlass Sport Coupe 3807 Post (Same interior as 3617)
Cutlass Holiday Coupe 3817 Hardtop
In 1967 the First Wholesale Order Forms (June "66) named the 3500-3600's as Deluxe.
In Sept. '66 Wholesale Order Forms they named them Cutlass for the 3500-3600's.
So Oldsmobile just wanted to get all the A bodies smaller.
Mike
I believe that since the Service Manuals are printed way ahead of time they used 1966 as a reference.
In 1966 there was a
F-85 3407 Post
F-85 Deluxe 3617 Hardtop (Same interior as 3807)
Cutlass Sport Coupe 3807 Post (Same interior as 3617)
Cutlass Holiday Coupe 3817 Hardtop
In 1967 the First Wholesale Order Forms (June "66) named the 3500-3600's as Deluxe.
In Sept. '66 Wholesale Order Forms they named them Cutlass for the 3500-3600's.
So Oldsmobile just wanted to get all the A bodies smaller.
Mike
October 29th, 2013, 09:15 AM
#27
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I see "no rust"
A/C car
you say it's a 3-onna-tree - show some pics?
That car deserves to be saved.
Cover the holes with sealer and DRIVE IT.
Red 330: poor man's big block.
Probably the only color available at the store that day.
A/C car
you say it's a 3-onna-tree - show some pics?
That car deserves to be saved.
Cover the holes with sealer and DRIVE IT.
Red 330: poor man's big block.
Probably the only color available at the store that day.
October 29th, 2013, 09:27 AM
#28
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Will be taking more pics and get you some shots of the rust.
October 29th, 2013, 09:35 AM
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One more thing, the Cutlass Supremes were the only '67's that had the rear back up lights in the middle part of the bumper.
The Cutlass's had them in the bumper outside.
Notice the CLEAR back up lights in the bumper.
Mike
The Cutlass's had them in the bumper outside.
Notice the CLEAR back up lights in the bumper.
Mike
October 29th, 2013, 10:27 AM
#30
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[QUOTE=Chesrown 67 OAI;608572]Youre correct --- my sorta bad --- 33407 is code for STD F-85 and 33617 is both F-85 Deluxe and regular Cutlass --- Also it designates its a Hardtop ( no post) and the standard F-85 in 67 could not get Holiday hardtop -- the 2 drs were all post cars.
does this mean there were no 67 442s with this 33617 code and the smaller lower trim.
years ago in NC I came across a 67 442 with this thinner looking f-85 deluxe trim and the guy swore the car was a real 442. from my research the 442 in 67 was not available like this... only avail in the supreame / sport coupe body style.
oh and I have the missing lower door trim in one of the pics of the car if someone wants it.
does this mean there were no 67 442s with this 33617 code and the smaller lower trim.
years ago in NC I came across a 67 442 with this thinner looking f-85 deluxe trim and the guy swore the car was a real 442. from my research the 442 in 67 was not available like this... only avail in the supreame / sport coupe body style.
oh and I have the missing lower door trim in one of the pics of the car if someone wants it.
October 29th, 2013, 10:31 AM
#31
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[QUOTE=lunaboy;608645]
It is accepted that 442's were only available on the Cutlass Supreme model 338XXX in 1967 anyway
Youre correct --- my sorta bad --- 33407 is code for STD F-85 and 33617 is both F-85 Deluxe and regular Cutlass --- Also it designates its a Hardtop ( no post) and the standard F-85 in 67 could not get Holiday hardtop -- the 2 drs were all post cars.
does this mean there were no 67 442s with this 33617 code and the smaller lower trim.
years ago in NC I came across a 67 442 with this thinner looking f-85 deluxe trim and the guy swore the car was a real 442. from my research the 442 in 67 was not available like this... only avail in the supreame / sport coupe body style.
oh and I have the missing lower door trim in one of the pics of the car if someone wants it.
does this mean there were no 67 442s with this 33617 code and the smaller lower trim.
years ago in NC I came across a 67 442 with this thinner looking f-85 deluxe trim and the guy swore the car was a real 442. from my research the 442 in 67 was not available like this... only avail in the supreame / sport coupe body style.
oh and I have the missing lower door trim in one of the pics of the car if someone wants it.
Last edited by stonecad; October 29th, 2013 at 10:35 AM.
October 31st, 2013, 05:41 AM
#32
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Here is a shot of the Z-Bar Bracket. The Instrument Panel does not have the PRND gauge and so I believe this to be a Standard 3/tree however I started to pull numbers off the transmission and it codes to a 1967 Chevrolet Camaro - 3 Speed Saginaw - Not sure what was done to make that work - Adapter plate maybe.. In any event its coming out in the next few weeks.
Code on Transmission
3858986
C17
October 31st, 2013, 05:46 AM
#33
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Here is a shot of the Z-Bar Bracket. The Instrument Panel does not have the PRND gauge and so I believe this to be a Standard 3/tree however I started to pull numbers off the transmission and it codes to a 1967 Chevrolet Camaro - 3 Speed Saginaw - Not sure what was done to make that work - Adapter plate maybe.. In any event its coming out in the next few weeks.
Code on Transmission
3858986
C17
Code on Transmission
3858986
C17
November 1st, 2013, 08:02 PM
#35
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Car started up on first crank after installing a coil, inline fuel filter and a battery. I still need to get a radiator, drain and change the oil and replace all the lights. I also need to replace the DS brake Drum because all but one stud is broke. I was pretty lucky to get this car for $400. Previous owner bought the trailer the car was sitting on just wanted it gone.
November 6th, 2013, 04:32 AM
#36
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Great car
Purchased this car on Friday. The engine appears to match the vin, although it appears to have been painted a red color. Which leads me to believe it may have been rebuilt. I think it should have been gold??? It's the 330 2BBL type O axle with 3.08 Tube code (SC). It has the 3 on the tree. There was a very tattered build sheet in the car that is currently bein scanned in. You can barely make out some of the codes across the top of the sheet. I'm assuming it belongs to the car. I will post some pics as soon as I have it scanned in. Very Very fragile.
It's a freemont car. It hasAC, PB,PS, thought it had cruise control because of the image below. What is attached to the throttle linkage ??? (Round object)
Any help on hone cowl would be great. Early build body code as well.
It's a freemont car. It hasAC, PB,PS, thought it had cruise control because of the image below. What is attached to the throttle linkage ??? (Round object)
Any help on hone cowl would be great. Early build body code as well.
November 6th, 2013, 08:22 AM
#37
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Thanks, I am currently working on getting the car driveable - to date I've installed a coil, ignition switch/key, running lights, in line fuel filter and a battery. I need to pick up a radiator, radiator cover, vacuum hoses, master cylinder, brake drum/hubs need to be replaced but will suffice for now. Once the mechanicals are taken care of - the only real problem with the car is the rust around the windshield and back glass. its rotted through and will not seal if I don't get it replaced... oh and I don't have a left turn signal... switch needs replacing.
November 6th, 2013, 10:37 AM
#39
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