old-cars

Hello:
I recently sold my 1965 Starfire Convertible which I bought in NJ 4 years ago and spent +$5,000.00 on before deciding to move forward with my 1963 Starfire. So a fellow bought it in Mass and now I have a MAJOR problem as the VIN tag is missing and he cannot register it in Massachusetts. Chiltons says the VIN is on the door frame tag but does not describe where else it might be. I believe 1965 was before they had the VIN on the engine and trans. Can anyone tell me if the VIN is stamped on the frame or elsewhere? Many thanks.

Paul

jaunty75

Quick question. If you sold him the car, does HE have the problem, or do you? I know you're trying to be a nice guy, but didn't you sell the car "as is"? The fact that the VIN tag is missing was not a secret? Isn't it HIS job to know what the laws of his state are with respect to this sort of thing BEFORE he buys such a car? Can't HE research the situation and find out where else on HIS car the VIN might be stamped, if it is? I hate to sound cold-hearted, but "buyer beware" means just that.

Now, having said the mean and nasty, surely there must be some way for a Massachusetts resident to register such a car. What would he do, for example, if he wanted to register a car made before VIN tags were even included on a car? They weren't commonly included on cars until the late 1940s as I understand it. Before then, they often used an engine number or something like that. What if he had, say, a '31 Olds he wanted to register? What would the Massachusetts DMV say, "sorry?" There certainly must be some owners of '20s and '30s automobiles in Massachusetts who have registered their cars. How did they do it?

Or why doesn't he just go to a junkyard and remove the VIN tag from another, similar '65 Olds and glue it to his car? I'm not kidding. Who would ever know? The car will be registered, and he'll never cross paths with his state DMV again on it.

But I still go back to my first question first. Whose problem is this, really?

old-cars

I understand your point but does anyone know if the VIN is available in a second location such as the frame???

jaunty75

I've never heard that it is. The first few digits are also on the body cowl tag, but what makes a VIN unique is the last six digits, which are the production sequence number. Maybe that number by itself is stamped somewhere, but it wouldn't necessarily have the first part of the VIN. What's going to satisfy the Massachusetts DMV is something with the complete VIN, and I don't think that exists anywhere but on that plate.

I'm also thinking that even if you did find it another location, the authorities might not accept it because they expect the VIN plate to be in a certain location. If it's not there, that's certainly going raise their eyebrows, even if you CAN point to another location. After all, what reason could there be for a VIN plate NOT to be on the car where it's supposed to be? I can think of lots of bad reasons and no good ones, and they'll probably have the same thoughts!

In the end, it probably won't matter even if you do find the VIN stamped on the axle or in some inaccessible spot on the frame. The fact that's its missing from its normal location suggests foul play at some point in the car's past even though the reason it's missing might be an innocent one.

The only way the buyer might be able to get it registered is to go through some sort of process where the car is declared wrecked and then brought back from the dead with some kind of special registration process for situations in which cars involved in accidents might have had their VIN plates separated from the rest of the car because pieces of different donor cars were used to repair the damage.

stan 65 cutlass

on the 65 cutlass its on the top of the frame near the drivers door i believe, not sure of the starfire. a buddy of mine had new tag made for his 63 impalla, the guy was from the states somewhere. did you give him reg for the car or sold without papers?

jaunty75

Yes, but he's asking not where the VIN tag NORMALLY is located. He says that tag is missing. What he wants to know is if the VIN is stamped or on a tag ANYWHERE ELSE on the car.

My '67 Delta has the VIN tag on the driver's door hinge pillar. That's where it was on my '64 Jetstar, too. I think that's true for all Oldsmobiles up through about 1970 or '71, when they started putting them on the front edge of the dash under the windshield, which is where it is on my '73.

stan 65 cutlass

yes its on the frame, unfortunatly the body should be off to see it

stan 65 cutlass

my buddys was missing because he legally bought a stolen car with the vin tag peeled off and missing. he just had a new tag made and was able to verify the number with another vin location

jaunty75

It is? Interesting. Where, exactly? More importantly, if it's not easily accessible, what good does it do Mr. Old-Cars?

When I registered my '73, which was bought from out of state, I had to bring the car to the DMV office so they could send someone out to look at it and verify that the VIN on the car matched that on the old title. The person who accompanied me was a lady of about 60 years of age. It was easy enough for her to see the car's VIN through the windshield. I think that if I had asked her to get down on her back and slide under the car so she could see the VIN stamped on the inside edge of one of the frame rails or something like that, she would have hit me with her clipboard!

jaunty75

Interesting. Where was this? Canada? I'm guessing the laws on this might vary from state to state in the U.S. But if the buyer of this Starfire can find the VIN and get a plate made, perhaps he'd be in business.

So we're back to Old-Cars's initial question. Where ELSE is the VIN?

stan 65 cutlass

go to 442bro.com, click on vin, there is a pic of the frame number. yes canadian eh

jaunty75

Interesting. The photo he shows is as you said. It shows that the VIN is stamped on the TOP side of the frame rail under the driver's door. This means that you would have to remove the body to see it, as you also said. Not of much value, then, is it?

Bob5973

Jaunty75

I am the one who bought the car, sold as is is not an excuse not to have a vin tag on it. I am new to this club but you seem very vindictive, I thought this was a friendly group of guys and gals who belonged here and where here to offer support and help. Yes Mass. is very tough on their registration rules but they are only protecting them from buying stolen or salvaged cars. If you can't offer constructive help you would be better offer not saying anything. I have belong to other car clubs in the past and never had anyone makes comments like you did. I know oldcar is very fair and is not out to hurt anyone, you know it is illegal to remove those tags and I am happy that he is trying to resolve the issue.

jaunty75

Oh, for pity's sake, come off it. It's the real world out there, pal. If you want touchy-feely, go join the Betty Crocker cake-baking site.

The other guy was writing in as the seller. I was looking at it from his point of view. So sue me.


I DID offer constructive help. Not to you, but to the other guy. You don't tell me what I can and cannot post, OK? And I'll extend you the same courtesy.


So tell us, why didn't YOU do your homework before you bought the car?

Jamesbo

Gentlemen,

Let's try to be polite, this is a serious matter.

Thanks

TK-65

In the 65 Cutlass assembly manual youll find this

vinstampsonbody.jpg

Notice it says there are many places, on the body, where there are hidden VINs stamped into the sheet metal. nobody has been able to find them however. The 69 Camaro guys have found them, on the firewall around the heater box area.

And jaunty is being jaunty, dont pay him any mind.

Mikes65

On my 65 Cutlass the sequence # part of the Vin was stamped on the top of the frame-drivers side in front AND behind the rear wheel. I also found what I believe to be a part # on the outside of the frame behind the rear wheel. Unfortunately the stamps on top cannot be seen unless the body is off the frame and I still could not see them until I sandblasted. Then they appeared like magic.

jaunty75

You're darn right it is. There's all kinds of questions that haven't been answered. Courtroom visits could be part of the future of this.

Let's review the facts of the case as we have them, and they are admittedly thin.

This thread was started by "old-cars" who said he sold a '65 Starfire to one "Bob5973", but Mr. 5973 discovered that he was unable to register his car in his state because the car has no VIN tag.

First question! How is it that old-cars could even legally sell this car in the first place? You can't sell a car if you don't legally own it, and you don't own it unless you have a title to it, and you can't get a title for it unless you have a VIN for it. What happened to the VIN tag? old-cars hasn't said. Was it missing from the car when he bought it four years ago, or did it go missing during the years he's owned it? If it's the latter, he ought to know why it's no longer there. If it's the former, then he went out on a bit of a limb to even buy the car if there was the possibility that when he went to sell it at some later date, whoever bought it might have a problem titling it.

Assuming that old-cars did have legal title and thus did legally sell the car, then, as I said at the very beginning of all this, his involvement with this affair is over. He should run in the opposite direction from all this as fast as he can as it appears it's only going to get uglier.


Now lets go over to the buyer. As I've already asked, how is it that he could buy this car or any car before making sure that he could legally title it in his state? The missing VIN tag, which anyone contemplating buying a car like this should certainly look for as among the first things one does when inspecting it, should have been a huge red flag.

But that appears to be neither here nor there because Bob5973 has apparently already handed old-cars the cash and been handed in return the keys plus what has apparently turned out to be a worthless piece of paper that looks a lot like the old title.

So what does Bob5973 do now? Well, if I'm him, I find out from the state of Massachusetts exactly what, if anything, can be done to title a car in this condition in that state. Everyone is running around offering advice on what other places on the car will have the VIN stamped, but do we even know that this would do any good? Has anyone actually asked the Mass DMV to see if an alternative VIN tag or stamp would be as good as the one that's missing? Or are we just ASSUMING it would be as good?

I think this is a relevant question because you have to look at it from the point of view of fraud, which the state might be trying to prevent. Even if another VIN can be found, it still leaves open the question of what happened to the original tag? Unless the seller knows it was destroyed and can prove it, it's possible that whoever took it did so to put it on another car for good or bad reasons. And THIS leaves open the possibility of having two cars running around titled with the same VIN, which the state is probably trying to avoid.

But even if finding another location on the car with the VIN would be acceptable to the state, Bob5973 STILL has a problem because, apparently, the only other possible location for it that anyone has been able to identify is apparently in a place that would require dismantling the car to get at. So is he going to remove the body and tow the chassis over to the local DMV office to show them the VIN? Maybe so.

But more likely, this isn't going to happen, and we're back to the original question, and that is, can a car be titled in Massachusetts in any way if the VIN tag is missing.

This could end up in court. It may turn out that the seller did not and never had legal title to the car during the four years it sat in his garage. If so, he wasn't legally allowed to sell it, and the buyer could take him to court to get his money back.


All this needs is a dead body, and we've got an episode of Law and Order!

jaunty75

I mentioned this to my wife just now. She is a HUGE Law and Order fan, and she said this has actually come up in an episode. They needed the VIN from a car where the tag was missing, and the only way they were able to get at another location where it was stamped was to dismantle the car. Of course, that could have been just for the sake of some drama, but L&O is usually pretty accurate about these kinds of details.

Mikes65

I think some of the confusion also comes from different laws from state to state. Here in CT my 65 DOES NOT HAVE A TITLE. They do not issue titles for cars that old.When I regestered it in my dads name 23 years ago to save on insureance it became legally his car. in 2004 when I finally regestered in my name he had to sell it to me for a dollar so I could regester it in my name and then I became the legal owner. If the seller does not live in Mass--he probably would not be farmiliar with the laws there. In his state he could have had it legally owned and regestered with no title---I do.

Mikes65

The acquisition of a certificate of title for any vehicle manufactured prior to 1981 shall not be required. The commissioner, in his discretion, may issue such certificate of title for such a vehicle
This is from the CT DMV site---prior to 1981 no title is necessary. They must just do a search to see if it listed as stolen--if not and you have possession so it is yours! So---Just regester it in CT and you are done!! Well that is if they do not verify the Vin--I do not recall them checking mine in 04-all done off the paperwork back then--laws may have changed.

jaunty75

This is very interesting. So what do YOU do if you want to sell the car, and the buyer lives in a state where the old title needs to be turned in to get a new title? Here in Ohio, I had to give the DMV office the old West Virginia title for the '73 Custom Cruiser I bought last January. It had to be signed by the seller, and then they would give me a new Ohio title. I have no idea what would have happened had I walked in there and asked to title a car that I did NOT have a signed, old title for. I'm guessing they have some way of dealing with a situation like this, but I'm glad I didn't have to go through whatever it was.


P.S. I apologize to old-cars for implying that he might have sold his car illegally. He doesn't say what state he's in. Maybe it has the same policy as Connecticut.


But this brings up another question. While your car might not have had a title, it still has its VIN tag, doesn't it? So if you ever sell this car to someone in next-door Massachusetts, they could get a title made from the VIN.

So we're back to the original question. What do you do if there is no VIN?

jaunty75

I've got another question. How do you prove you own the car? A title is what does that, and I would think that would be true no matter how old the car is.

I mean, they issue deeds to houses no matter how old they are. It's not the fact that you live in the house that shows that you own it. It's that your name is on the deed (or title, or whatever its called).

I would think it would be the same with a car. It's not that you have the keys that makes it yours, it's that your name is on the title. How do CT old car owners deal with this? If someone were to buy your car, what would you give them along with the car and the keys in exchange for the money? A bill of sale of some kind? That you had to sign? Notarized?

jeffreyalman

it's so true that everything varies from state to state. Florida is crazy. They verified the VIN on all 3 (I had to have a paper notarized but the notary did not look but they neglected to register a lien so I got title when the bank should have it.

We use a gal at work that does magic with the DMV

She charges $25 addition for renewals, etc., but when there is a problem, she makes it dissapear.

Happy to forward you her # actually it is Hilary 954-709-3444

Call her, tell her the story, tell her Jeff from Midnight Express told you to call.

Whatever she charges will be worth it.

If you have to reg it in FL or something, so be it, but if you need to have a VIN plate made, just do it. Amazing that you can.

Like gas after a hurricane.

Who cares how much TG they have it and have elec to pump it!

And FWIW IMHO Jaunty is just playing the devil's advocate.

You must try to be objective about this. There are always more than 1 side to a story.

It will all be fine.

cfhcar

I had to get a VIN replacement on 71 detla88 I bought in OK. VIN was missing. Had to get paperwork from dept. of revenue and take it and the car to highway patrol for them to you at police VIN numbers then send paperwork and wait for the highway patrol to call me back and then took car back to them and they attach VIN plate in door sill area. I have seen a few of these done from different states. Have mo. state inspection license and if you bring a car in from another state it has to have state inspection or
a VIN verification

Ddbord

_________________________________________________

When I bought my '65 Jetstar 88 from the original owner, he gave me the original bill of sale from the dealer in Chicago, and an Illinois auto title.

When I registered the car in South Carolina, they had a big problem because of the age of the car. They told me that the title was too old to be reliable, and they could not rely on the title or the mileage.

So, they gave me a title based on the Bill of Sale that I had made up and printed (by computer) with both the seller and the buyer agreeing to the price ($1.00 and other considerations) and both stating and attesting that the mileage was 56, 288 miles. The BOS was not notarized and no one looked at the VIN.

They would NOT put the mileage on the title, but stated "Unknown!" I asked how I could get the mileage put on the title, they told me to re-title the car and verify it as the new owner!

Another $15.00 to the DMV!

Good Luck, guys. '

--Don

jaunty75

Thank you!

He calls me "vindictive." What a laugh! What on earth do I have to be vindictive about? I have no dog in this fight. I couldn't care less if Bob5973 gets his car titled or not. I hope he does.

As I said earlier, this thread was started by the SELLER, and I was giving my half-baked advice with that in mind. I'm guessing what I told him might not be that much different from what his attorney might tell him. That is, if the sale was legal and aboveboard, then the deal is done, and he no further interest in this matter. Sales like this are usually considered "as-is where-is." He should walk away and let the buyer sort out the title problems. By continuing to involve himself in the issue after the fact, he potentially leaves himself open to some sort of legal entanglement. Being a Good Samartian is one thing. But Good Samaritans get sued sometimes!

jaunty75

Ddbord, interesting story.

The bill of sale proves that the guy you bought it from paid for it, but it didn't prove that he owned it when he sold it to you. The title proved that. Now that you have the bill of sale, it's a nice historic artifact. If you aren't already doing so, you should frame it and take it to the car shows!

rocketraider

Notarized bill of sale is recognized as legal in more than one state. Alabama and Georgia come to mind offhand. Neither titles cars more than 12-15 years old IIRC. Got into that with a 66 Bonneville several years back that came thru Georgia. It freaked the NCDMV people, but one of them was smart enough to call Georgia DMV and find out what was going on.

Question remains, what happened to the VIN plate? I can't imagine anyone ripping it off to clone another 65 Starfire, esp when all it tells you is year, series, assembly plant and sequential VIN.

joe_padavano

Kind of my thought as well. I can actually see how a VIN tag on the door post could have been knocked off, but HOW do you "lose" the VIN tag on a newer car (like the 1971 described above) where the tag is at the base of the windshield?

Also, FYI, there are no full VINs stamped on the frame or elsewhere, only VIN derivatives like the ones on the block and trans of 68-up cars.

old-cars

Hello everybody and thanks for your inputs (both good and bad). I am the seller and both the buyer and I are honest people and trying to do the right thing. No animosity at all, just trying to work together to solve the problem. I live in Maine and they ABSOLUTELY do not issue titles on cars more than 15 years. I really didn't realize the VIN tag was missing as I own 20 cars and it has never come up as an issue. In Maine, a registration is proof of ownership (for 15 year old cars and older) and when accompanied by a bill of sale it can be sold to anyone. The car was changed in color by a previous owner and this could possibly explain the missing vin plate (the car is 45 years old). I did check with NJ and the verified that the car was previously titled in NJ but could not give me prior owner info due to privacy laws. ( It IS NOT listed as stolen).
NJ advised the best course of action is to get Maine to issue a new VIN and I am pursuing this.
The data plate is present and readable. Joe mentioned that "fragments" might be found elsewhere on the car. If we can get the sequence number from another location, I'm sure I can convince Maine to issue a new VIN as they are pretty reasonable especially compared to MASS. Any thoughts as to where this could be hidden? Thanks again.
Paul

stevengerard

Yep, next to the internet where everything is true an episode of Law and Order would be the next best place to get legal advice
As we can see the laws differ greatly about VINs in many states. Sounds like the two are working it out the best way they can.

jaunty75

You're not thinking like a crook! One obvious reason to remove it is to use it on another car that was stolen so that that other car would no longer have the VIN from the stolen vehicle.

Or, someone had a '65 Starfire that was missing its VIN tag for one reason or another, and he just wanted a correct '65 Starfire VIN tag to complete the restoration of that car.

Jamesbo

As a "master of the Obvious" I would go down to the DMV in the buyers state and tell them what happened and ask them what to do.

Bob5973

As the buyer of subject car and living in MA. the problem is not so much registering the car from a Bill Of Sale but the State inspection process comes into play. When you go for inspection in this case only a safety inspection they need to verify the registration to a vin number, no available vin number no inspection, then registry revokes your registration.

Like I said earlier I bought the car after a length conversation with old-car, not thinking that the vin tag was missing since he had the car registered in Maine. Vin tags should not be removed, I believe it is a Federal law not just a State law.

They were put there for the protection of the consumer and yes MA is very stringent in their vehicle registration requirements. They are trying to protect consumers from purchasing stolen or salvaged cars.

If oldcar can replicate thru the state of Maine a replacement vin tag with the original vin numbers we should not have a problem. I believe when oldcar purchased the car form the owner in NJ the vin tag was missing then. I don't feel it went missing after he made his purchase. It probably got taken off in the painting process.

stevengerard

Bob, you would know this better than I but do they even inspect a car that old. Here in Illinois they do not do inspections for cars older than 15 years I believe. I do not remember ever testing my 442

joe_padavano

Right, because customer service is Job One at the DMV...

I don't know about your state, but here if I went into the DMV and told them I had a car without a VIN tag, they'd tell me to report to the police.

Bob5973

In Mass. all cars get inspected, prior to 1995 cars have to have a safety inspection annually after 1995 tyhe must have emissions and safety checks annually.

I think it will only get worse ,it is a good revenue stream for the State

Jamesbo

Joe,

Ya gotta smile and be nice and find the ONE worker that's good. When I go, if she's not there that day or at lunch, I make a U turn and leave.

cfhcar

the vin plate on the 71 delta 88 rust away from windsheild leak and there a big rust hole in cowl /dash area. but it does not matter state looks at as missing and long its not stolen and paperwork good they will relace it.
they do the same if it is a theft recovery or rebuilt mising vin plate but you got to prove where everything came from and have invoice with vin no.