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My son's Grandpa gave him a 69 442 "holiday edition" it uses the 455 fuel pump so I figured 455, right? Maybe, maybe not. The plugs I ordered do not fit. They are the the ones that take the 'fat' plug socket and have the compression seal washer (that sound right?). And ALL choices for that year were some iteration of the same 'fat plugs'. We pulled one out and it took the 'skinny' plug socket and had the taper or bevel fit and were, no kidding, 666 Autolites. My question is; Are the plugs from hell what came in it originally or was it the 'fatties'?
My son's Grandpa gave him a 69 442 "holiday edition" it uses the 455 fuel pump so I figured 455, right? Maybe, maybe not. The plugs I ordered do not fit. They are the the ones that take the 'fat' plug socket and have the compression seal washer (that sound right?). And ALL choices for that year were some iteration of the same 'fat plugs'. We pulled one out and it took the 'skinny' plug socket and had the taper or bevel fit and were, no kidding, 666 Autolites. My question is; Are the plugs from hell what came in it originally or was it the 'fatties'?
All 1964-1990 Oldsmobile V8 fuel pumps interchange, so that's no indication of engine size. Check the casting number behind the water pump, which will tell you exactly what engine it is. By the way, this one IS a 455.
I've never known Olds engines to use the 5/8" "peanut plugs" - That's more of a Chebby thing.
The correct AC R45 or R46 crosses to an Autolite 306, 316, or 317.
The 666 crosses to an AC R43, 44, 45, or 46 TS plug, which is a tapered-seat plug with an extended tip, which is wrong.
Did this engine run?
Welcome to ClassicOlds.
- Eric
ps: There is no such thing as a "Holiday Edition" Olds.
If the car has no center, or "B" pillar, then it is an Oldsmobile 442 Holiday Coupe.
Have you confirmed that the VIN begins with "34487"?
Yeah, absolutely and it runs good. When Papaw says "it'll run", that translates to "it's a beast". The number requested by Joe Old(S) fart is 395558 which makes it a 73-74 350 but those are supposed to take the 'fat' plugs too. I guess I'll have to take a valve cover off as it appears the heads are a different animal. I am a Chevy man with a Pontiac fetish so Buick an Olds are uncharted territory for me, hence the membership to this board. I appreciate you and Joe's input on this. Thanks
Last edited by Kraven Moorehead; February 18th, 2017 at 05:13 PM.
Reason: Forgot an item
Yeah, absolutely and it runs good. When Papaw says "it'll run", that translates to "it's a beast". The number requested by Joe Old(S) fart is 395558 which makes it a 73-74 350 but those are supposed to take the 'fat' plugs too. I guess I'll have to take a valve cover off as it appears the heads are a different animal. I am a Chevy man with a Pontiac fetish so Buick an Olds are uncharted territory for me, hence the membership to this board. I appreciate you and Joe's input on this. Thanks
395558 is the casting number used on every single 350 block Olds cast from 1968 to 1976. The VIN derivative stamp below the no. 1 spark plug will tell you the exact year. The second character of the stamp is the year - 9=1969, 1=1971, etc. The casting number for the heads is located above the center two exhaust ports.
Look on the heads, you'll find a number (SB) or letter (BB) cast into it at bottom left as you face the head. Some later heads used the taper seat 5/8" plugs.
Look on the heads, you'll find a number (SB) or letter (BB) cast into it at bottom left as you face the head. Some later heads used the taper seat 5/8" plugs.
The 307s actually used 5/8" plugs with gaskets, not taper seat. If that's what's on this car, the early 350 block has later heads.
That's not the VIN, that's the Fisher Body tag (aka "cowl tag"). The VIN is visible through the lower part of the windshield on the driver's side. This distinction is important on 1968-69 cars because Olds built real 442s with Cutlass cowl tags in those years. This is well documented, but often leads to confusion. The ST69 336... number is a Cutlass cowl tag. The VIN for a real 442 will start 344...
Looks like a 34 under the #1 plug so 1974? Been in a barn for eons (hard to call it a barn "find" when we knew it was there) so we cleaned the tank and changed the sending unit first thing. That's why it's jacked up in the rear.
Pics.
Last edited by Kraven Moorehead; February 20th, 2017 at 09:30 AM.
Reason: forgotten items
Right again, I asked my boy for the number off the plate under the windshield and that's what I got. Shoulda done it myself. As an aside I sent him out to pull the starter off an OT vehicle and he came in with half of it. I was absolutely amazed. The plate is rusty and the 4th digit is indiscernible but I got 344_79. And I believe 3A is what is stamped on the machined surface of the block albeit not an inch high, more like 1/4" high.
Last edited by Kraven Moorehead; February 20th, 2017 at 11:53 AM.
Right again, I asked my boy for the number off the plate under the windshield and that's what I got. Shoulda done it myself. As an aside I sent him out to pull the starter off an OT vehicle and he came in with half of it. I was absolutely amazed. The plate is rusty and the 4th digit is indiscernible but I got 344_79. And I believe 3A is what is stamped on the machined surface of the block albeit not an inch high, more like 1/4" high.
The VIN will be 344879.....
3 = Oldsmobile Division
44 = 442 model line
87 = Holiday Coupe
9 = 1969 model year
The next character will be a letter or number for the assembly plant.
The final six are the sequential build number.
It's a real 442, and not surprisingly the engine has been replaced at some point.
So, it's a 307? I wonder where Papaw got the idea that it would run? Maybe it's had work done. We'll know more when we get brakes and tires on it. Are those the original wheels?
No. Please go back and read all the posts above, specifically posts #6 and #19.
395558 block is a 1968-1976 350 block
3A heads are 1977-1980 350 heads
307s were not the only Olds motors to use small plugs, just an example of one.
You DO have a frankenmotor 350, however. I ASSUME those are 3A heads, since you said "34", which doesn't exist, but "4" can be mistaken for "A" under the grease and rust. This is why I suggested waaaay back in post #6 that you provide the head casting number located above the two center exhaust ports. Sorry to be blunt here, but trying to help you is like playing twenty questions. We've told you specifically what numbers to provide (preferably with photos) and you don't. Kinda hard to help under these conditions.
If those really are 3A heads, they have the large-ish 75 cc combustion chambers. If the short block is an older one with high compression pistons, this would not have been uncommon in the 1980s to lower the CR as a way to allow the car to run on low octane gas. As for the car being able to "run", I find most people who have never driven a real 1960s big block musclecar think any American car with a V8 is "fast". Depends on your point of reference.
Well regardless of what engine it has, it looks like a solid basis for a build. A real 4-4-2 and with minimal rust to boot (looks like you'll need a new decklid though) -- thanks, Grandpa!
All you need now is to find a 455 to pop in there -- now that'll run!
Yeah blunt, I get it. It's okay man. I used to go through the same thing when I had to deal with the public. Be assured, I am trying. I looked for the casting numbers above the two center exhaust ports. there aren't any. And I thought we were going with 3A too.
"We've told you specifically what numbers to provide (preferably with photos) and you don't". If you look, there is a good picture of the left side of the block and as stated, there are no numbers in the location specified.
"I find most people who have never driven a real 1960s big block musclecar think any American car with a V8 is "fast". Depends on your point of reference".
You may be right. Papaw is getting old but he has had a lot of fast cars and bikes and has a short leg to prove it. He still has an old Chrysler with a Hemi that scared the living crap out of me back in the early 90's. I won't get back in it. Personally, I hope it (the 442) is more mild than wild because of who will be driving it. Thanks for your help. Sorry it was tough.
The photo you posted is too far away and at an angle that makes it impossible to see. Wire brush the rust off of that area. On 3A heads, that number will be 554716.
I think the "Frankenmotor" is fine for now. As for the deck lid, I plan on welding in a piece of metal because what you see is all the rust there is on it (the deck lid). I'm gonna put some patch panels in the quarters and at the bottom of the fenders then put it in primer and let the big dog eat til baby boy saves up for a paint job. The only thing we are gonna change is the hood. Do you think those are the original wheels? Something makes me think they belong on a Buick.
It's fine if you feel a frankenmotor is fine, but you still need to determine exactly what you have. Otherwise you'll forever be buying the wrong parts to maintain it -- parts like, ummm, sparkplugs.
I think the "Frankenmotor" is fine for now. As for the deck lid, I plan on welding in a piece of metal because what you see is all the rust there is on it (the deck lid). I'm gonna put some patch panels in the quarters and at the bottom of the fenders then put it in primer and let the big dog eat til baby boy saves up for a paint job. The only thing we are gonna change is the hood. Do you think those are the original wheels? Something makes me think they belong on a Buick.
Those are SuperStock I wheels, also called Magnum 500 by other manufacturers. They were a $90.58 option on a 1969 442 (RPO PO5).
Yep, it was crudded upand blended with the rust. Looks like 411 929
411929 are the 1973-1976 350 heads. The large raised number near the no. 1 and no.8 plugs should be an "8". These heads came with R46S spark plugs, which are DEFINITELY the 13/16" hex plugs with a 14mm thread.
I'll also point out the 411929 heads, the 395558 block, and the intake with a cap over the EGR valve location are all consistent with a 1973-76 350 motor. I'll also note that the carb APPEARS to be the one for the original 400 motor, and in particular, it appears to be configured for the divorced choke used on that motor. Since the intake on this 350 was designed for a carb with an integral choke and does not have any provision for a divorced choke, I assume the choke is non-functional.
So just to clarify, it's not a cobbled up motor. Block is 68-76 350 and heads are 73-76 so in all probability it is a 73-76 350?
"I assume the choke is non-functional".
right again, the choke is wired open. I was going to run a manual choke but the operating rod is inside the carb housing. To put it back original, I would have to locate the correct carb. I am thinking we would be money ahead to just buy an Edelbrock with an electric choke and be done. Any ideas on the correct CFM?
Many options here. You could get a QJet with an integrated choke to put on the existing intake or you could get a '69 350 intake manifold and the original carb and choke would bolt right up.
... the carb APPEARS to be the one for the original 400 motor, and in particular, it appears to be configured for the divorced choke used on that motor.
You would think so, but it's got a right angle fuel inlet, so it can't be a '69 Olds carb.
Also, I would like to re-emphasize what Joe said: The 350 heads were not made for the peanut plugs.
They were made for washer-sealed square seats, and not for tapered seats.
You need to look into this further.
Because of this confusion, you should also confirm the big series numbers on the heads: as noted, on each head, to the left of the leftmost spark plug hole (#1 on the left side, #8 on the right), there should be a 1" high "8" or "3A" (or maybe something else). You really can't miss it.
You would think so, but it's got a right angle fuel inlet, so it can't be a '69 Olds carb.
Good point. I wasn't paying attention to that. It looks fairly new, so it must be a generic Chebby replacement.
Also, I would like to re-emphasize what Joe said: The 350 heads were not made for the peanut plugs.
They were made for washer-sealed square seats, and not for tapered seats.
The stock plugs used a 14mm thread, gasket seat, and 13/16" hex. The AC Delco numbering system decodes R46S as follows:
R = Resistor Plug
4 = 14 mm thread size
6 = heat range
S = extended tip
Note that the default is gasket seat. There would be a "T" suffix for a taper seat plug.
You can also get 14mm gasket seat plugs with a 5/8" hex. As I pointed out above, that's what the 307s use. Not correct for this 350, but they WILL thread in and work.
You need to look into this further.
Not really. He was given the wrong plugs by a clueless parts counter worker.
Because of this confusion, you should also confirm the big series numbers on the heads: as noted, on each head, to the left of the leftmost spark plug hole (#1 on the left side, #8 on the right), there should be a 1" high "8" or "3A" (or maybe something else). You really can't miss it.
The 411929 casting number is plenty of proof. There aren't a lot of Olds heads with casting numbers that start with 41xxxx anyway, so it is unlikely that these are something else.
He was given the wrong plugs by a clueless parts counter worker.
This thread's already getting long enough to test your memory.
Originally Posted by Kraven Moorehead
The plugs I ordered do not fit. They are the the ones that take the 'fat' plug socket and have the compression seal washer (that sound right?). And ALL choices for that year were some iteration of the same 'fat plugs'. We pulled one out and it took the 'skinny' plug socket and had the taper or bevel fit and were, no kidding, 666 Autolites.
The parts guy gave him the correct plugs (based on the head casting number) - the plugs that were there already were the wrong plugs.
This thread's already getting long enough to test your memory.
Doesn't take much to do that these days...
The parts guy gave him the correct plugs (based on the head casting number) - the plugs that were there already were the wrong plugs.
Techincally, the parts guy likely gave him the correct plugs for a 1969 G-block, but yeah, they would have been closer to correct.
So apparently someone had previously installed the INCORRECT taper-seat plugs. How about a close up photo of one of the plug hole with the plug removed? (Preferably well lit and in focus so we can see the actual seat?)
Well, here's my take on this whole thing. The correct plugs for the original engine in a 1969 442 (the G-block 400) would have been R44S, which are 14mm thread, gasket seat, 13/16 hex.
SOMEONE in the past incorrectly installed R44TS (or equivalent), which are 14mm thread, taper seat, 5/8 hex. Hopefully this has not damaged the seats in the heads.
Again, the correct plugs for a 1973-76 350 motor would be R46S, or equivalent, also 14mm, gasket seat, 13/16 hex.
February 17th, 2017, 02:00 PM
Autolites. My question is; Are the plugs from hell what came in it originally or was it the 'fatties'?
