real57vetteguy

There was a long drawn out debate which ended up in the thread closing. I promised results in which I will give now.
Big block 455 olds, edel heads, 65 442, 200R4 tranny with 3:23 gear.

It breaks down to this, first pull I had a 15+ AFR, timing was low also.
2nd pull after timing slight carb adjustments, AFR was at mid 14's
3rd pull slight timing change, curve limiters installed, spring change, AFR is at high 13-low 14 during rpm range.
3 more pulls were made tweaking and changing timing. AFR stayed high 13l low 14.
The car has more than adequate fuel. we never needed to hook up the elec pump as it was to heavy on fuel to begin with
Total result was a max 412 HP @ 4800 rpm and 490 tq @ 4100 RPM

Thanks to all those who followed the thread. And for all those who doubted, these are your scientific full out real results.
So that being said a good mechanical pump should easily fuel a 450 hp motor as long as it isnt twisting 7500 rpm.

MDchanic

Thank you.

Hard data are just what is needed around here, and on every car forum.

- Eric

LX89mustang

15+ afr is too lean , not too rich .

real57vetteguy

Correct! Sorry

70Wcars

Interesting data. Now bolt on a Drag Radial or Slick, take this same car to the Dragstrip, mild Burnout, throw Trans in Neutral, clear the Plugs, stage the car, launch and see how far before the car " coughs " or " hiccups " for lack of fuel.

Again I am impressed with your tests and applaud your effort. That being said, I think we should qualify the final statement as follows...

" A GOOD Mechanical fuel pump will feed 450 Horsepower in certain instances and environments." Dynos and Drag Strips...two great test methods, but two totally different situations.

Just my experience.

Danny

real57vetteguy

You are correct, but keep in mind the original debate was strictly for a street car, on street tires.

507OLDS

That ride needs some gears.You can go steeper with the 2004R.
Make the engine pull the car,and give us the results.
I would say anything above 400HP is a chance.It may work,it may not.

oldcutlass

I agree with Danny, there is no real world test like the real world.

real57vetteguy

I'm extremly happy with the 3:23's, I'm running 65 mph at 2000 RPM in OD and loving it. I Plan on driving this car, sometimes long distance.

380 Racer

On a drag strip! Try comparing apples to apples.

real57vetteguy

What on a drag strip?
Apples to apples???? I am posting dyno results using a mechanical pump, I am not comparing anything? hahahahahaha that one lost me!
The begining of this debate was "would a mechanical pump supply the needed amount of fuel for a 450 hp street car with a 455, that would never see the drag strip or a set of slicks"

Why do you insist on testing a car that will never ever see the drag strip or slicks on the drag strip running slicks???????

Intragration

This is true. You may have good results at the track, but there are differences, a big one being, the car is moving at the track. Fuel and oil baffles wouldn't exist if we only built motors for dyno tests. I'd still try to run it as-is, I'd prefer running a mechanical pump myself.

380 Racer

Sheesh.....the original thing is you jumped down ah64pilot's throat for doing .60 difference in ET. Just where have you done any testing of Elapsed Time? Your AF ratio shows to me you are running lean just sitting there going nowhere. Could it be lean because of your mechanical fuel pump? Personally I would run a good electric pump to be sure the motor didn't go way lean. You have proven nothing except you know how to waste time and money.

real57vetteguy

Incorrect, I was told by AH64PILOT that MY car would run much better with an elec pump.
So my high 13 AFR shows you I am running lean??????????
Its my time & money, I will waste it however I choose!

380 Racer

So you are telling me you put 412 HP to the rear wheels? That means almost 500 at the flywheel? I highly doubt it......take it to a track and do real world tests like stated earlier.

real57vetteguy

Why????? Its not a drag car, it wil not be a drag car, it will never run on slicks, The fuel pressure never drops below 7 PSI, the AFR is high 13 low 14 all across the board. That is all I need to know to answer the question at hand. The tune is good, the car runs great , it gets the proper amount of fuel in every situation it has been put in. Its not starving out, its not leaning out and one last time
ITS SOLE PURPOSE IS STREET DRIVING ON STREET TIRES!
Stick to the debate! Its about getting the correct amount of fuel,on a street car driven on street tires. If the car isnt running lean nor losing pressure I dont see what else needs to be tested!
You are so wrapped up in wanting to argue you forgot that the original reason AH64PILOT stated that the mechanical pump was not adequate for my car was G-Force from the launch,?????????????????what launch? My faster than normal takeoff from a red light on my 255 radials?
You have yet to explain why a mechanical pump is not adequate for my street car?????
If the pump isnt losing pressure at any point, if the AFR is within proper operating range at all RPM's, if I have the ability to add fuel and make it run even richer then why is the mechanical pump not adequate???

real57vetteguy

Sheesh.....the original thing is you jumped down ah64pilot's throat for doing .60 difference in ET. Just where have you done any testing of Elapsed Time? Your AF ratio shows to me you are running lean just sitting there going nowhere. Could it be lean because of your mechanical fuel pump? Personally I would run a good electric pump to be sure the motor didn't go way lean. You have proven nothing except you know how to waste time and money.

So AGAIN how exactly is high 13 - low 14 AFR show you I am running lean???????????????

380 Racer

This/you are a total waste of my time c-ya.

real57vetteguy

From the begining of this thread you been blurting out comments like someone with Turretts syndrome. See below! your comments are in RED


Originally Posted by real57vetteguy
You are correct, but keep in mind the original debate was strictly for a street car, on street tires.

On a drag strip! we from the begining made it clear the car/cars invloved would never be on a drag strip,
Try comparing apples to apples. as far as apples to apples????? HUH I didn't compare anything at all, I posted results of a dyno test. You lost me there!

Originally Posted by 380 Racer
Sheesh.....the original thing is you jumped down ah64pilot's throat for doing .60 difference in ET. No, I asked why he failed to mention the throttle cable fix where he said his secondaies did not open, I was then told my street car would wake up if I ran a elec pump, and that the G-force of his launch caused the pump to fail.

Your AF ratio shows to me you are running lean just sitting there going nowhere. Could it be lean because of your mechanical fuel pump? high 13-low 14 AFR all across the board is lean on a street engine ??????

Originally Posted by 380 Racer
So you are telling me you put 412 HP to the rear wheels? That means almost 500 at the flywheel? I highly doubt it...Really, and you deduct this how??? Who did my heads? how much and what did they do? Whats my compression ratio? what rods and pistons am I running? What fuel was I running on the dyno, where was my timing, etc etc, Man your awful smart to know what fuel pump I need to be running when you don't even know my build!!!! I'd say you have proven a point, that point being you just want to bash and argue without any basis of knowledge, you dont have a clue whats done to my engine, and you tell me my fuel pump isnt adequate, then turn around and doubt the dyno results???

Originally Posted by 380 Racer
You have proven nothing except you know how to waste time and money. you have proven all you want to do is flap gums and make drama, and argue when you have no clue what my build is, according to you my car is too much for a mechanical pump but couldnt make 412 hp at the tires, so how much power does it make ohh drag Queen?

You have yet to explain why a mechanical pump is not adequate for my street car?????
If the pump isnt losing pressure at any point, if the AFR is within proper operating range at all RPM's, if I have the ability to add fuel and make it run even richer then why is the mechanical pump not adequate??? No answer?

So your theory is to test a fuel pump for adequate supply of fuel the only correct way to do it is bolt on some slicks and hit the strip?? HMM I guess if I have my fuel pump replaced on my new truck the dealership bolts on some slicks and takes it to the track since measuring AFR and checking for pressure loss is not the correct way to do it? BRAVO!!!!!! I am glad your done with this thread as you should be, I have never been in a debate where anyone made this many irrational uneducated comments and responses and could never explain their thought process

real57vetteguy

Just a little background info on the engine if anyone is interested in this debate. I purchased the engine from Paul McKee who has been very stand up, many members know him and know the engine.
When purchased it was a low mile 468 that was built for pro touring. The engine made 342 RWHP when I bought it. Paul was running stock exhaust manifolds, a 700 CFM quadrajet, points dist with a pertronix kit, a 220/460 cam for a stock sound, the heads and intake were done by dick miller, beyond and above the cost of heads/intake there was 2600.00 in port work done, the bottom end was done by a local race shop. I'll have to look it up to give part numbers, crank was ground, lightened, balanced and polished. The total build was roughly 17,600 not including the cost of the block.
When I got the engine I had it torn down, everything inspected, more head work on the exhaust side, a little more port work on the intake, I had Mark Remmell grind a cam that was 232/568, cam was degreed, added headers and larger exhaust, HEI dsitributor and new coil, better exhaust, Patrick james Profuel systems carb built for it and then the results. It dynoed 70 more RWHP which isnt extreme seeing that the carb and exhaust was probably hurting the 342 RWHP that it dyno'd when I bought it.

captjim

It is generally accepted that 12.8 to 1 is the ideal A/F ratio for max power. Like everything, there are exceptions. Low 14 to 1 is a bit lean.

real57vetteguy

We have always ran 12.2-12.8 on supercharged or nitrous engines, and 13-14.5 on naturally asp street engine's with great results.

captjim

I won't say you are incorrect, "lean is mine", you certainly don't want it fat and sloppy, but again, most guys I know shoot for high 12.x to 1. IMHO, 14.5 is a bit lean.

Edit: here is a pretty typical example,
12.8-12.9 http://www.realoldspower.com/phpBB2/...ic.php?t=84143

real57vetteguy

I agree with you, I was running 13.8-14.3, 14.3 at the leanest point. It's my understanding that 12.8-13.5 is actually ideal for best performance. If we played with it a little more I could get to that point with some carb adjustments, but paying by the hour, I was happy being that close. Being that close I really don't consider it running lean, most new cars run at 14.7. I dont think I am in any way close to harming the engine.

olds 307 and 403

The track is the real test on any car. I thought my Olds was blazing fast, it wasn't. With it's maybe 275 hp, at the track it ran out of fuel with a fairly new fuel pump. In therory that should have never happened. A new better mechanical pump fixed it but still may be lean. Slicks helped my 2.8 60 fts but killed my converter and broke rear end parts. That's why I am going through the car front to back before it hits the track again. I guarantee the fuel pump and carb would not cut it, even if I could run it with aluminum heads.

MDchanic

BUT IT'S A STREET CAR! HE SAYS HE'LL NEVER DRIVE IT ON THE TRACK!

Sorry for yelling, but c'mon, this is getting ridiculous.

- Eric

real57vetteguy

Thank you all for the PM messages, and thanks MD for helping get the point across.
I put a ton of time into this and money. It should be the end of the debate. A good mechanical fuel pump putting adequate fuel into a 450 even plus engine should be fine as long as you have proper lines and a good carb!!! on a street car with street tires.
end of debate