Dizzy Adjustable vacuum advance??
March 17th, 2014, 09:16 PM
#1
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Dizzy Adjustable vacuum advance??
Hi guys,
If you've been following my progression of the resurrection of the '66 Toronado I pulled from a 14 plus year storage and my attempts to get her running and tuned up; you may be able to answer another question I have regarding the Vacuum Advance. Specifically about the possibility of needing to upgrade to an adjustable vacuum advance, and maybe some better weight return springs. So with all the help I have received thus far I believe I have everything dialed in just right, using the proper tools. The problem now is top end power and pinging when accelerating. Would it behoove me to try an adjustable vacuum advance or new weight return springs? If so how does one make adjustments with tune up tools with the adjustable vacuum advance. Any input would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks Dan
If you've been following my progression of the resurrection of the '66 Toronado I pulled from a 14 plus year storage and my attempts to get her running and tuned up; you may be able to answer another question I have regarding the Vacuum Advance. Specifically about the possibility of needing to upgrade to an adjustable vacuum advance, and maybe some better weight return springs. So with all the help I have received thus far I believe I have everything dialed in just right, using the proper tools. The problem now is top end power and pinging when accelerating. Would it behoove me to try an adjustable vacuum advance or new weight return springs? If so how does one make adjustments with tune up tools with the adjustable vacuum advance. Any input would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks Dan
March 18th, 2014, 01:11 AM
#2
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Location: Grass Valley Ca
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Dan with todays fuel even with the so called premium grade,your high compression engine is not going to be happy(pinging).Yes timing modifications will help.Less timing ie retarded will lessen detonation (pinging)It will also lessen power, run little hotter.You don't want ported vacuum advance .Others will chime in.Nick
March 18th, 2014, 03:21 AM
#3
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Location: The Hudson Valley
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+1. First and foremost, at stock timing settings, with commercially available fuel, your car WILL ping, and will ultimately destroy itself, breaking rings, shattering pistons, hammering rod bearings, and recessing valves.
A '66 Toro engine is, I believe, a nominal 10.5:1 (could be 10.25:1, I'm not looking right now). That's a lot of compression for iron heads and a mild cam.
This engine was designed to run on roughly 96 octane (by the current AKI standard), if not 97. The highest I've seen in stations in the last ten years is 93.
If you run it on commercial gas without retarding the timing, you will destroy it. I have encountered engines like this - it was common in the eighties, when people drove these "old, beat-up cars" on whatever was available because they just didn't care.
The simplest, good old fashioned solution is to use the highest octane fuel available and retard the timing until it doesn't ping (somewhere between 2 and 5°). This will, as mentioned above, reduce performance and fuel economy and increase heat.
The next solution is to use an octane boosting additive. I personally like tetraethyl lead, as it is the "old standard," but other things like toluene will work as well. You can get Octane Supreme several places, including here. It does work.
If you want to try to custom re-tune your timing, you can, but, really, you're just sticking your finger in the dike, because your compression and your octane are not going to change.
- Eric
A '66 Toro engine is, I believe, a nominal 10.5:1 (could be 10.25:1, I'm not looking right now). That's a lot of compression for iron heads and a mild cam.
This engine was designed to run on roughly 96 octane (by the current AKI standard), if not 97. The highest I've seen in stations in the last ten years is 93.
If you run it on commercial gas without retarding the timing, you will destroy it. I have encountered engines like this - it was common in the eighties, when people drove these "old, beat-up cars" on whatever was available because they just didn't care.
The simplest, good old fashioned solution is to use the highest octane fuel available and retard the timing until it doesn't ping (somewhere between 2 and 5°). This will, as mentioned above, reduce performance and fuel economy and increase heat.
The next solution is to use an octane boosting additive. I personally like tetraethyl lead, as it is the "old standard," but other things like toluene will work as well. You can get Octane Supreme several places, including here. It does work.
If you want to try to custom re-tune your timing, you can, but, really, you're just sticking your finger in the dike, because your compression and your octane are not going to change.
- Eric
March 18th, 2014, 09:20 AM
#4
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Thanks Guys,
I forgot to add the Octane Boost. makes sense, Especially since first tank of gas I drove through I did remember. Of course, I tried to remember everything the first tank, since the car hadn't been ran since 1996. How about lead additive, will I need that to prevent valve damage, or is that what you are talking about when you refer to tetraethyl lead? I live close too the Motor Speedway which is the only place that sells 97 or higher octane gas, but it is sold in 55 gal. barrels. I can't find even 93 Octane at gas stations here, 91 seems to be the highest available at the pump. Additives, like Octane Supreme, are readily available though.
Thanks Guys
I forgot to add the Octane Boost. makes sense, Especially since first tank of gas I drove through I did remember. Of course, I tried to remember everything the first tank, since the car hadn't been ran since 1996. How about lead additive, will I need that to prevent valve damage, or is that what you are talking about when you refer to tetraethyl lead? I live close too the Motor Speedway which is the only place that sells 97 or higher octane gas, but it is sold in 55 gal. barrels. I can't find even 93 Octane at gas stations here, 91 seems to be the highest available at the pump. Additives, like Octane Supreme, are readily available though.
Thanks Guys
March 18th, 2014, 10:40 AM
#5
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Eric is this what you use? Here is a link for the "tetraethyl lead: www.OctaneSupreme.com . Just curious if the other brands out there will work with similar results?
March 18th, 2014, 12:20 PM
#6
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I found one more supplier here http://www.wildbillscorvette.com/OctaneSupreme01.htm
If anyone has additional sources or good quality substitute please post a link.
If anyone has additional sources or good quality substitute please post a link.
March 18th, 2014, 12:43 PM
#7
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Not trying to be a cheapskate nor ignorant, but this is what is readily available to me OTC, along with 91 octane pump gas. My first tank of gas I made a cocktail using these over the counter products (OTC). When I am out of, or in dire need of Octane Supreme 130, and quite simply have to wait for an order to arrive, I am not real sure if any of these products could suffice.
March 18th, 2014, 01:53 PM
#9
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The first thing to figuring out what to add is to know what your timing is doing. You need to see where your timing advance actually stops in rpms and how much you have with the vacuum advance disconnected and plugged and connected.
You need a set back timing light and with it connected to the number 1 spark plug slowly rev it up to 4500 rpm. The timing light dial needs to be set to 36 and you monitor the 0 mark on the balancer. The timing advance should be all in at around 2500-3000 rpm. In most cases a stock distributor will keep advancing at the higher rpms, this can be problematic if your trying to set a higher initial timing at curb idle. You don't want the timing to exceed 36 total advance. Total equals your initial timing that was set at curb idle plus the amount mechanical advance that comes in at the higher rpm's.
What I normally do is adjust and set my total at 34-36 degrees at around 3000 rpm's and then see where my initial winds up and I don't adjust it at the curb idle level. Then I tighten my distributor bolt and take it for a ride leaving the vacuum advance disconnected and monitor for pinging (detonation), if some is present I decline the timing by 2 degrees at a time until it's gone.
Then I connect the vacuum advance and run the engine up to around 4000 rpm with timing dial set to 50 and monitor what the timing is and if the total with vacuum goes over 50 then you will need an adjustable vacuum advance or make a stop to limit it.
Then I take it for another ride and look listen for pinging at light acceleration going up a hill and also feel for engine surge at cruise. If either is present then I adjust just vacuum canister down 2 degrees until it goes away.
This is a more in depth article on timing:
http://www.angelfire.com/on/geebjen/timing.txt
There is a lot of good info here also for Olds specific reading.
http://www.442.com/oldsfaq/ofign.htm
You need a set back timing light and with it connected to the number 1 spark plug slowly rev it up to 4500 rpm. The timing light dial needs to be set to 36 and you monitor the 0 mark on the balancer. The timing advance should be all in at around 2500-3000 rpm. In most cases a stock distributor will keep advancing at the higher rpms, this can be problematic if your trying to set a higher initial timing at curb idle. You don't want the timing to exceed 36 total advance. Total equals your initial timing that was set at curb idle plus the amount mechanical advance that comes in at the higher rpm's.
What I normally do is adjust and set my total at 34-36 degrees at around 3000 rpm's and then see where my initial winds up and I don't adjust it at the curb idle level. Then I tighten my distributor bolt and take it for a ride leaving the vacuum advance disconnected and monitor for pinging (detonation), if some is present I decline the timing by 2 degrees at a time until it's gone.
Then I connect the vacuum advance and run the engine up to around 4000 rpm with timing dial set to 50 and monitor what the timing is and if the total with vacuum goes over 50 then you will need an adjustable vacuum advance or make a stop to limit it.
Then I take it for another ride and look listen for pinging at light acceleration going up a hill and also feel for engine surge at cruise. If either is present then I adjust just vacuum canister down 2 degrees until it goes away.
This is a more in depth article on timing:
http://www.angelfire.com/on/geebjen/timing.txt
There is a lot of good info here also for Olds specific reading.
http://www.442.com/oldsfaq/ofign.htm
March 18th, 2014, 01:57 PM
#10
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Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 59
The first thing to figuring out what to add is to know what your timing is doing. You need to see where your timing advance actually stops in rpms and how much you have with the vacuum advance disconnected and plugged.
You need a set back timing light and with it connected to the number 1 spark plug slowly rev it up to 4500 rpm. The timing light dial needs to be set to 36 and you monitor the 0 mark on the balancer. The timing advance should be all in at around 2500-3000 rpm. In most cases a stock distributor will keep advancing at the higher rpms, this can be problematic if your trying to set a higher initial timing at curb idle. You don't want the timing to exceed 36 total advance. Total equals your initial timing that was set at curb idle plus the amount mechanical advance that comes in at the higher rpm's.
What I normally do is adjust and set my total at 34-36 degrees at around 3000 rpm's and then see where my initial winds up and I don't adjust it at the curb idle level. Then I tighten my distributor bolt and take it for a ride leaving the vacuum advance disconnected and monitor for pinging (detonation), if some is present I decline the timing by 2 degrees at a time until it's gone.
Then I connect the vacuum advance and run the engine up to around 4000 rpm with timing dial set to 50 and monitor what the timing is and if the total with vacuum goes over 50 then you will need an adjustable vacuum advance or make a stop to limit it.
Then I take it for another ride and look listen for pinging at light acceleration going up a hill and also feel for engine surge at cruise. If either is present then I adjust just vacuum canister down 2 degrees until it goes away.
You need a set back timing light and with it connected to the number 1 spark plug slowly rev it up to 4500 rpm. The timing light dial needs to be set to 36 and you monitor the 0 mark on the balancer. The timing advance should be all in at around 2500-3000 rpm. In most cases a stock distributor will keep advancing at the higher rpms, this can be problematic if your trying to set a higher initial timing at curb idle. You don't want the timing to exceed 36 total advance. Total equals your initial timing that was set at curb idle plus the amount mechanical advance that comes in at the higher rpm's.
What I normally do is adjust and set my total at 34-36 degrees at around 3000 rpm's and then see where my initial winds up and I don't adjust it at the curb idle level. Then I tighten my distributor bolt and take it for a ride leaving the vacuum advance disconnected and monitor for pinging (detonation), if some is present I decline the timing by 2 degrees at a time until it's gone.
Then I connect the vacuum advance and run the engine up to around 4000 rpm with timing dial set to 50 and monitor what the timing is and if the total with vacuum goes over 50 then you will need an adjustable vacuum advance or make a stop to limit it.
Then I take it for another ride and look listen for pinging at light acceleration going up a hill and also feel for engine surge at cruise. If either is present then I adjust just vacuum canister down 2 degrees until it goes away.
Last edited by DanOldsMan; March 18th, 2014 at 02:01 PM.
March 18th, 2014, 02:17 PM
#11
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Yes and no. Read the 2 articles I attached and you can also do a google search on your own for power tuning a points distributor. Get an understanding on how your distributor works, what effects timing has on your engine, and why they ping, before you go mixing up octane boosters.
You cannot properly set your timing with a bunch of stuff in your tank and you preferably want to run it without any additives if possible.
You cannot properly set your timing with a bunch of stuff in your tank and you preferably want to run it without any additives if possible.
March 18th, 2014, 02:27 PM
#12
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Location: Massillon, Ohio
Posts: 198
Tune by ear, disconnect and plug vacuum advance, advance timing until it starts to ping, then retard slightly, plug in adjustable advance unit keep reducing until the pinging stops, then your timing is set.
Also, they use a lot of vacuum advance in these things, and every distributor is different, they are not one size fits all when vacuum advance in concerned. A 3502bbl has different needs than a 400 4bbl or a 455 w-30.
Also, they use a lot of vacuum advance in these things, and every distributor is different, they are not one size fits all when vacuum advance in concerned. A 3502bbl has different needs than a 400 4bbl or a 455 w-30.
March 18th, 2014, 07:48 PM
#13
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Sorry, didn't have time to post earlier.
I am one of those who will say that you really don't need lead for the sake of lead. Exhaust valve seat recession is not going to be your problem.
Yes, though, Octane Supreme does contain lead. I don't recommend it because of the lead, but rather because it is definitely an effective way of increasing octane, and because this particular product actually tells you how much your octane will increase per ounce added, which I have not seen on others, which are very careful not to pin themselves down.
None of these things are cheap, so, depending on price, a 55 gallon drum may not be a bad deal.
The downside would be that on trips, it'd be hard to carry enough fuel for the whole ride. It's much easier to carry a small can of octane booster.
I'm sorry to hear that you can only get 91 where you are. That's just shocking, and, I believe, a good explanation for your problem.
Yes, that's it.
That's the same link I posted. 
Personally, I'm not overly fond of those, but if something works for you, that's all that matters.
Eric's (and 1964's) discussion of basic timing setup is good, and I agree with it completely.
However, as good as it is, I believe, with respect, that it misses the point.
You've got a high compression engine designed for 102 Research Octane (about 97 AKI Octane, as used in the US today), and that fact cannot be changed by timing.
Yes, you can detune the engine to run that 91 Octane cockroach urine without damage, but you will lose torque, HP, throttle response, and fuel economy (and going down from about 8mpg is nowhere you want to go
), and it will run hot in the summer.
It's a Band-Aid repair, and not a solution.
A solution would be decreasing compression, installing a different cam to best use the lower compression, and accepting almost-as-good performance from those changes.
I'm happier dropping a pint of toxic lead in when I fill up.
- Eric
How about lead additive, will I need that to prevent valve damage, or is that what you are talking about when you refer to tetraethyl lead?
... the Motor Speedway which is the only place that sells 97 or higher octane gas, but it is sold in 55 gal. barrels. I can't find even 93 Octane at gas stations here, 91 seems to be the highest available at the pump.
... the Motor Speedway which is the only place that sells 97 or higher octane gas, but it is sold in 55 gal. barrels. I can't find even 93 Octane at gas stations here, 91 seems to be the highest available at the pump.
Yes, though, Octane Supreme does contain lead. I don't recommend it because of the lead, but rather because it is definitely an effective way of increasing octane, and because this particular product actually tells you how much your octane will increase per ounce added, which I have not seen on others, which are very careful not to pin themselves down.
None of these things are cheap, so, depending on price, a 55 gallon drum may not be a bad deal.
The downside would be that on trips, it'd be hard to carry enough fuel for the whole ride. It's much easier to carry a small can of octane booster.
I'm sorry to hear that you can only get 91 where you are. That's just shocking, and, I believe, a good explanation for your problem.
Yes, that's it.
I found one more supplier here http://www.wildbillscorvette.com/OctaneSupreme01.htm
Not trying to be a cheapskate nor ignorant, but this is what is readily available to me OTC, along with 91 octane pump gas. My first tank of gas I made a cocktail using these over the counter products (OTC). When I am out of, or in dire need of Octane Supreme 130, and quite simply have to wait for an order to arrive, I am not real sure if any of these products could suffice.
Eric's (and 1964's) discussion of basic timing setup is good, and I agree with it completely.
However, as good as it is, I believe, with respect, that it misses the point.
You've got a high compression engine designed for 102 Research Octane (about 97 AKI Octane, as used in the US today), and that fact cannot be changed by timing.
Yes, you can detune the engine to run that 91 Octane cockroach urine without damage, but you will lose torque, HP, throttle response, and fuel economy (and going down from about 8mpg is nowhere you want to go
), and it will run hot in the summer.It's a Band-Aid repair, and not a solution.
A solution would be decreasing compression, installing a different cam to best use the lower compression, and accepting almost-as-good performance from those changes.
I'm happier dropping a pint of toxic lead in when I fill up.
- Eric
March 18th, 2014, 09:03 PM
#14
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Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 59
So, I added STP octane boost, about a pint to 10 gallons, and major improvement. Still not a hundred percent resolved. I am going to keep using Octane Boost from now on. For ignition timing I am going to try the procedures you guys have provided me with and also order and install the adjustable vacuum advance. I honestly didn't know there was an adjustable vacuum advance available, but when I saw there was I figured there was a reason and well now I know why. I also need to replace the advance weight springs, but can't find a source for them. Anyone have a lead for those?
thanks
thanks
March 18th, 2014, 09:17 PM
#15
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If I am not mistaken, you are running a completely stock, original, low mileage motor, so if your current parts are functional, you may not benefit from custom timing it. On the other hand, you may.
Just get a good feel for your engine's behavior now, so that you can compare it to its behavior with the new settings.
Why? Is your centrifugal advance out of spec.?
- Eric
March 19th, 2014, 08:49 AM
#16
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Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 59
You are correct Eric, I am running a stock engine and I just want it to run like it was designed too. I will play with the timing until I get there, Actually have got it really close with everyone's help, using correct tools and having correct specs. Its a new car for me and I am still learning about it, I have always had Fords in the past and also always upgrade to Electronic Ignitions. This car I want to keep completely stock and as close to original as possible. I don't know if my centrifugal advance is out of spec. but I can see one spring is a little stretched, I would assume new springs won't hurt anything.
March 19th, 2014, 09:38 AM
#17
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In that case, I would recommend checking in the Chassis Service Manual for the advance specs (I can search for them later if necessary, but they are in there), and seeing whether the centrifugal and vacuum advance are behaving as designed.
If the centrifugal is advancing too quickly, then, yes, change the springs (good luck finding stock replacements!), but if not, don't spin your wheels.
- Eric
If the centrifugal is advancing too quickly, then, yes, change the springs (good luck finding stock replacements!), but if not, don't spin your wheels.
- Eric
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