Rebody of Olds Muscle Cars

I know that there have been many threads about "rebody" issues, but I am more curious about the representation or miss-representation of such.

So lets say that you find your dream Olds and the "CURRENT" owner seller is the guy who restored it.

He decided that his body tub was too rusty and too costly to repair. So he buys a rust free body and transfers over the VIN and trim tag to the doner body.

When he sells the car to the next guy he represents that the"original" body was never in an accident and had no rust to repair.

The buyer discovers after the purchase that another complete donor body had been used to restore the rusty car. In fact none of the body parts from the original car are used in the restoration process.

Does the buyer have any recourse against the seller?

 

I'd think that it would vary by state or province. I'm sure a lot of places have fraud legislation in place to provide recourse in such instances.

 

I always thought it was illegal to tamper with the VIN plate?

 

Lets remove the VIN issue for this topic.
What if you had to replace every piece of sheet metal on the car BUT the cowl.
Would this make a difference in your inquiry?
Is this really that different from a rebody , sans the Vin ?
Would you ask for some recourse if you found out some how everything was replaced except the cowl?
If the concern here is the Vin issue. What about replacing the dash top from a rotted windshield? We see guys asking for this same part on here all the time. Does the vin not have to be removed then reattached in the course of this "Restoration". Jail time for you buddy
Recourse,aside from the Vin issue, you have non. The Law if you want to go that route is all about damage. Again, Vin Legalities aside, Where is the damage? where is the unjust profitting by this one aspect? Keep in mind different states have altered/changed the law on "Repairs/restoration" in regards to the Vin. Check your state. Keep in mind also Most Vin laws were based on stolen/fraudulent car issues that never took into account the restoration of cars. Some states are now looking at this differently.

 

This is a big issue in the Corvair community. Some people say the body shell is just another part being replaced, such as a starter or axle. Some people say the body shell is a car in and of itself, since it has the "hidden" VIN that matches the plate.

I've also heard that rebody-ing Yenko Stingers is acceptable to the Yenko Stinger crowd, and also the Mustang Shelby 350/500 crowd thinks it's okay. I can see both sides to the argument but I can tell you I'd be a little tweaked if I bought an "original" car and found out later that it had been rebodied.

 

In my opinion this statement makes it fraud:

"When he sells the car to the next guy he represents that the"original" body was never in an accident and had no rust to repair."

Just like a clone, if the seller is upfront and honest about it then OK. Let the buyer decide what they want to pay for a car with significant portions replaced. I do think this would reduce the value compared to an original car with minor rust repair, like bottom of fenders or bottom of quarter panels.

My 2 cents worth

 

This is a difficult question with many different ways to look at it.I am not in favor of re-body of a car to the extent of whole shell and vin plate transfer. On the other hand if a cowl is damaged to the point the the vin tag is removed while new metal is being put in and then returned to proper location.I think this would need to be documented notarized and remain with title as a attachment.Someone should start a company that has a data base for these type of rebuilds so they can be traced back to the event and what was done.Something like PHS documents.JMO

 

If re bodying is wrong,why did Olds sell complete body shells? A rebody is different than a clone. A clone is a made up car and a rebody is the transfer of parts from a bad body to a good body. This has been debated forever and it comes down to how a person feels about it.

 

I guess i am unaware of these body shells for sale. Can you explain with a little more info please?

 

Based on your premise that it should be up to the individual making the purchase to decide, what happens when the info is hidden and representations are made to deceive the buyer.

 

In 66/67 Olds listed body shells for sale in the parts book. Section 10.001 has the info. I assume this practice continued for several more years.

 

I not only talking about buyers,I'm talking about Joe 6 pack. I know of OCA advisers who say there is nothing wrong about a rebody because Olds sold body shells. If a rebody is done correctly,how is one supposed to know?

 

This i JMO Stefano and i hope i am not stepping on toes. I would think if some knew that they sold you a car that had been altered with a rebody and did not disclose it when they knew it before hand.I would consider it fraud.Now the law may see it different.Then others on this site may say it is a buyer beware problem. Again this is a JMO and i hope i never have this problem with a car like this!Neeley

 

But the question is for me! Did any actually leave the factory this way? Was this just a option that was listed but not really available? Is there any info to support beside the parts book? Thanks for your reply i was not aware that their was such a possibility!

 

I'm not worried enough to research it. If they listed them,I'm sure some were sold,how many? ..........

 

I see! Thanks for a schooling lesson. Carry on guys and sorry for my many not in the know questions on this subject.

 

Whether or not complete body's were available doesn't change the basis of my question. If someone had used such a body and they hid that fact because it was pertinent to you.....is this fraud or just buyer beware.

Fraud can have both criminal and civil ramifications. You do not have to prove the dollar value of your total loss in a criminal senario and do not have to suffer actual damages in a civil case. With a civil case you just have to prove the damages.

Since no body VINs need changed with an Olds and if the sheet metal dates are close or in line with production, and the job was well done, then who is to know?

Btw, I also was not aware that complete OLDs bodies existed. I have one documented Body in White with a Cuda and one with a Chevy Nova and these were both special circumstances for drag racing applications.

 

A couple of years ago Muscle Car review ran a cool article about the old '68 Chesrown Olds F85/W31 race car that had been found. The article stated that the car had a bad accident on the track & flipped over,destroying the body.There was a pic of the car after the wreck showing the crushed roof,etc. They went on to say that Chesrown received a replacement body from Olds & rebuilt the car using the original frame & drive-train. There was no mention in the article if Chesrown swapped the vin on to the new body. Just wondering since this car is being restored right now(it may be finished already)what would be "right " way to list it in a sale. It's well documented in the cars' history that it had a body swap,so would it still be considered an original W31? In this case I don't think it would bother me too much since the swap was done at an Olds dealer that was very involved in racing & the body came directly from Olds

 

If you have the answers,why the questions?

 

That particular car is a significant piece of OLDs drag racing history.

Can't wait to see it when done.

I'm not seeking the typical rebody debate.......is it Ok to rebody a car......how much less is a re-bodied car worth.......how much metal needs replaced to be considered a rebody.....etc.

If you remove the VIN tag and body trim tag and re-rivet them on to another body and you immediately put the car for sale once complete and then conceal the fact and lie about how the car was restored, then is that an issue or not?

 

This practice Still continues to this day. If you need a new body for your say GM truck, for example, you can still order one.

 

I have my opinions based on my experience, no question about that : )

The issue was recently being discussed privately with some Olds guys, collectors and/or restorers and I was surprised that many felt there was no reason to disclose the issue, or even answer a direct question ( which surprised me ) but all agreed that such disclosure could adversely affect the value of the vehicle.

 

Threads like this never end well. I'll give you my opinion.

It's common to replace every single piece of sheet metal except the "sacred" square inch around the VIN tag. People accept this no problem with Chinesium repro panels and hand-welding. Yet, replace the entire body shell with another original, factory-welded shell built with factory-stamped, factory-thickness panels, and people get all upset. Personally, I'll take the replaced, factory-built shell over repro panels ANY DAY. That's my opinion, but what's the difference between changing the shell and changing the frame?

Should this major a swap be disclosed to a buyer? Absolutely. Failure to do so is fraud, and that's where the VIN swap issue comes in. Transferring the VIN tag to a replacement shell is completely legal under federal law when necessary for a repair, and it is only the "intent to commit fraud" that makes it illegal. Consult a lawyer if you want to pursue this.

 

Thanks and I appreciate all the replies.

I don't think these issues should be swept under the carpet. The musical chairs, last man standing has to deal with it.........is not the way I was raised.

Joe, this is NOT an issue I personally have at hand. I'm not looking for legal advise or for someone to quote State and or Federal statues.

If something like this did indeed happen to me, I am fortunate to have numerous friends, assoc & customers who are attorneys as well as car collectors and are very familiar with such cases. Most of these cases are settle prior to trial.

Just, as an Olds enthusiast, what are your thoughts about the non disclosure and or complicit behavior.

Based on your reply, we share a similar opinion, regarding Fraud.

 

With the type business your in,the mere fact that you would even bring this up for debate puzzles me.

 

If you have another direct question to ask then just fire away.

You have stated what others think about my question. What do you think?

 

Not telling the truth about a car that's for sale (be it late model or classic) seems to be part of our culture. I don't like it and I don't agree with it. However it seems that a lot of people think it's OK not to disclose what they know, or completely cover up what's known about a car. I believe the value is impacted which is why folks are motivated to not remember important negative facts when they are selling. My second point is, if your buying a car that's totally restored and it doesn't come with a picture book of the restoration. You should assume that a lot of the car has been replaced, changed or altered. Just my $.02. ~BOB

 

It's unfortunate but you might be right.

 

Not telling the truth about used cars started when the first used car was sold. Its been going on forever. There is a reason why used car salesmen earned a bad reputation.

Even Barney Fife got screwed on his first car.

 

Where did I have a question? I'm just telling you I know how some of these message board guys think. They read between the lines,look for anything that might give them an indication of what a particular thread means. If you as a dealer are out asking opinions of internet message board members,trust me,they are already thinking what's up.

 

We don't need to debate semantics, but since you asked about my question about your question, I'll answer.

When you said you were "puzzeled" to me that inferred that you had some questions. No you did not use the word " question".

Since your thinking for other board member and not yourself ...."thinking what's up" also infers that there are questions.

Yes, I'm a dealer and also an enthusiast. The questions I asked did not pertain to my business. I discuss many issues, on this site which do not pertain to my business.

Once again I was looking for members / enthusiasts feedback if something like me senario happened to them.

Once you discover my agenda, let us all know LOL. Otherwise maybe we can discuss the controversial Moto GP decision against Valantino Rossi : )

If in the course of my business if someone knowingly and willingly sold me a vehicle which "I" deemed to be a rebody, with the express intent to defraud me, and without disclosure then I would very likely pursue every legal and ethical avenue to recind the deal and get my money back. As well as let as many people know about the situation as I could so that others could be fore warned.

 

Let's try this again. I have no agenda or nor do I question your business practices. I never said you bought or sold a rebodied car or committed fraud. All I said was when you or any other dealer starts asking opinions on a public forum about what constitutes fraud no matter the motive,people will begin to think. Thus my being puzzled about the original content of your question. Another thing,vendors or dealers are in a no win situation when it comes to debating anything on a public forum. I have nothing against you and again,I have no agenda because we never have done business nor will we ever do any business. Please do not put words in my mouth about the meaning of my post,you're assuming something that may or may not be true. I'm not thinking for other board members either,again you are assuming something that may or may not be true.

 

So does this mean that after all this you are still not going to share your opinion?

 

With my response of there's nothing wrong with a rebody,how much clearer can I be? Every part on a car can be replaced including the body shell. With that being said knowing body shells were and are still available,I'm not sure a court would rule against somebody who rebodied a car. What part of a car constitutes the fact that a car is original? is it the body?engine?frame?transmission?tail light bulb?windshield wiper blades? You get my point because it's very clear how I feel about the situation.

 

Thanks, your last post makes your opinion very clear and our opinions do differ.

The senario I presented was a compete body, not partial specifically to eliminate the how much of a car and what parts constitute a re-body.

I don't see where you had directly answered the question prior, sorry if I had missed it. I didn't want to put words in your mouth.

You had stated about olds technical advisors and Oldmobile itself, but nothing as clear as your last post.

So if you sold a rebodied car would you disclose it if the customer asked or didn't ask? Just wanting to be clear.

We have knowingly as well as unknowingly sold rebodied cars in the course of our business.

Like you said prior, once it's all back together , then who's to know?

 

Yes our opinions differ and I'm done with 20 questions. Go fight with Andy,he seems to have a problem with you.

 

Re-body or switching the VIN plate, same thing. Just trying to increase the value of the car by misrepresenting which car it is.

 

Youre talking about my car here.Yes, the resto is still in progress. Frame is almost ready to accept the finished body. YES, the body shell,complete with cowl tag was picked up at Fisher body plantin March 1968. The rebody job was completed in less than 2 weeks. YES. the VIN tag was removed from wrecked body and pop-riveted in place on the new body. We were instructed to do it this way in order to keep the title valid for the car. All done very legal within Ohio motor vehicle laws of the day . The issue of "honesty"always should prevail -- I have no trouble telling someone my car had been re=bodied! In my opinion, a new body shell installed on a resto project carries absolutely no more distinction than a hood, door, or decklid replacement -- remember - "parts is parts" == change or replace em as you see fit!! MOO
Tweed

 

My thoughts.

A rebody to me is acceptable on engineering principles, and preferable to Chineseium Splicing, a la Joe's response above. I am a true American patriot, and a true American patriot believes that many, if not most, of governmental laws are stupid, unnecessary, and made by and for people of low intellect, and the DOT VIN removal laws are no exception.

However, in any sale, you disclose the history you know as part of being honest. If you do not disclose something that hurts the value of the car, and a rebody is such a thing, then it is fraud, and you are a criminal and deserve punishment per the law. If you have a rebodied car, and sell it as such, then I would negotiate a lower price with you than a non-rebody would fetch, then happily accept the car with no reservations at that new price.

 

my question on this silly thread is. Are they really breaking the law. I mean there is an obvious loop hole but lets say this car was in a roll over such as tweeds famed race car and you had to fix it well you re skin it from the fire wall back . Whats wrong with that. This whole correct car bs is getting out of hand. I mean would you want a car with great sheet metal or a car thats been spliced and hacked to crap to keep as much original steel as possible ?????? how many cars ware full quaters replacements from donor cars or donor car fenders or floors. Is that fraud ???? so whats the diffrence if the tag was swapped over or the car was hacked from the fire wall back and replaced. i have seen guys cut the metal with the tags out and carefully tig weld them back onto the donor car and make it look like it was never tampered with. Restoration and preservation are 2 diffrent things. If i am restoring a car and i have a better platform i would swap tags and call it a day. Talent can hide many many things. You honestly think it has not been done before. By definition a restoration means to restore to oringinal condition. So what if that meant it had to be re bodied ????????? Lot of loop holes if you ask me becasue it comes down to technicalities.