I wanted to start a thread because I am doing market research. Obviously, we have two classes of people, small block and big block guys. So, what I would like to know from you guys is what you would want out of a factory iron head if you took it to a builder.

What kind of performance level would you expect, with what parts, and at what price?

Obviously, a set of irons that cost $2500 only capable of 500hp in a 482 cubic inch big block would be stupid (way too expensive). If you say you want 500hp out of a set of small block heads going on a 350 for the tune of $800, you are crazy.

I'd like to get a good conversation going here. Also, let me know if you are talking big block or small block.

If you want to say that irons are dead, that's fine. But be prepared to back up your claims.

 

I could be wrong here but... I would think most guys looking for a few more ponies with a few less pennies would be interested in knowing;

What a given set of heads with what parts could net a buyer for what cost.
Examples would be great,
Such as,
#7a heads, mildly ported, diameter of valves complete = X amount of $$$

I realize their are many different combinations but most guys could use a starting point .
Just a thought !!
Cheers
Eric

 

I am kinda playing a "name your price" game. Obviously there is aluminum stuff in the marketplace so that is a competing factor. I want people to tell me what they would want and at what price.

If you want fully ported heads with the best components known to man for $1000, you are dreaming, but you are more than welcome to dream in this thread so speak your mind.

 

I think your niche market would be to supply the best you can do in the $1000-1200 range complete with valves/hardware, keep a gap from a price of compelte Edelbrocks. SI type valves, good valve job, deck trued (or possibly a guaranteed CC number for all of them), maybe minor bowl blending/porting. That should be good for 450-500 hp in the right BBO combo (heck, Milan's 468 made 482 hp with unported C's, though it's obviously a well thought out combo).

Just my opinion for what I would be looking for, I'm not in the market right now. Good machining and parts eat up a lot of cost, which doesn't leave you a lot of budget to do the porting work.

 

Fair anuff !!
Perhaps a base set price and a dream set price would help.
Aluminium heads have the pricing available, although their seems to be alot of discrepancies as to bolt on out of the box. All this depending on who's doin' who and with what in the game.
Looking forward to hearing more of what may be available to all of us in the near future.
Cheers
Eric

 

^^^^This ^^^^ makes a lot of sense.

Let's face it, since the introduction of the Pro Comp aluminum heads, a lot of guys that were thinking about redoing their iron heads, have given up on that because of the price factor of machining vs the Aluminums. We really are comparing apples to oranges here.

The Aluminum's offer lighter weight, readily available, all new components, and the ability to run higher compression ratios on pump gas.
The cast iron heads are getting harder to obtain good cores, they have an elite following of stock purists, haven't been made in 40 years, can easily out shine the Pro Comps with minimul work, very close to E-brocks out of the box with same slight bowl work, will cost more to ship, the cast irons came in a wide variety of performance levels, port work is more time consuming, they require no modifications to run the stock mechanical fuel pump, the cast iron heads given same identical flow/ combustion chamber/ valve size/ port runner - will out perform any aluminum head because of combustion efficiency and heat retension.

From what I have heard from first hand head builders, the Pro Comps and Edelbrocks have issues straight out of the box. Specifically valve to guide clearances, quality of hardware and valve job. I can not speak for the masses, because I want a max effort cast iron head, but if I was building a street engine, 83hurstguy nailed it right there.

 

from my experience.

1. About 7 years ago i paid RRP about 350 to freshen up a set of 7A heads (1972) that was cleaning the heads , lap the valves , knurl the guides , and a resurface.

2. about 5 years ago i paid RRP just over 1000 for set of heads. the clean the heads was 65, ferrea valves 2.07 1.63 those where 250 , retainers 50 , installing valves 72 , competition valve job 200 , milling the heads 65 , setting spring height 75 , install new guides w/parts was 135 , shims 20 , valve springs 100, valve seals 25 , cut down guides 35 , valve locks 48 , totaling in @ 1140.

That was with no porting , not filling the heat riser , or welding the divider ,

Now Dave (67 cutlassfreak) did a set of cylinder heads and went alll out doing what he does best. If i had to pay for a set of heads like he did for me with big valves , all the porting , welding the divider and filling the heat riser i think somewhere in the 1500 range would be fair to be honest. Specially for a small block becasue by the time you get the heads (eddy) or ( procomp) milled , you will still be well over 1500 and you will need to run an electric pump for the fuel pump and it really snow ***** from there. The fuel pump might be 100 but then are you gonna want new fuel lines for your new pump ? Then for the heads you are going to need to run some nice rockers and studs and probably new head bolts not to mention port matching the intake. Now for a big block i cant speak for that as i have never built a big block but alot of the same things done for the small block will probably need to be done to the aluminums to dial in compression etc etc . I think the initial investment for aluminum heads is a bit steep when you will end up investing money into the them from the get go whether it be bbo or sbo . I doubt anyone will bolt a pair of aluminum heads on an engine with put having them checked out for good measure.

 

I'm not talking about the quality of the aluminum heads, I'm asking what people want out of irons. Lets keep the quality of aluminums out of the equation. What do people want from irons?

If everybody says they want a head for $1000......then I gotta figure out what a $1000 head means with iron. Simple as that.

 

That's kinda where I'm going, but you should still want a good fuel pump when you make power. If you want to run low 12s.

I ran a stock fuel system and went 13.0s with a small block, in a 78 Cutlass, that had a 260 in it (upgraded to a 350). What is the stock fuel line size? 5/16" or 3/8"? Whatever it is it fed my car.

 

Well for me I have a fuel cell and 1/2 in. Fuel line with a high flow mechanical pump. Between the cell , lines , an- fittings , there is about 225 there. Now it has been said guys have gone into the 11's with the stock fuel system specifically fhe guys running in stock classes where modifications are limited.

 

Don, I may have interpreted some of what I have heard wrong. But I would like to get your thoughts on this.
Building an engine with Iron heads, flat tappet cam shafts etc, would be like throwing your money in the garbage.
Apparently this type of build will create huge crankcase pressures that will lead to rear engine seals beginning to leak along with destroying the cam lobes prematurely .
This particular builder seems to think, toss the Irons and go with aluminium heads, roller rockers, hydraulic cams, lifters because of the oils today.
Is this just one builders thoughts to another?

 

Either you did not understand what the builder was telling you or he has no clue what he is talking about.

I guess I dont understand how iron heads and a hydraulic cam creates high crankcase pressure. Crankcase pressure really has nothing to do with material your head is made out of or the camshaft type used. Maybe he said cylinder pressure? To which case your dynamic compression ratio will dictate your cylinder pressures. That is something you plan before you assemble the engine, that being compression ratio.

It sounds like he is saying flat tappet cams and iron heads are obsolete because of aluminum heads and roller cams.

Last I checked, guys are still going fast with iron heads and flat tappet cams. I went 8.48 @ 155mph with a 385" small block chevy with iron heads and flat tappet cam.

 

Surely aluminum is preferred because it doesn't retain heat like iron, helping delay the onset of detonation for any given state of tune?.

Crankcase pressure comes from piston blow-by, worn bores, rings, pistons, or poor machining will do this, nothing to do with the heads.
A head not properly prepared may cause valve spring binding or other issues, and also inadequate lubrication, both will cause cam lobes to wear prematurely.
Again, nothing to do with whether the heads are aluminum or iron, everything to do with the engine machining work being done properly and it being assembled correctly with parts suitable for the job.

Roger.

 

In NHRA Pro stock, they have the choice between aluminum or iron blocks. Dyno tests have shown the iron blocks to make 120hp more then the aluminum block. Why? Because it holds heat in the cylinders. No teams run an aluminum block.

What Dave was saying is that all things being equal, the iron head will make more power than aluminum. Delaying the onset of detonation because of heat dissipation properties does not mean it makes more power, it just means it is less prone to detonation at a given compression ratio.

As long as you do your homework, your iron headed motor should not detonate. That goes for an aluminum headed engine as well.

Think about this.......heat creates pressure, right? What makes torque? It is the pressure of the intake charge ignited applying a force to your piston.

 

I dare say this may not apply to engines only run for seconds down a drag strip, and I don't build race engines. But for a street engine the advantages of aluminum heads were not lost on UK engine builders, and Flathead Ford aluminum aftermarket heads were used by hot rodders half a century ago.

Roger.

 

Interesting thread:

http://speedtalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=42801

 

I can't play the "name your price" game since I live in Sweden and prices are different here (higher...). Besides what has already been mentioned I would also want the heads to be machined for guide plates and rocker studs though.

 

Name your price and then put it through an exchange rate calculator. Obviously, shipping can't be included, but I would like your feedback as well.

In fact, I am a bit disheartened by the lack of response here. I am more than willing to put the time and effort into coming up with something that is both cost effective and has advantages over an aluminum counterpart. Yet, I have very little response. Was this in the wrong forum? Or does everyone think that aluminum can't be beat at any price?

 

I can get a basic rebuild, clean, checked, guides, valve job, done on a set of olds heads at the local napa for about $450. i had a set done for my big block then spent i wanna say $150 to get them milled to bump comp and exhaust milled to get the center divider flush and did the porting myself. so for about $600 i have what i think are a nice set of iron heads. to have all that done and possibly more porting done as well, if it were nearing $1000 id start to consider spending more and going aluminum. Im on the same page as you as far as iron keeping heat in and producing more power, i have nothing against iron but people make power with aluminum more than iron it seems. thats all i have for input.

 

I know that iron headed engines can run fast in certain conditions. I have a friend with a set of E Iron heads on a 461 running 11.50 it could run faster with a little more work. Head cost was$1500. For bracket racing he is maxed unless he puts in roll bar. Run down on heads gasket match, polished in the ports stainless steel valves, new guides divider was welded, heat riser filled,heads were surfaced,set up with guide plates and studs.Carry on guys.

 

Youngolds, I appreciate your input, good food for thought.....wr1970, what does your friends car weigh, and is it on pump gas?

 

Let me put it this way. A few of you might know that 67 Cutlass Freak and myself have been working on iron heads a lot. We have done a lot of research on stock castings (in house testing, not reading off the internet), we have had our work on the flow bench, and even have a dyno date late June to hopefully showcase what we can do.

On top of that, we are in the process of building our own professional flow bench that makes a Superflow 600 look like childs play. At least that's the way I intend on making it. Flowing at 10" depression and converting to 28" is silly. Hell, some machines are only capable of about 28" (the good ones)......I want to flow at 50" of depression and really see what is going on in a port.

There are other things in the works, and other machine purchases waiting in the wing.....I am really looking for as much feedback from as many people as possible.

This thread is for everyone and there is no wrong answer.

 

Sure, I'll give it a try. In these calculations I'll use 1 USD=7 SEK since that is the historically "normal" exchange rate. Just remember that price differences depend not only on currency rates but on the economical system as a whole (taxes/customs/wages etc).

A few examples:
Standard automotive shop rate in Sweden is usually at least $130. Some charge a lot more...
Buying a pair of Edelbrock Chevy E-street heads (5073) will cost you around 10 500 SEK ($1500) in Sweden. Summit lists them for $979.50. So we're talking about a true conversion factor of 10.5 here.


But, back to Olds! This is what I paid for my #2 heads:

Good cores: 1500 SEK
Rebuild: 8500 SEK
This included cleaning, a W31 oversize valve job (5 angles), deck milling (clean up), exhaust flange milling (clean up), solid bronze valve guides, machining for teflon valve seals, back cut intake valves.
I had already bought all parts except guides prior to rebuilding so that has to be added. That's about 3500 SEK. I should note this guy isn't cheap, but he's good - probably one of the better in the nation. Valve job is absolutely beautiful!

So added up that makes 13 500 SEK for a pair of #2:s without porting. Rocker studs/guide plates and machining also not included. Using the above factors and rates that would translate to around $1285 if we speak american (13 500/10.5). Do you follow me?

 

So to sum it up, I'm more or less in the Procomp price range with my old iron... BUT:

I still believe these heads serve my street small block well.
I know everything is correct and within very tight specs.
I like iron... Hell, I even stroked a 330...

Pretending I'm american, all of the above plus pocket porting and rocker studs/guide plates would be worth $1500 to me.

 

Don the weight was 3300 and he run 50/50 but i think he could run pump at 100%. When i say pump all we get that he could use is 91 octane.

 

80 Rocket what your asking is really a tough question, because it is based more on feelings and opinion. It is not something that can be answered easily because there are just to many variables that need to be answered before one can say how much work should be done to cast iron heads.

I get asked this question a lot first "Should I go aluminum or cast?", I don't get asked how much work should I get done to my heads as the first question. This goes for all makes of engines because one can get aluminum heads for just about anything now. Your question should have been "If you HAVE to run cast iron heads what kind of work would you like to see for your application? and how much are you willing to pay for it?"

Usually when I get asked about heads it is for chevys but, no matter what engine I always ask back to them the same questions.
The first thing I ask them is:
'do you have heads now?',
next "what kind are they?",
next "are you planning on using them?"
next 'small block or big block engine?',
next 'are you running a stock class?',
next 'how much power do you want to make?',
next "how much do you want to spend?", and
'is this for street, circle, or drag racing?'.

I guess I could make up a flow chart so people can check off their answers and work out their own answers, it would make my life a little easier. I can't answer your question because I'm am a DIYer and I don't like paying for anything I could possibly do myself. I use cast iron stock except for springs 2.0" "G" heads and make 476 FWhp on my BBO and is good for street/strip duty. But this is the most that these heads can make stock, they did flow 221@28' on the bench. So after 20 years I have a set of half finished max effort "G" heads to finish. I own the heads so they are costing me nothing, I can do eveything to the heads except the valve job and milling, so all the rest costs me nothing except supplies & parts. For milling I usually pay $40 setup and $20 for each 0.010" cut per head. Valve jobs can range from $200 to $1000 depending on what I want or need but, avg. $450 for bracket racing job. I usually pay about $50 for a quick plunge cut if the machine is setup already, it's never setup for Olds.

Well that's my 4 bits (inflation and we got rid of the penny)

Ray

 

I would rethink about making a flowbench capable of 50" vacuum. I have built my own and used Sun benches. My first attemp at making a flowbench out of plywood and steel collased (imploded) at 18"H2O. I know 1 atmosphere is 406"H2O but still 50" is a lot. I don't know what your going to make it out of or the vacuum source but I can't wait to see it. There is a reason that 28"H2O is a popular bench mark. I was going to say that I used to use organge or yellow flourescent paint and a black light to see where my air was going and what it was doing.

Also check out this link it is totally cool , I think you'll really like it. I couldn't get this kind of quality with my bench but it still worked for me and it marked the head so I knew where to grind or not.
http://www.darinmorgan.com/wetflow.htm

http://www.darinmorgan.com/

Ray

 

Ray, great info. Thanks! Also, I got the flow bench plans from PTS. There are guys doing some crazy high depressions and cfm with these PTS benches. I got turned onto them from some guy in South Dakota who is using these benches. His own personal experience has been very helpful and he is kind of helping me along with the process because a lot of this flow bench stuff is greek to me at the moment.

The vacuum source is 8 vacuum cleaner motors (not shop vacs). Obviously, the higher power, higher cfm ones will be what we are after.

 

I think Luke nailed it in post # 4. IMO, your market for iron heads is going to be a small block head with a good valve job, street port job (3-4 hours in each head), milled, with new guides. This for a guy wanting a fun street car that can use the stock valve train and run on pump gas. One big disadvantage of aluminum on SBOs is the fuel pump issue. I think aluminum is a no-brainer for most BBO guys, the advantages outweigh the extra cost, if there even is any. Same goes for a SBO once you are looking at much over 1 HP/CI

From a business point of view, I think you could make it work, especially on a small scale. The main advantage of any production operation is that you can do things in "runs" and save set-up time, which you guys know is significant. You could even have a proven combination, say a 350 HP street engine 9.8 to 1 with the Probes, a cam, and RPM intake. Then, the customer can get all the parts in one place and have his machine work done locally. You could even offer a crank kit with rods, pistons and balancing. The thing is, you will have to stick to 1 option and not do something different for every customer, otherwise you are back to one-off custom builds.

As to the iron making more power, all things equal, perhaps. But, the aluminums allow for more compression, thus a larger cam AND more power, so it really isn't a fair statement. IMHO.

 

I agree with captjim, 1 option for streetable 350HP for the majority of SBO guys that just want a little extra without dropping in a BBO.
1 option one price.
The custom one off's would be great for guys that are wanting to go over the top.
Great idea IMO.
If I had a BBO, I would go with aluminium, not only for cost reasons but weight differences as well more punchin' power.
Cheers
Eric

 

Just to clarify, in case guys are unsure, this ONLY applies to small blocks, there is no fuel pump clearance issue on big blocks, due to the taller deck.

 

I would think filling the crossovers and building up the exhaust for headers would be something people would want in addition to bowl work. Not everyone has the equipment for that. Where you live would make a difference with heavy iron shipping.

 

Jim, I thought your post was well thought out and wanted to respond, just haven't had the time lately. I appreciate your input, I was hoping you would chime in.

My initial thoughts were the small block crowd at first. It seemed like a no-brainer. However, the more I got involved in cylinder heads, and investigating the aluminum market, the more I realized what a losing proposition the whole iron head thing is.

I have had discussions with some of the most respected names in Oldsmobile engine building/machining, as well as Dave (Cutlass Freak). I have come to the conclusion that there is no way we can compete with Pro Comps on cost. It is impossible for us to sell a pair of iron cylinder heads for what you can buy Pro Comps on ebay for.

Now, I know we can do a set of heads that will outperform a set of Pro Comps easily (or should I say, exponentially), for just a few more hundred dollars, and also using better components, as well as having precise machining with every set of heads we sell (that is something you cannot reasonably argue in favor of Pro Comps, or even Edelbrocks for that matter). It is because we are small scale, and actually care about our image that we can do this. But I am to the point right now where I am not sure how many people will actually pay for that service.

It seems price outweighs all other factors to the average person who has no clue how an engine actually makes HP, and lives making that HP for many years to come.

You mentioned having a recipe with the components to make 350hp with a SBO, and I think that's a great idea......but where you lose me is having the customer getting his work done locally. Again, machine work and precision is something that you have to pay for. So when average joe is searching for machine shops and is shopping by price, what happens when machine shop messes up and average joe does not have the ability to check the final work? Guess who is at fault? We know who is really to blame but uninformed consumer blames the place that sold them the components/recipe because the machine shop said "we did precise work, must've been component selection".

I have personally seen **** work from a machine shop that has been in business for years. It seems when I said .0015" they thought .004" was within the realm of tolerance..........or maybe I just needed to communicate better with the machine shop.

I can tell you this for a fact. Dave (Cutlass Freak) can do a valve job with stones that will come out with less runout then an aluminum head counterpart out there on the market. I personally hate stones, they take too damn long. But, they do better then the aftermarket offerings.