Mike77

I am just about finished my 77 CS restoration. I have 5 quarts of 5/30 engine oil. the motor I have was rebuilt 5 years ago and has about 500 miles on it. It has been sitting while I completed my restore. Everything is now ready to go. I was thinking about using the 5/30 for 50 miles of driving then do a oil change to the correct oil.
Good idea, bad idea ? I am thinking it should be OK, But I defer to the great knowledge we have on this board.


Mike

MDchanic

Why do you want to use such thin oil?

It should be okay, but it's almost definitely got no ZDDP at that new-car viscosity, and a good 10w30 or 10w40 should be cheap.
Lucas also has a 10w30 with appropriate ZDDP levels for sale at Jegs - 5qt for about $30, including shipping.

- Eric

Mike77

I never thought about the ZDDP additive for my year. Is it for valve wear?. My year was born a lead free fuel car. It might have been the first year. Not sure if that relative.
I have always ran 10W/30. I have a bunch of 5W/30 new I use on my 95 blazer. Thought about using it just cause I have it. I was thinking of driving the car for 100 miles then change oil to 10W/30. Just flush out the grime from 5 years of sitting.
Intresttingly enough I was reading the CSM all about maintenance and lo and behold it says 5W/30 all seasons Canada. Now Vancouver aint that cold so 10/30 might be OK
Mike

MDchanic

I'm sure 5w30 wouldn't hurt it, but it's thinner than what is usually used.

The ZDDP is to protect the cam-lifter interface, which sees a lot of very high contact pressures along with lateral forces at the surface. It became essentially unnecessary with the common use of roller lifter cams in the nineties / early 2000s, and since the zinc can damage catalytic converters, it's been significantly reduced.

If you use the 5w30, I would recommend adding a ZDDP additive, just to be sure, although it is a lot less critical after break-in than during break-in.

- Eric

Allan R

What was used to break in the engine for the first 500 miles?

Mike77

I can't really remember what I used. I don't recall using any thing with ZDDP.
Thanks for the info. I will go look for some oil with ZDDP.

kevin.horton

Also, you can order ZDDP additive from Eastwood. I bought a couple bottles of it to add when I do the oil changes on my '72.


I had a CompCam flat tappet cam installed in the 350, and ZDDP is required to reduce cam wear.

Bens71442

On a flat tappet cam engine: I can't think of anything more important that having Zinc there to protect that critical scuffing area of the engine.

Zinc is what the oil companies (removed) that was already in the oils at the time the engines were built back in the day.

STP makes an additive that has zinc to add to whatever oil your using, and thats ok, but I have found Brad Penn oils- have the especially wide range of viscosity index's that are perfect for the older engines.

They Have it in 10 W-40 ( I don't know of another zinc fortified oil in this viscosity) (5W-30) is way way to thin for any older motor.... and a lot of other oils that have ZDDP in them are either way to thick 20W-50 and the like which are used for raceing applications..... but no way would I run that thick of a oil in a Cutlass that's in an environment, that can get cold outside.....20 W-50 is molasses period, and just can't get into the tight spaces quick enough at engine startup especially if the temps are below 50 degrees or colder......that viscosity gives me the creeps just thinking about it.

10 W-40 is a perfect oil and I wish Brad Penn would make it in a 5-W40 for our cars as that would truly be the most protection.

The High Levels of ZDDP in Brad Penn Oil (which I believe gives it the "green color" ) is ideal for flat tappet lifter engines and the 10 W-40 viscosity perfect for any temp start ups and the 40 weight ideal for hotter running engines due to (higher compression) ratios 9.5 to 1 or higher

Most speed shops have it now- but its difficult to get ahold of the 10 W40 this time a year because every one uses it now around where I live but it truly is the perfcet oil out there, because of the 10 W-40 availability and the high level of Zinc it contains. Its a Pennsylvania crude (high paraffin content oil) giving it the maximum cold weather and hot temperature change or excellent "viscosity range" for a classic car cruiser and...... in the event you wanna race it whether that's a impromptu (sp?) street race or drag strip weekend excursion when you get the urge- you can't go wrong with the 40 range because your protection is right there to maintain excellent oil pressure values when the oil does reach its viscosity index hot.

It has that excellent protection at cold start and at the high end of the heat range and you don't have to add any more additives containing Zinc cause it already has the high levels our engines need. 10W40 Brad Penn unless another oil comes out that has this viscosity index and levels of zinc I'll stick with this for the now and far future.

BradPenn_zpsa8c0cadb.jpg

Mike77

Now you guy have me wondering if I cause any undue wear on the cam during those first 500 miles. Anything I could do the check it out.

Nilsson

Chances are you are ok, don't complicate this. Go online @ Jegs as MD suggested and purchase a 5qt jug of Lucas Classic Car and Hot Rod conventional oil. It is available in 10w 40 & 10w 30. It won't break the bank and has all the zinc required.

jaunty75

You can get all the ZDDP you need in a $3 container of STP Oil Treatment.

When I change the oil on my old cars, I just get whatever name brand (Valvoline, Pennzoil, Quaker State, whatever) in the correct viscosity (10W30 or 10W40) is on sale at the local parts store (maybe $20 for a 5-quart container, and they'll often have a sale where I'll get the oil filter thrown in for free), and put in a container of STP as well. No muss, no fuss, and no need to mail order anything.

MDchanic

A brief search shows that STP refuses to disclose the ZDDP levels in their additives as a "trade secret." I found a number of posts of the text of e-mails from the same STP representative, "Patti Copper," all similarly worded, but dated differently, and all of which gave the same response.

The only reference to an analysis of STP is here, but the link to the analysis itself is, unfortunately, dead.
The analysis states a zinc content of 1,959ppm.
If I recall, our cars are supposed to need somewhere around 1,200 to 1,400ppm (I may not recall correctly), so 1,959ppm added to 5.5 quarts would add only 356ppm to your oil overall, which may not be enough to get you over the hump.

Also, according to statements I read (which are not corroborated), STP has a very high viscosity, and will increase your overall viscosity a bit, which may not be what you need.

I'd be reluctant to use any product where the manufacturer refuses to disclose the content of a key ingredient.

- Eric

1970cs

We need a sticky on this zinc debate.
This will be part of my next purchase, I have used the STP on my last oil change, looks like I need to go this route which I and others have referenced before.

Also Valvoline VR1 racing oil has been mentioned many times.

http://speedtalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=31517
$15-17 per 5 qt jug@ Wallymart.

Pat

oldcutlass

I'll just post this here again which is an independent test that a guy did from another site. It's got a lot of oils that were tested and it lists the zddp levels. He also tested a few additives. What he found was that zddp levels alone do not represent how an oil performs.


http://540ratblog.wordpress.com/

1970-W30

Got 5000 miles on my new 403 rebuild with Quaker State "Defy" oil after break-in with Joe Gibb oil........No problems so far, I run 5-30 Nov to April, 10-30 during the summer, great oil pressure.

Lonestar

Disclaimer: Not an engineer nor trained professional!

Guys I'm new here and definitely don't have a degree in lubrication properties but I want to share a personal experience FWIW and to give some food for thought. I have 50 years of racing experience, primarily high rpm drag engines. I have never had an engine failure until 2011 when I lost one engine in each of my three race cars over 2 weekends... 2 of them at the same race with the same number of passes. These bullets were fresh with less than 20 runs on them. Basic info: 565" BBC's, N/A, no adders, single carb, cam lift over 1 inch, max rpm range 8200-8400, making 2hp per cubic inch.

Short story it was an oil problem, specifically a change in the formulation that MOBIL 1 didn't release to the public. I had used the same product for 10 years with EXCELLENT results! Through an extensive network, much like the fine C.O. here, we were able to verify the change, when it took place and the fact that many top level NHRA Pro teams had already changed oils from those they had used for years after experiencing failures on the dyno.

What followed was much research and discussions with racers much smarter than I and BRAD PENN was the product chosen for the new builds. Since the switch neither I, nor my engine builder (who builds 100's of high hp engines each season) has had any type of failure and we have observed superb wear characteristics.

Bottom line is I won't ever gamble even a few bucks on the lubrication for any of my engines. While the Olds is nothing like the race pieces I don't want to wonder if or when it's gonna fail. I'm not saying Penn is the only answer, only to do your due diligence and make sure the product you purchase meets all of your needs including any special requirements for your climate.

Hopefully this post will help someone. If you disagree with me that's fine, just please don't tell me I'm an idiot.... I already know that.

Below is a link that Hemming's did back in '12 on classic car oils.

http://blog.hemmings.com/index.php/2...older-engines/


A couple of final thoughts: The Brad Penn refinery is the old Kendall refinery and Penn-Grade 1 is essentially the modern version of the old Kendall GT-1. The Brad-Penn refinery only processes crude from PA, WV, OH, and NY. I believe it's the only refinery left in the U.S. that processes nothing but domestically produced crude.

Mike77

Great stuff guy's. As usual you have all educated me way beyond what I thought I would receive. Read all the link's. So I'm off to the auto store and see what they have on the shelf.
Thanks for the info
Mike

MDchanic

Also, in terms of ZDDP additives, I was looking around for information on the Lucas break-in additive ("Lucas TB-Zinc-Plus Break-in Oil Additive"), as I know some use it after break-in, and I found this thread, in which the poster quotes a Lucas rep as refusing to disclose the exact ZDDP content of their additive, but stating that adding a bottle to 5 quarts of regular oil will get you a ZDDP level of 5,200ppm (0.52%).
I looked, but could find no references to ZDDP content in any of Lucas's own literature.

A poster on that thread does the math correctly and shows that if the information in the statement is correct, then you need only 1.25oz (2.5tbsp) of break-in additive to get your average 800ppm oil up to the recommended 1,100-1,200ppm, so using the Lucas additive (at about $16 for a pint, or $1 an ounce, or $1.50.$1.75 per oil change) with your favorite regular oil would appear to be a cost effective choice.

I have not contacted any of these companies myself with any of these questions, but if any of our "retired guys" were looking for something to do, that might make a nice project.

- Eric

bmlvu97

Another thing that I have seen done (and recommended by someone in the oil industry who specializes in Mopar restoration and racing) is to use a diesel engine oil (CJ-4 10W-40, 15W-40) as another option. Still has the zinc that you are looking for, and should work without any problem for your vehicle.

MDchanic

No it doesn't. The zinc levels were reduced about three years ago because of the new range of "clean diesel" engines, many of which use catalytic converters.

- Eric