Experimental Parts from Olds Engineering
May 9th, 2013, 03:36 PM
#1
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Experimental Parts from Olds Engineering
Do you have any experimental parts from Olds Engineering? Want to know more about them? Then post their part numbers here (and tell me what they are: head, intake, etc.) and I'll do a little research. Everybody loves pictures, too (hint, hint).
The deal is that I have a copy of the log books cataloging the drawings for every experimental part coming out of Olds Engineering in the mid- to late- 60s through early-70s. Don't ask me how I got them, and don't ask me for a copy. I don't want to get anyone in trouble.
Experimental parts typically have a 5-digit part number, often preceded by an "E-". Sometimes there will be a second letter in the prefix, most likely EA- through EE- where that second letter, believe it or not, refers to the drawing size, because the drawings were filed in drawers specific to their size. I've also seen a prefix of ER- (Experimental Research?), and I've also seen them without any prefix.
The information I'll be able to give you about your experimental part is extremely limited:
Date (not sure if it's the date the drawing number was reserved or the date the drawing was released).
Name (not sure if its the draftsman or engineer).
Description (one line about what the part was, its application, or what made it different).
While Olds made plenty of really wild experimental parts, the simple fact is that most of the experimental parts were for much more boring purposes, so don't get your hopes up that your part was some super-secret weapon for the dragstrip.
The deal is that I have a copy of the log books cataloging the drawings for every experimental part coming out of Olds Engineering in the mid- to late- 60s through early-70s. Don't ask me how I got them, and don't ask me for a copy. I don't want to get anyone in trouble.
Experimental parts typically have a 5-digit part number, often preceded by an "E-". Sometimes there will be a second letter in the prefix, most likely EA- through EE- where that second letter, believe it or not, refers to the drawing size, because the drawings were filed in drawers specific to their size. I've also seen a prefix of ER- (Experimental Research?), and I've also seen them without any prefix.
The information I'll be able to give you about your experimental part is extremely limited:
Date (not sure if it's the date the drawing number was reserved or the date the drawing was released).
Name (not sure if its the draftsman or engineer).
Description (one line about what the part was, its application, or what made it different).
While Olds made plenty of really wild experimental parts, the simple fact is that most of the experimental parts were for much more boring purposes, so don't get your hopes up that your part was some super-secret weapon for the dragstrip.
Last edited by BlackGold; May 10th, 2013 at 03:39 PM.
May 9th, 2013, 04:34 PM
#2
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You got my attention.
I have heard of that list.
While do not HAVE any of these parts, but one, here's my list:
EA18743
EE14905
EE19876
EE19987
EE21156
EE24350
ER13112
ER13909
ER15336
ER20184
ER20975
This is from the PN database and the photos stash, I looked up all EE1..., EE2..., ER1... and ER2... instances. And I found one item in photos that was NOT in my PN database so I added that.
Any word on Intake PN 395479 = '67 tricarb?
I have heard of that list.
While do not HAVE any of these parts, but one, here's my list:
EA18743
EE14905
EE19876
EE19987
EE21156
EE24350
ER13112
ER13909
ER15336
ER20184
ER20975
This is from the PN database and the photos stash, I looked up all EE1..., EE2..., ER1... and ER2... instances. And I found one item in photos that was NOT in my PN database so I added that.
Any word on Intake PN 395479 = '67 tricarb?
May 10th, 2013, 03:48 PM
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Chris, it will be a lot easier for me to find the listings for those parts if you can tell me what each of them are (head, intake, piston, bracket, etc). The log books are broken into sections for different types of parts. I can find the numbers without knowing what kind of part it is, but it's a lot more work.
Regarding the 395479 intake, or any other part with a Production GM part number, I assume that every part Olds Engineering ever designed was originally assigned an E-xxxxxx number, and that if it went into production, it was then released with a 6- or 7-digit GM part number. I see notes to that effect in the log books. But such notes are the exception, not the rule. I'll see if I can find reference to 395479.
Regarding the 395479 intake, or any other part with a Production GM part number, I assume that every part Olds Engineering ever designed was originally assigned an E-xxxxxx number, and that if it went into production, it was then released with a 6- or 7-digit GM part number. I see notes to that effect in the log books. But such notes are the exception, not the rule. I'll see if I can find reference to 395479.
May 10th, 2013, 04:20 PM
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How could anyone get in trouble?
If it was experimental, there was no patent# issued, and I think they have to be renewed, or they expire.
Don't think they did that, as it cost money.
Unless someone's still with GM??
If it was experimental, there was no patent# issued, and I think they have to be renewed, or they expire.
Don't think they did that, as it cost money.
Unless someone's still with GM??
May 10th, 2013, 04:35 PM
#6
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Posts: 7,286
OK, here's most of the oddity stuff I know about
The EE and ER things all belong to others, but I do have PHOTOS of most of these.
Let's see how we can flesh this out.
EE19876
BLOCK, engine block, Experimental AL 455
pix 9318 - LevelOne Restorations
also marked EE19276 below the larger EE19876
also marked EE18276 or EE19276"
ER20164
BLOCK, engine block, Experimental W43 W-43 Hemi 455
Splayed 4-bolt mains; pix 8181
ER20184
BLOCK, engine block, factory experimental W31 engine
"This engine produced 415 HP at 5300 RPM and 455 LBS of torque @ 3900 RPM. The block weighs 68 Lbs and the heads are 22 Lbs each for a huge weight savings.
The dyno numbers are consistent with other high performance Olds engines that are known for high torque at low rpm ranges."
ER20975
BLOCK, engine block, Experimental W43 W-43 Hemi 455
.================================================= ============
EE14905
HEAD, cylinder head, Experimental AL castings
See pix 9318
EE19987
HEAD, cylinder head, Experimental AL castings
See pix 6328, 9171
EE21156
HEAD, cylinder head, Experimental AL castings
See pix 13020; installed in car VIN 344670_2xxxx9 as of 1/2013, sold at B-J
.+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++
EA18743
MANIFOLD, Intake Manifold, 4 bbl, Aluminum,
Casting ID = [none]
QJet, 1969 400/455 CID H/O prototype? HI-RISE type
Divorced choke, Heat crossover block ports
EXPERIMENTAL CASTING ebay
EE24350 MANIFOLD, Intake Manifold, Aluminum ? Casting ID = "S", dated 6-21-71
EXPERIMENTAL CASTING, Lo-Rise, Toronado type, no EGR; Cyl. #'s and EE24350 ID plate on raised pads with nails
RS Photos 6/11/05
ER13112
MANIFOLD, Intake Manifold, Aluminum ? Casting ID = "A", dated ???
EXPERIMENTAL CASTING, CROSS-RAM, no EGR; Cyl. #'s, "A", and ER13112 ("ER" part polished away mostly) ID plate are on raised pads with nails. "Firing Order" and all other characters are "upside down"... as if designed to be read while standing at the BACK of the engine.
RS Photos 6/16/12, 2012 Homecoming
ER13909
MANIFOLD, Intake Manifold, 4 bbl, Aluminum, Casting ID = [none]
QJet, 1969 400/455 CID H/O prototype?
Divorced choke, Heat crossover block ports
EXPERIMENTAL CASTING
Maybe ER15396 or ER-15396 or ER-15336
ER15336
MANIFOLD, Intake Manifold, Fuel Injection, Aluminum, Casting ID = [none]
EXPERIMENTAL CASTING
.-----------------------------------------------------
406115 "F"
MANIFOLD, Intake Manifold, AL. 405115 4 bbl.
1970 442 W30 ""OLDSMOBILE W455"" [Early]
Experimental / Prototype unit. Unusual: NO DASH in "W455"
Data such as PN and Cylinder #'s are raised pads as if secured to mold with nails
Crudely machined holes between carb gasket surface and runners... plugged with AL Hex head pipe plugs.
"F" after the 6-digit on RH side of carb
Note that some other versions of the 406115 casting number are known:
1- Early with longer wording "OLDSMOBILE W-455" cast in
2- Late, with shorter "OLDS W-455" cast in
3- One Sample w/ only "OLDSMOBILE" but space under that looks like other text was ground off
395479 "H"
MANIFOLD, Intake Manifold, 3x2 bbl, Iron, Casting ID = "H"
Tricarb, 1967 Prototype 400 CID L69 & W30
EXPERIMENTAL CASTING - Data such as PN and Cylinder #'s are raised pads as if secured to mold with nails
["H" designator was later used for '68-'70 production 2-bbl]
Therefore this "H" would have been the '67 Tri-Carb unit
The EE and ER things all belong to others, but I do have PHOTOS of most of these.
Let's see how we can flesh this out.
EE19876
BLOCK, engine block, Experimental AL 455
pix 9318 - LevelOne Restorations
also marked EE19276 below the larger EE19876
also marked EE18276 or EE19276"
ER20164
BLOCK, engine block, Experimental W43 W-43 Hemi 455
Splayed 4-bolt mains; pix 8181
ER20184
BLOCK, engine block, factory experimental W31 engine
"This engine produced 415 HP at 5300 RPM and 455 LBS of torque @ 3900 RPM. The block weighs 68 Lbs and the heads are 22 Lbs each for a huge weight savings.
The dyno numbers are consistent with other high performance Olds engines that are known for high torque at low rpm ranges."
ER20975
BLOCK, engine block, Experimental W43 W-43 Hemi 455
.================================================= ============
EE14905
HEAD, cylinder head, Experimental AL castings
See pix 9318
EE19987
HEAD, cylinder head, Experimental AL castings
See pix 6328, 9171
EE21156
HEAD, cylinder head, Experimental AL castings
See pix 13020; installed in car VIN 344670_2xxxx9 as of 1/2013, sold at B-J
.+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++
EA18743
MANIFOLD, Intake Manifold, 4 bbl, Aluminum,
Casting ID = [none]
QJet, 1969 400/455 CID H/O prototype? HI-RISE type
Divorced choke, Heat crossover block ports
EXPERIMENTAL CASTING ebay
EE24350 MANIFOLD, Intake Manifold, Aluminum ? Casting ID = "S", dated 6-21-71
EXPERIMENTAL CASTING, Lo-Rise, Toronado type, no EGR; Cyl. #'s and EE24350 ID plate on raised pads with nails
RS Photos 6/11/05
ER13112
MANIFOLD, Intake Manifold, Aluminum ? Casting ID = "A", dated ???
EXPERIMENTAL CASTING, CROSS-RAM, no EGR; Cyl. #'s, "A", and ER13112 ("ER" part polished away mostly) ID plate are on raised pads with nails. "Firing Order" and all other characters are "upside down"... as if designed to be read while standing at the BACK of the engine.
RS Photos 6/16/12, 2012 Homecoming
ER13909
MANIFOLD, Intake Manifold, 4 bbl, Aluminum, Casting ID = [none]
QJet, 1969 400/455 CID H/O prototype?
Divorced choke, Heat crossover block ports
EXPERIMENTAL CASTING
Maybe ER15396 or ER-15396 or ER-15336
ER15336
MANIFOLD, Intake Manifold, Fuel Injection, Aluminum, Casting ID = [none]
EXPERIMENTAL CASTING
.-----------------------------------------------------
406115 "F"
MANIFOLD, Intake Manifold, AL. 405115 4 bbl.
1970 442 W30 ""OLDSMOBILE W455"" [Early]
Experimental / Prototype unit. Unusual: NO DASH in "W455"
Data such as PN and Cylinder #'s are raised pads as if secured to mold with nails
Crudely machined holes between carb gasket surface and runners... plugged with AL Hex head pipe plugs.
"F" after the 6-digit on RH side of carb
Note that some other versions of the 406115 casting number are known:
1- Early with longer wording "OLDSMOBILE W-455" cast in
2- Late, with shorter "OLDS W-455" cast in
3- One Sample w/ only "OLDSMOBILE" but space under that looks like other text was ground off
395479 "H"
MANIFOLD, Intake Manifold, 3x2 bbl, Iron, Casting ID = "H"
Tricarb, 1967 Prototype 400 CID L69 & W30
EXPERIMENTAL CASTING - Data such as PN and Cylinder #'s are raised pads as if secured to mold with nails
["H" designator was later used for '68-'70 production 2-bbl]
Therefore this "H" would have been the '67 Tri-Carb unit
Last edited by Octania; May 11th, 2013 at 07:51 AM.
May 20th, 2013, 04:28 PM
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OK, The research was fun, but typing all of this up is a little tedius, so I'll just do a little at a time. Today, blocks.
I'm simply going to list what's in the logbook. My comments are in [Italics].
[This is an interesting one, as one number references another:]
EE-19876...... Block, Cyl...... 12-9-68...... White...... 455 Alum.
EE-19276...... Block, Clyinder...... 9-23-68...... J. Gray...... OW43 O.S.A. ER-18987.
[Note: O.S.A means Otherwise Same As.]
ER-18987...... Block, Cyl...... 7-23-68...... White...... Alum - 4 Valve.
EE-18276...... Cap, Crankshaft Brg. #1...... 3-12-68...... J.M. Palmites [?]...... ER-17373 Shown on EE-18009.
EE-18277...... Cap, Crankshaft Brg. #2...... 3-12-68...... J.M. Palmites [?]...... ER-17373 Shown on EE-18009.
EE-18278...... Cap, Crankshaft Brg. #3...... 3-12-68...... J.M. Palmites [?]...... ER-17373 Shown on EE-18009.
EE-18279...... Cap, Crankshaft Brg. #4...... 3-12-68...... J.M. Palmites [?]...... ER-17373 Shown on EE-18009.
EE-18280...... Cap, Crankshaft Brg. #5...... 3-12-68...... J.M. Palmites [?]...... ER-17373 Shown on EE-18009.
[Note: Palmites may not be spelled correctly, as he signed instead of printed.]
EE-18009...... Cap, Crankshaft Bearing...... 2-5-68...... J.M. Palmites [?]...... L.O. ER-17373.
[Note: L.O. refers to a LayOut drawing.]
ER-17373...... L.O. - Valve Gear to Operate 2 Int. & 2 Exh Valves per Cyl...... 9-29-67...... Gill...... 4.125 Bore - 10.625 Deck Height.
[I think you've got a typo here, or they put the wrong number on this block, because the logbook entry doesn't match:]
EC-20164...... Pipe - Vent 35NA9...... 1-20-69...... Huxtable...... 1970 E
[Note: 35NA9 is the California gas-tank venting system.]
[Note: E refers to E-body, that is, Toronado.]
ER-20184...... Block - Cylinder...... 1-23-69...... Gill...... 362 - OW43
[Note: 362 might be the 3-digit code assigned to the OW-43 engine. For example, a 1970 455 for 442 was code 659.]
ER-20975...... Block - Cylinder...... 6-27-69...... J.M. Palmites [?]...... W 43-2 Hi Cam
I'm simply going to list what's in the logbook. My comments are in [Italics].
EE-19876...... Block, Cyl...... 12-9-68...... White...... 455 Alum.
EE-19276...... Block, Clyinder...... 9-23-68...... J. Gray...... OW43 O.S.A. ER-18987.
[Note: O.S.A means Otherwise Same As.]
ER-18987...... Block, Cyl...... 7-23-68...... White...... Alum - 4 Valve.
EE-18276...... Cap, Crankshaft Brg. #1...... 3-12-68...... J.M. Palmites [?]...... ER-17373 Shown on EE-18009.
EE-18277...... Cap, Crankshaft Brg. #2...... 3-12-68...... J.M. Palmites [?]...... ER-17373 Shown on EE-18009.
EE-18278...... Cap, Crankshaft Brg. #3...... 3-12-68...... J.M. Palmites [?]...... ER-17373 Shown on EE-18009.
EE-18279...... Cap, Crankshaft Brg. #4...... 3-12-68...... J.M. Palmites [?]...... ER-17373 Shown on EE-18009.
EE-18280...... Cap, Crankshaft Brg. #5...... 3-12-68...... J.M. Palmites [?]...... ER-17373 Shown on EE-18009.
[Note: Palmites may not be spelled correctly, as he signed instead of printed.]
EE-18009...... Cap, Crankshaft Bearing...... 2-5-68...... J.M. Palmites [?]...... L.O. ER-17373.
[Note: L.O. refers to a LayOut drawing.]
ER-17373...... L.O. - Valve Gear to Operate 2 Int. & 2 Exh Valves per Cyl...... 9-29-67...... Gill...... 4.125 Bore - 10.625 Deck Height.
EC-20164...... Pipe - Vent 35NA9...... 1-20-69...... Huxtable...... 1970 E
[Note: 35NA9 is the California gas-tank venting system.]
[Note: E refers to E-body, that is, Toronado.]
ER20184
BLOCK, engine block, factory experimental W31 engine
"This engine produced 415 HP at 5300 RPM and 455 LBS of torque @ 3900 RPM. The block weighs 68 Lbs and the heads are 22 Lbs each for a huge weight savings.
The dyno numbers are consistent with other high performance Olds engines that are known for high torque at low rpm ranges."
BLOCK, engine block, factory experimental W31 engine
"This engine produced 415 HP at 5300 RPM and 455 LBS of torque @ 3900 RPM. The block weighs 68 Lbs and the heads are 22 Lbs each for a huge weight savings.
The dyno numbers are consistent with other high performance Olds engines that are known for high torque at low rpm ranges."
[Note: 362 might be the 3-digit code assigned to the OW-43 engine. For example, a 1970 455 for 442 was code 659.]
ER-20975...... Block - Cylinder...... 6-27-69...... J.M. Palmites [?]...... W 43-2 Hi Cam
Last edited by BlackGold; May 20th, 2013 at 04:38 PM.
May 21st, 2013, 03:33 PM
#10
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Today's topic: Cylinder Heads.
Again, I'll simply list what's in the logbook. My comments are in [Italics].
EE14905...... Head - Cylinder...... 3-22-66...... Kelly...... 1966 F-85 Alum Engine - Pressed-in Guides & Seat Inserts
EE-19987...... Head - Cylinder...... 12-20-68...... Kelly...... XP-899 1969 Alum 455 - Styling Car
EE-19986...... Head Assem - Cyl...... 12-20-68...... Kelly...... XP-899 1969 Alum 455 - Styling Car, Seat inserts tailored for 657 valves, Hand
Grind throats & ports.
[Note: 657 is the engine code for all non-442 455s.]
[Does anyone know anything about this Styling car? Have you ever heard of XP-899?]
EE-21156...... Head Cyl...... 8-18-69...... Gray...... 350 Alum 455 Ports
Again, I'll simply list what's in the logbook. My comments are in [Italics].
EE14905...... Head - Cylinder...... 3-22-66...... Kelly...... 1966 F-85 Alum Engine - Pressed-in Guides & Seat Inserts
EE-19986...... Head Assem - Cyl...... 12-20-68...... Kelly...... XP-899 1969 Alum 455 - Styling Car, Seat inserts tailored for 657 valves, Hand
Grind throats & ports.
[Note: 657 is the engine code for all non-442 455s.]
[Does anyone know anything about this Styling car? Have you ever heard of XP-899?]
EE-21156...... Head Cyl...... 8-18-69...... Gray...... 350 Alum 455 Ports
Last edited by BlackGold; May 21st, 2013 at 03:36 PM.
May 21st, 2013, 03:58 PM
#11
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It must be Two-for-Tuesday!
Heres info on Octania's Intake Manifolds.
I'll list what's in the logbook. My comments are in [Italics].
EA-18743...... Manifold - Intake...... 5-30-68...... Aaron...... Same As 402337 Except Material - Aluminum
EE-24350...... Manifold - Intake...... 8-11-71...... J. Gray...... 197X Toro Button Valve EGR
ER-13112...... Manifold - Intake...... 5-5-65...... Gill...... 442 - 1966 - 2 4MV Carbs
ER-13909...... Manifold - Intake...... 10-25-65...... Aaron...... 4 Webber Carb
[Note that the 4 Webbers description doesn't correlate with Chris' Q-Jet description, and 1965 is too early to be working on a '69 H/O prototype.]
ED-15396...... Req. Dwg. - Carb Choke 6M...... 6-27-66...... DeVinney...... '68 657 2 BBL Roch. Design Mech.
[Note: "6M" refers to the carb section of the logbook. ED-15396 is for a carb choke, not intake manifold. But it's possible that the subject intake manifold was to use the choke set-up described by this drawing.]
ER-15336...... Manifold - Intake...... 6-6-66...... Aaron...... 4MV Carb & Heat Shut-off (Aluminum)
[Note: "4MV" is a Quadrajet, so I don't know why Chris describes this intake as for fuel injection. I do see several references in the logbook to intake manifolds modified to monitor the air fuel mixture, so I can imagine that some manifolds had their runners drilled for probes. This might give the appearance of bosses for fuel injection.]
_________________________________________
I'll post some more interesting logbook listings for intake manifolds later -- probably tomorrow.
Heres info on Octania's Intake Manifolds.
I'll list what's in the logbook. My comments are in [Italics].
ER13112
MANIFOLD, Intake Manifold, Aluminum ? Casting ID = "A", dated ???
EXPERIMENTAL CASTING, CROSS-RAM, no EGR; Cyl. #'s, "A", and ER13112 ("ER" part polished away mostly) ID plate are on raised pads with nails. "Firing Order" and all other characters are "upside down"... as if designed to be read while standing at the BACK of the engine.
RS Photos 6/16/12, 2012 Homecoming
MANIFOLD, Intake Manifold, Aluminum ? Casting ID = "A", dated ???
EXPERIMENTAL CASTING, CROSS-RAM, no EGR; Cyl. #'s, "A", and ER13112 ("ER" part polished away mostly) ID plate are on raised pads with nails. "Firing Order" and all other characters are "upside down"... as if designed to be read while standing at the BACK of the engine.
RS Photos 6/16/12, 2012 Homecoming
[Note that the 4 Webbers description doesn't correlate with Chris' Q-Jet description, and 1965 is too early to be working on a '69 H/O prototype.]
ED-15396...... Req. Dwg. - Carb Choke 6M...... 6-27-66...... DeVinney...... '68 657 2 BBL Roch. Design Mech.
[Note: "6M" refers to the carb section of the logbook. ED-15396 is for a carb choke, not intake manifold. But it's possible that the subject intake manifold was to use the choke set-up described by this drawing.]
[Note: "4MV" is a Quadrajet, so I don't know why Chris describes this intake as for fuel injection. I do see several references in the logbook to intake manifolds modified to monitor the air fuel mixture, so I can imagine that some manifolds had their runners drilled for probes. This might give the appearance of bosses for fuel injection.]
_________________________________________
I'll post some more interesting logbook listings for intake manifolds later -- probably tomorrow.
May 22nd, 2013, 02:51 PM
#14
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Location: West Michigan
Posts: 1,587
It would not surprise me at all if every engineering drawing and every production drawing that Olds ever made still exists -- if not on paper then on microfiche.
Even if we had access, keep in mind that most experimental parts were not the ultimate in performance. First, many experiments had nothing to do with performance. Second, many parts were failures -- either not performing well or outright breaking. For example, there's a reference in the logbooks for an intake manifold which is the same as a previous one but with two ribs added to prevent cracking. So if you were to cast that previous manifold today, you might get lucky and find that it adds 50 horsepower, right up until the point where it cracks open destroys your engine.
Even if we had access, keep in mind that most experimental parts were not the ultimate in performance. First, many experiments had nothing to do with performance. Second, many parts were failures -- either not performing well or outright breaking. For example, there's a reference in the logbooks for an intake manifold which is the same as a previous one but with two ribs added to prevent cracking. So if you were to cast that previous manifold today, you might get lucky and find that it adds 50 horsepower, right up until the point where it cracks open destroys your engine.
May 22nd, 2013, 03:50 PM
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OK, it's time for the final installment regarding Octania's discussion on Intake Manifolds.
Here's the logbook listings I found regarding the 1970 W-30 and W-31 intakes:
ED-20079...... Manifold Intake...... 2-8-69...... Gray...... Alum. Version of 404521 for W-30
[Note: This drawing was assigned to Gray, but the handwriting belongs to Aaron.]
[404521 is the cast iron intake for 1970 442s. ED-20079 probably represents the initial creation of the aluminum version for the '70 W-30.]
ED-21550...... Manifold - Intake...... 11-10-69...... Aaron...... W-31 [sic, should be W-30] 455 4BBL (Aluminum) Rework 406115
ED-21551...... Manifold - Intake...... 11-10-69...... Aaron...... W-30 [sic, should be W-31] 350 4BBL (Aluminum) Rework 406114
EA-21552...... Cover Heat Crossover Plate...... 11-10-69...... Aaron...... W30 - W31 Manifold
EA-21553...... Gasket Heat Crossover Plate...... 11-10-69...... Aaron...... W30 - W31 Manifold
EA-21554...... Plate Heat Crossover Plate...... 11-10-69...... Aaron...... W30 - W31 Manifold
[These listings show that, while the 1970 model year had barely even started, they were already looking at changes to the aluminum intake design. These drawings were all in sequence and on the same day. Maybe this was nothing more than to create a version with crossover blocked to sneak out the back door to racing teams?]
I didn't find any mention of casting 395479, but here are some logbook entries for tri-carb intakes:
ER-12346...... Manifold - Intake...... 12-10-64...... Schuchard...... 1966 (442) 3-2 BBL.
[This was probably the initial creation of the tri-carb intake for 1966, which became casting number 393238.]
ER-13770...... Manifold - Intake...... 9-13-65...... DeVinney...... 393238 (3-2BBL) Choke Stove Cobbled For '67 Choke Box.
EE-14235...... Man - Int. (Sh 1 of 2) Machined...... 12-3-65...... Colby...... 1967 3-2BBL O.S.A. 393238
[Note: "O.S.A." means Otherwise Same As.]
[These two entries appear to be the modification of the 1966 tri-carb intake for 1967, which may have been destined to become Octania's 395479 casting, if GM hadn't decided that Corvette was the only car allowed to have three deuces in 1967.]
Of iinterest is how frequently the word "cobbled" appears in the logbooks. Good engineering always involves a lot of cobblling, as far as I'm concerned.
406115 "F"
MANIFOLD, Intake Manifold, AL. 405115 4 bbl.
1970 442 W30 ""OLDSMOBILE W455"" [Early]
Experimental / Prototype unit. Unusual: NO DASH in "W455"
Data such as PN and Cylinder #'s are raised pads as if secured to mold with nails
Crudely machined holes between carb gasket surface and runners... plugged with AL Hex head pipe plugs.
"F" after the 6-digit on RH side of carb
Note that some other versions of the 406115 casting number are known:
1- Early with longer wording "OLDSMOBILE W-455" cast in
2- Late, with shorter "OLDS W-455" cast in
3- One Sample w/ only "OLDSMOBILE" but space under that looks like other text was ground off
MANIFOLD, Intake Manifold, AL. 405115 4 bbl.
1970 442 W30 ""OLDSMOBILE W455"" [Early]
Experimental / Prototype unit. Unusual: NO DASH in "W455"
Data such as PN and Cylinder #'s are raised pads as if secured to mold with nails
Crudely machined holes between carb gasket surface and runners... plugged with AL Hex head pipe plugs.
"F" after the 6-digit on RH side of carb
Note that some other versions of the 406115 casting number are known:
1- Early with longer wording "OLDSMOBILE W-455" cast in
2- Late, with shorter "OLDS W-455" cast in
3- One Sample w/ only "OLDSMOBILE" but space under that looks like other text was ground off
ED-20079...... Manifold Intake...... 2-8-69...... Gray...... Alum. Version of 404521 for W-30
[Note: This drawing was assigned to Gray, but the handwriting belongs to Aaron.]
[404521 is the cast iron intake for 1970 442s. ED-20079 probably represents the initial creation of the aluminum version for the '70 W-30.]
ED-21550...... Manifold - Intake...... 11-10-69...... Aaron...... W-31 [sic, should be W-30] 455 4BBL (Aluminum) Rework 406115
ED-21551...... Manifold - Intake...... 11-10-69...... Aaron...... W-30 [sic, should be W-31] 350 4BBL (Aluminum) Rework 406114
EA-21552...... Cover Heat Crossover Plate...... 11-10-69...... Aaron...... W30 - W31 Manifold
EA-21553...... Gasket Heat Crossover Plate...... 11-10-69...... Aaron...... W30 - W31 Manifold
EA-21554...... Plate Heat Crossover Plate...... 11-10-69...... Aaron...... W30 - W31 Manifold
[These listings show that, while the 1970 model year had barely even started, they were already looking at changes to the aluminum intake design. These drawings were all in sequence and on the same day. Maybe this was nothing more than to create a version with crossover blocked to sneak out the back door to racing teams?]
395479 "H"
MANIFOLD, Intake Manifold, 3x2 bbl, Iron, Casting ID = "H"
Tricarb, 1967 Prototype 400 CID L69 & W30
EXPERIMENTAL CASTING - Data such as PN and Cylinder #'s are raised pads as if secured to mold with nails
["H" designator was later used for '68-'70 production 2-bbl]
Therefore this "H" would have been the '67 Tri-Carb unit
MANIFOLD, Intake Manifold, 3x2 bbl, Iron, Casting ID = "H"
Tricarb, 1967 Prototype 400 CID L69 & W30
EXPERIMENTAL CASTING - Data such as PN and Cylinder #'s are raised pads as if secured to mold with nails
["H" designator was later used for '68-'70 production 2-bbl]
Therefore this "H" would have been the '67 Tri-Carb unit
ER-12346...... Manifold - Intake...... 12-10-64...... Schuchard...... 1966 (442) 3-2 BBL.
[This was probably the initial creation of the tri-carb intake for 1966, which became casting number 393238.]
ER-13770...... Manifold - Intake...... 9-13-65...... DeVinney...... 393238 (3-2BBL) Choke Stove Cobbled For '67 Choke Box.
EE-14235...... Man - Int. (Sh 1 of 2) Machined...... 12-3-65...... Colby...... 1967 3-2BBL O.S.A. 393238
[Note: "O.S.A." means Otherwise Same As.]
[These two entries appear to be the modification of the 1966 tri-carb intake for 1967, which may have been destined to become Octania's 395479 casting, if GM hadn't decided that Corvette was the only car allowed to have three deuces in 1967.]
Of iinterest is how frequently the word "cobbled" appears in the logbooks. Good engineering always involves a lot of cobblling, as far as I'm concerned.
Last edited by BlackGold; May 22nd, 2013 at 03:55 PM.
May 22nd, 2013, 07:20 PM
#18
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Jim Waibel used to have an experimental engine sent to him by Oldsmobile when he was racing for them, it had 2 spark plugs per cylinder, 16 wires I saw the engine but never saw the distributor. Have you heard of this engine?
May 28th, 2013, 02:28 PM
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Also, do you know for a fact that it was a "modern" engine, that is, from the 330/350/400/425/455 family? Multiple spark plugs per cylinder makes me think it might have been a fuel (nitro) engine. And the previous generation Olds engine (1950s) was real popular for that.
Last edited by BlackGold; May 28th, 2013 at 02:30 PM.
February 1st, 2014, 08:50 PM
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Hate to make a zombie thread but thought you all may like this, I was at the Scottsdale, AZ Cars and Coffee event this AM and saw this beautiful '70 442 pull up. After I walked closer I noticed the motor, it has an experimental Aluminum ER 18987 Block, EE-21156 Heads and (??)intake!
February 2nd, 2014, 05:51 AM
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I'm pretty sure that car sold at Barrett-Jackson a year or two ago. I seriously doubt there are two red W-30 convertibles with an aluminum engine. It had been offered for sale before that auction.
February 2nd, 2014, 08:03 AM
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66-3X2 442 had some part in putting that car together. It was discussed here:
https://classicoldsmobile.com/forums...big-block.html
The person that originally put the car together (Craig Couris) is actively commenting on the OCA page on Facebook now.
https://classicoldsmobile.com/forums...big-block.html
The person that originally put the car together (Craig Couris) is actively commenting on the OCA page on Facebook now.
February 3rd, 2014, 01:34 PM
#27
Do you have any experimental parts from Olds Engineering? Want to know more about them? Then post their part numbers here (and tell me what they are: head, intake, etc.) and I'll do a little research. Everybody loves pictures, too (hint, hint).
The deal is that I have a copy of the log books cataloging the drawings for every experimental part coming out of Olds Engineering in the mid- to late- 60s through early-70s. Don't ask me how I got them, and don't ask me for a copy. I don't want to get anyone in trouble.
The deal is that I have a copy of the log books cataloging the drawings for every experimental part coming out of Olds Engineering in the mid- to late- 60s through early-70s. Don't ask me how I got them, and don't ask me for a copy. I don't want to get anyone in trouble.
February 3rd, 2014, 02:58 PM
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That's an interesting combination. If you look at my research notes above, that block is a 455, but the heads were intended for a 350, but incorporate ports sized for a 455. This combination probably made the piston selection interesting for whoever built this engine.
February 6th, 2014, 06:30 AM
#29
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This is from the PN database and the photos stash, I looked up all EE1..., EE2..., ER1... and ER2... instances. And I found one item in photos that was NOT in my PN database so I added that.
How do I find the PN data base.My 74 Olds Omega crank was drill for a pilot bearing but I couldn't find a Number for it in my book.I found other numbers for it but they were to big.maybe a 1/10 or so.
railguy
How do I find the PN data base.My 74 Olds Omega crank was drill for a pilot bearing but I couldn't find a Number for it in my book.I found other numbers for it but they were to big.maybe a 1/10 or so.
railguy
March 17th, 2015, 04:40 PM
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I was doing a little more research in the Engineering logbooks this weekend for someone else and stumbled across something I thought interesting:
ED-13171.....Head - Cylinder.....5-14-65.....Kelly......For G. Burrell's 1965 Company Car (475 ci 10.25:1)
Gil Burrell was an engineer instrumental in the development of the Rocket V-8 in the late '40s and by 1969 was assigned to be in charge of "Future Engines" such as all the exotic overhead cam and turbocharged engines we've seen in pictures and articles.
So here we are in 1965, when the 425 was the largest engine Olds offered, and one of the top engineers is driving a brand new Olds with 475 ci engine and special cylinder heads ......... SWEET!
ED-13171.....Head - Cylinder.....5-14-65.....Kelly......For G. Burrell's 1965 Company Car (475 ci 10.25:1)
Gil Burrell was an engineer instrumental in the development of the Rocket V-8 in the late '40s and by 1969 was assigned to be in charge of "Future Engines" such as all the exotic overhead cam and turbocharged engines we've seen in pictures and articles.
So here we are in 1965, when the 425 was the largest engine Olds offered, and one of the top engineers is driving a brand new Olds with 475 ci engine and special cylinder heads ......... SWEET!
March 17th, 2015, 05:27 PM
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March 18th, 2015, 04:12 PM
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At the last BOP show Bob Anderson brought a 70 442 W30 and it had an aluminum factory block and the EE aluminum factory experimental heads motor was said to be one of 5 built. I could only dream! 140 thousand for the car if I had it I would pay it!!
March 18th, 2015, 04:33 PM
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March 18th, 2015, 05:15 PM
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If that's ER-15336 (and not ER-15996), then that intake was discussed above up in post #11 in this thread. If those are small bosses on the runners right near the heads, then that confirms Octania's notes about this intake being for fuel injection.
So why would it also have a Q-jet on it? Well, you still need a throttle to meter the air, and just because there's a carb doesn't mean you have to plumb fuel to the carb ..... I don't know why I didn't figure that out earlier in post #11.
So why would it also have a Q-jet on it? Well, you still need a throttle to meter the air, and just because there's a carb doesn't mean you have to plumb fuel to the carb ..... I don't know why I didn't figure that out earlier in post #11.
March 19th, 2015, 01:07 PM
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Boy, that manifold sure looks the ones I saw on the W43 motor that was first to go in to the 73 Toro and then the A-body 455s W30. The round openings at the side of the carb mounting base indicates it is for the W43 series. That is were the pipe from each of the exhaust manifolds bolted to the intake/crossover for emissions stds. This system eliminated the use of an EGR valve system in the W43 series. The pipes "acted" like an EGR system by recycling the exhaust gases and provide heat to the carb base during cold start ups. Also, it should be noted that there were three styles of those manifolds built for production, low profile cast iron (for Toro models because of air cleaner to hood limited clearances), mid-rise cast iron for A-body 455s. and high rise dual plane alumn. for W30. Plus an 800 cfm Q-jet was to be used starting with the 1973 model. All a mute point, as Chevy killed that deal. What a shame!
