had a couple questions about judging at olds nationals. if a car is presented as a w-30 and its a clone or tribute are points deducted if its wearing the correct parts? how do the point deductions work? if you are aware of my car in the build thread 1970 442 pacecar. i have w-30 fenderwells and intake how many points off is this? and why? would these parts be ok meaning no point deductions if i bolted my f heads on making it a correct clone w-30? how about a place i can read up on the rules/regulations? i have been to many shows in the past with some of my other cars i have had, hot rods muscle cars {non stock} but this will be our first nats points meet and would like to show well!
charlie,,,

 

You can read the rules at this website.
http://oldsclub.org/ You can also contact the head judge Ed Konsmo at
ekonsmo@msn.com He's a nice guy and I'm sure he'll answer your questions.

 

Not sure if you can go into modifed class, but if you can that is the way to go, if you have lots of changes. Check with the head judge.Alao there is no set rules for point deductions, it is up to the guys judging your car, tho they have guide lines. Never judged in a nat, but lots of local Olds meets. The main thing, that is usally told to the judges, is don't hammer anyone for small items, but what ever you deduct for one car be consisnt, and do the same for all the car you are judging in you class.

 

Just a guess but I think you would be better off entering your car in the modified division if it is judged as it should. And I'm sure the judges will know a clone from a borne W-30 and anything added or changed from original should be subject to point deductions.

Think of the guy who has a real W-30 and gets out pointed by something that didn't even start life out as the car that the class he entered his car in. In point type shows it's all about originality and correctness, most of the time the Plain Jane but completely correct car will out point something with all the bling but put together with nice looking mistakes. Just my experince.....Tedd

 

The judging relates to condition and consistency of parts vs. apparent model. Authenticity is not being judged nor certified, just as paint color may not match the cowl tag--that is OK so long as it is a stock Olds color for that year.

 

I specifically asked Ed Konsmo the clone question when I was a judge at Sturbridge. He did not answer. My question specifically asked about a 1972 "W-30" that did not have an "X" code in the VIN.

In the case of Charlie's 1970 Pace Car, the pace cars did not have red inner fenders, so this would be a deduction. How much is a good question, since I have yet to see a good standardized deduction list.

 

That is one of the biggest misconceptions out there. *Condition* is by far the most scrutinized and important thing when it comes to judging.
Shouldn't be (as far as I'm concerned) but it is. Just look at a judging sheet.
There is one category, "Authenticity" for each section. If you take away the maximum points for Authenticity and ace the rest, you'll still get a 2nd place. So drive up in a perfect Chevy and you'll clear 800 points.
There is absolutely *nothing* for originality. There is an "Unrestored Class" that is treated like a second class citizen.
So original paint with 2 chips is worth less than new perfect paint.
Why is it this way? Because OCA has never attempted to establish standards for the cars for judging. So anything in the area of originality, authenticity, and correctness remain a grey area and subject to guess, opinion, and speculation. I don't see any judges going around judging cars armed with any reference material. So what happens is they end up concentrating on what they can see: condition.
And yes, I have suggested establishing standards to the head judge, and never even received a response. Which in my book, *is* a response.

My advice it to look at a judging sheet. It is pretty much self explanatory as to where the points come from.

 

I take it Kurt that the effort to develop "fact sheets" for judging has gone nowhere. Too bad.

Except that there was a lot of judgement used by the team I was on for deducting points. The judging sheet didn't have enough granularity for the items we were looking at.

 

They have a curved dash guy judging 70 W-30 cars,WTF does he know about correctness? This is the thing that chaps my @$$ about OCA judging. The rules are there are no rules. Sounds stupid but that's the essence of it. Kurt is right,it's all eye appeal,not correctness.

 

I missed Best of class one time because of a little dirt on my clutch pedal. It was just enough to kick my W-41 out. I understand people enjoying having them judged and trying to win but for some reason it was never something i was interested in. At the same time, I have to admit that it was nice to win best of show at a local small show last year.

What qualifies as unrestored? Our Jetfire had the engine, trans, and turbo rebuilt but other than that it is unrestored. Looking at the classes, I am not sure where the Jetfire belongs. It can't win in what ever class it is in but still not sure where to put it.

 

[QUOTE=joe_padavano

In the case of Charlie's 1970 Pace Car, the pace cars did not have red inner fenders, so this would be a deduction. How much is a good question, since I have yet to see a good standardized deduction list.[/QUOTE]

joe, i was wondering if you or anyone else can tell me why the W-30 option was not available for the Y-74 442 pacecar? excluding the number 1 and number 2 track cars.

 

Sums it up. There isnt any type of guideline or protocol for judging. Had mine done twice, Dearborn and Seven Springs, and both were polar opposites of one another. Stuff that was fine, and correct in Dearborn, was gigged in PA.

Overheard one judge ask a 66 owner if his car came with a rear sway bar.

Id be willing to help with fact sheets for 65, but the OCA isnt a new club. Its 2013 and nothing has been done so far. And it looks like the head judge isnt in any hurry to change anything.

 

By the way, the correct website is : www.oldsmobileclub.org

 

Any suggestions for a source of information on the judging sheets?

Having some problems with accessing OCA site due to security certificates. Anyone else have this problem?

Thanks, Peter

 

judging sheet for stock junior class.
https://www.oldsmobileclub.org/wp-co...ior-062812.pdf

You think A body is bad to judge, try 15a (1989-2004 All models not listed elsewhere) I have done this one several times!
You have to admit that not too many of the same model and year in this class, so this one justifies the generic application of OCA rules.
In 2008 I received guff from Pat Yancey for judging in my own class, when we got to my car I withdrew my judging hat and let my group judge on their own! Even my own group had to fabricate points to deduct. I even heard one of them say after looking my car over "we have to find something wrong with it" deduction: water ring in the cup holder, rusty exhuast bracket and dust in the sunroof bay!
Again, as somebody said why have a guy judging that does not have a clue on what he is looking at
Pat

 

I cannot imagine what it is like, and take my hat off to anyone who volunteers to be a judge.
Are there any formal instructions given to judges?
Are there any guidelines other than those implied by the judging sheet?
Is there any regular review of the judging process?
If not then how would one go about proposing such things?
This is such a complicated subject.

Peter

 

I tell what I know and have experienced. There is a judges meeting Friday morning again like mentioned questions are asked and loosely addressed.
It is really up to the group of judges on what to deduct as far as points. Again the a car is judged against the sheet, not for correctness!

There is a lead judge in each group with several years of judging in OCA events and rookies should consult if any questions arise. Also any major dust ups should be addressed by the event judge and OCA head judge.

Any suggestions should be brought to Ed Konsmo for consideration.

Pat

 

Just drive them. A lot more fun and no point deductions. After all, they were meant to be out on the road. I guarantee I had more fun driving my '68 from Northern Ohio down and through the Smoky Mts of Tennessee with the wife and dog than anyone ever had at a car show.

 

I like to drive my car, but I am also looking forward to putting it in the show this July. I have never done that, and while I am not expecting to win or place, it will be interesting to learn first hand about all the details that make our cars unique. I may be in the running for the longest drive award!
That being said the discussion above leads me to understand that all is not as objective as I had assumed. This will make it even more interesting
The reason I wish it was totally objective, if for example I could know that not having a particular firewall stamp will cost be 2 points, is that I would be able to allocate my "show off resources" more efficiently.
Everyone has different expectations. I understand the guy who works hard to get that extra point, but I also understand the more casual approach as well.
Peter

 

You can drive a car and still keep it in show condition. The guy next to me in Dearborn drove over from Wisconsin, the long way thru the U.P. And a lot of guys have show cars and cars they drive.

 

So you will obviously have to ship your car from Bermuda. What's involved with that, besides, obviously, locating a boat that's going your way? Have you shipped the car to the States before? What's the cost?

 

Peter, you do not compete directley with each car. You are judged aganist the judging sheet. Everyone starts out with 1000 points, and they deduct from there.They give out first, second, third place awards, and one best of class. So say you have10 cars in your class, they all can be first place, if they score enought points, and then the highes point car would be best of class, if it scores the points needed to be best of class. I have never seen a car at a Nat meet, that was so bad, that it did not get at least a third place finish.

 

Hurrah - ribbons for everyone!

I do not keep the car in Bermuda. The transport department would never allow me to have something so large, and it would be crazy on our narrow roads anyway. Plus our speed limit is 35K, about 22mph; we drive 45K normally.
The salt spray would eat it up in a heartbeat - we have been having gale force winds for a couple of weeks now. My DD, a Suzuki, has a crust of salt on it every morning.

 

So you can only visit your car once in a while? How often to get to play with it/do stuff to it/drive it?

 

In the winter I go up a couple of times for a week; no driving just do stuff to it.
In the summer I get a few weeks to drive it - going from Newport to Springfield for the Nationals meet this year.
The up side is I have time to do alot of research. I also had the idea of bringing parts home with me so I can work on them while here.
I dream of when I can retire and spend more time with the car, like you guys.
Cheers, Peter

 

maybe we should get a little roll call on who is going to the nats? my wife sure would love a 2nd or third place award!

 

Ah, children of Lake Wobegon.

"Well, that's the news from Lake Wobegon, where all the women are strong, all the men are good looking, and all the children are above average."