85_SS

Hello all,

I was wondering if there is any way to narrow down the production on the older A-bodies by options? The common Rallye production numbers below show a post car Cutlass S Rallye as 160 total made.

F-85 Club coupe 1,020
Cutlass Sport coupe 160
Cutlass S Holiday coupe 2,367
Total Production 3,547

This blurb below states ~20 made with a 4-speed:

http://www.hemmings.com/users/168587/ride/2905.html

Is there anyway to confirm anything like this for A-bodies, or is the guy taking a guess at it? I know you cannot narrow down options on G-bodies.

Reason I ask, is my fathers car is a Rallye 350 built on the Cutlass S post car body so it is a fairly uncommon car. Add to that it is a bench seat 4-speed (and Canadian) model, it would be interesting to know how many are out there. Something odd about the car in that link is the lack of chrome on the posts - I understood this to be standard equipment on the S model, and that only the F85 could be had with painted posts.

droldsmorland

Whats the first 4 of the vin? 3277 is an F85 Club Coupe. 3677 is a Cutlass Sport coupe...no S under the cutlass script. 3687 is the Holiday with the S under the cutlass. The 3677 are the rarest at 160. Im trying to dig out my info on the trans break downs.

stan 65 cutlass

if it is a canadian sold car, gm canada has records and for a fee will send you what info they have

droldsmorland

Correction to above. A 70 Rallye 350 should have the following vin #
336870M=Holiday Coupe, 332770M=F85 Club Coupe & 33677=Sport Coupes.
Production #...1020, F85 C.Coupes, 160 F85 Sport Coupes & 2367 Holiday Coupes.
All must have M for Lansing in vin. All had rear spoiler & OAI hood. Build dates from 01A to 05D or maybe early June. Last 6 of the Vin ranges are 239000-327000~. No W31s! At least none documented. 12 of the 160 S.Coupes were reported as 4 speeds. How many were 3 speeds???
I know I have further break downs of Auto and Sticks(3 & 4 Speeds) but Ill be dammed if I can dig that info out. There used to be a great site called Rallye350 dot com. But I cant find it?

sicky olds

https://classicoldsmobile.com/forums...-350-info.html

This was something i used to read about the rallye 350s when i looked into buying mine.

85_SS

Thanks for the feedback guys!

I got the GM Canada documentation years ago and unfortunately they only broke it down as a Cutlass by body type IIRC, was very disappointed...

It is indeed a Sport Coupe, cowl tag reads as follows:

ST70 33677LAN368623 BDY

TR Z940 __ __ PNT

O2C B90


Is there any way to confirm that only twelve 4-speed 3677 Rallye's were built? I'm curious where the numbers came from. Any way to dig further (ie. bench seat and Canadian)? With numbers that low, it makes me wonder if it's possible it's a "one of one". Not that it means much, it's just really neat/cool to have something so unique.

Is this the Rallye site you're thinking of?
www.rallye350.tripod.com

...not much info there and hasn't changed in years.

droldsmorland

Is this the Rallye site you're thinking of?
www.rallye350.tripod.com

No this is the link Ive been looking for. Its in Yahoo groupes....1970RALLYE350Group THE RALLYE 350 LIST.

Let me know if the link doesnt work?

http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/1970RALLYE350Group/?v=1&t=directory&ch=web&pub=groups&sec=dir&slk=26

85_SS

Link worked fine - Thanks!

85_SS

Does anyone know what the 'Z' refers to in the trim code?

"TR Z940"

I know the 940 is for a black bench, but I'm curious what the Z may refer to...


EDIT: disregard - seems the Z is still a bit of a mystery from poking around

GEARMAN69

Just saw this with the aledged range of VIN numbers for all the Rallyes and funny thing is the POS one I had to part out that had a 01A body tag date has a VIN that pre dates the list. 237814 Now I wonder how close that car was to being the first Rallye 350 ?

droldsmorland

Solid question? How accurate are the ranges I posted? Who knows. I think its was a running list of known cars and the ranges of the known cars that are registered with the Rallye 350 group site. That would mean they just hadn't found a car with one before that published range. BUT the 350 Rallye option was a mid year car announced on or about Feb 18th, 1970 for the Chicago Auto Show. So what sense does 01A make? Apparently they didnt hit the show rooms till April. I dont think the bodies were built a month and half early ahead of the Feb 18th announcement, but I suppose it could be plausible. Dont know what the 9 week UAW strike did to impact build dates? But you never know and Im no expert. Yours could have been something special? Prototype? Did you have proof it was a real 350? Could it have been a clone? Did it have _ _ for the color? That could just mean a special color order Lansing car from first week in Jan. I've personally never seen one built before 02B.

Diego

I've never seen a breakdown of trannys for the Rallye, but 12 4-speeds built doesn't sound right at all.

Diego

Sure about that?

Rallyes were only available on the F-85 and Cutlass S. 3677 is neither a F-85 nor a "base" Cutlass.

GEARMAN69

Both the parts car and the keeper one are 100 percent legit, one is 01A other 01C and both were - - paint and all mandatory options present and original paint on the 01A car. Its all in my thread. Sure the body predates the press release but so does the special paint code. They were building them before they announced or sold them apparently.

GEARMAN69

This is tag from 237814 Rallye

85_SS

droldsmorland was referring to the 33677 Sport Coupes (of which there was only 160 total built). I can't comment on the legitimacy of there being only 12 4-speeds though as I don't know where that number originated from.


It's really too bad you can't get official detailed records like you can for other divisions - there always seems to be a ton of confusion/assumptions/conflicting info on the facts surrounding Oldsmobiles (Rallye's being one of the worst examples). Much of the info I've seen in magazine articles is wrong at times, but unfortunately iit is taken as fact since it was "printed".

Diego

Even for the Cutlass S Sports Coupe, I bet there were more than 12.

BTW, notice it's "Sports" with an S at the end - learned that a year or two ago.

Stefano

So who is the keeper of the data for the break down of 4 /3 speed manual to auto Rallye 350s etc?

jensenracing77

I do not believe you can brake down the Rallye 350 production numbers by transmission. If I remember correct, Someone did an estimate that could be considered a rough idea. This is going by a fractured memory.... I think the Cutlass was broke down by 4 speed and automatic but that included the Rallye 350. At one time I seen where someone found the percentage of Cutlass with a 4 speed and then took that percentage and figured that into the Rallye 350 numbers.

Diego

....which would make no sense.

jensenracing77

I don't know the numbers but if 10% of all Cutlass (witch includes Rallye 350) were 4 speed then you could assume that roughly 10% of Rallye 350 were 4 speed. If 10% was the number that would be roughly 357 Rallye 350 were 4 speed. Not going to be exact but likely in the ball park of whatever that percentage is.

Diego

But why could you assume? You are dealing with two "models" with different target markets.

That's why it makes no sense to estimate by applying a percentage of an option for a family car to a performance car.

Additionally, it's statistically incorrect because you have a percentage based on a sample (total Cutlass production) and applying it to a completely different sample from within (Rallye 350).

It's just wrong all around.

jensenracing77

The Rallye may have been targeted to the performance crowd but it was nothing more than a Cutlass with OAI hood and better suspension. I have parted many of them and most of them were bench seat column shift. I followed these cars for 24 years and column shift far outnumbered floor shift auto or 4 speed. If performance people mostly bought them i would have though more would have been at least floor shift. Even the rally pac was very rare in a Rallye 350. There is no way to know the exact numbers of 4 speed Rallye 350 but it sure was not common.

Diego

That you think the Rallye was simply a Cutlass with a W25 hood and HD suspension is irrelevant to the conversation.

The fact is that the W45 package gave the F85/Cutlass a new identity, and it was targeted to a different segment than your generic Cutlass S. The consumers in those respective segments had completely different psychographics (and were likely in different demographics), so it is unfair to assume that both of those examples would share the same rate of installation of 4-speeds.

Imagine this: Combine all the A-bodies and let's say, for the sake of example, 4-speed production was 5% of the bunch. But we want to estimate the number of 4-4-2s with 4-speed - do you think it would be fair to assume they would total 5% of total 4-4-2 production?

That's what you're suggesting.

jensenracing77

But the 442 was it's own model and that makes the numbers known. The W-45 was not its own model. I am not saying what the guy did was correct but it is the closest you are going to get to a guess. Also, most Rallye 350s were not customer ordered. They were built to be a lower priced car than the W-31 and W-30 and dealerships had them as inventory. That is likely why most were column shift without many options.

Diego

You're still not getting it.

Forget about what's known. Forget what's a formal model or not.

The point is what this guy did is further away than an educated guess can achieve. He used a faulty statistical method plus fails to factor weights like the purpose of the car, which would jack up the popularity of the 4-speed compared to generic models.

Besides, shouldn't we strive to discuss good, hard numbers rather than promote misinformation?

droldsmorland

The autos definitely out numbered the sticks. I too would like to find solid info on the number of sticks. Also I think my data on the vin range starting at ~239000 (up to 327000ish) needs up dating as one of you have reported an earlier car, 234202, and one of you have reported a later car 368623. I haven't seen the documentation on either vehicle. Until so Im not updating to avoid that problem and taint the data.
Secondly has anyone done a correlation of the 3 character build date on the Fisher tag compared to the last 6 of the vin?
I think the only way to get semi accurate info would be to get all 350 owners to post their data and documentation (or lack there of) in one spot, (here). Then we'd at least have numbers of what still exists. How about dual gates included.

Stefano

Thanks guys, point is then that there are no hard, stead fast numbers or stats on Rallye manual production......only varying guesstimates, which may or may not be correct.

I would agree with Diego that if all ordering was left up to the buying public that there would tend to be a higher percentage of manual cars for a "Performance" pKg car than for a "family" car. The percentage of 442 manuals is greater than the percentage of Cutlass manuals.

However, it is my understanding that many of the Rallyes were pre-ordered by the Zone office and the distributed to the dealer body and not customer orders, so this could skew the numbers to Zone office preference.

GEARMAN69

I doubt we will ever have any hard data on this topic. But as far a regular Cutlass / F85 with stick goes, they must be a hell of a lot rarer than the "performance" model cars. I have always like these cars and looked at them my whole life and never saw a plain cutlass stick car in person other than a 70 supreme that had fire damage in a wrecking yard and recall being shocked to see it had been a floor shift manual. Fast forward to the last few years since I got my Rallye and scanning the internet I have ran across numerous stick Rallye cars and believe the percentage is much higher on Rallye cars than base type cars. 10-15 percent of Rallyes maybe ? Probably single digit percentages on regular cars ?

anthonyP

Trim cowl tag from 4-speed Rallye 350.

kdelong442

The above cowl tag and the info in the beginning of this thread do not match up?

Help?

I to am trying to decipher a cowl tag and used this site I found elsewhere on Classic Oldsmoile
http://datatagdecoder.com/tag/69-72

All must have M for Lansing in vin.

Last 6 of the Vin ranges are 239000-327000~.


The Rallye 350 I am looking at has an "L" Plant and a 372 - - - vin.
Is the one I am looking at a true Rallye based on the plant and vin range?
HELP?

1969w3155

No L plant exists. M only for Rallye. Show a pic of your cowl tag. The cowl tag does not contain a vin or vin derivative.

jharsh

kdelong442, I think you may have the Cowl Tag and the VIN confused. You are correct that the VIN must have a M for Lansing, but the COWL Tag will have LAN which is Lansing. If you can post the numbers from the Cowl Tag someone can help you out. Just keep in mind that neither the Cowl Tag or VIN will confirm a Rallye 350, but if the VIN tag does not contain a M and the COWL Tag have LAN for the plant code it is certainly not a Rallye.

kdelong442

Thank you that explains what I see. The LAN on the cowl tag is the plant. Thank you.

Cruzinbill

rocketraider

I think what a lot of you have overlooked is that the Rallye 350, like the Heavy Chevy Chevelle and Pontiac T37, had one purpose. It was an insurance fighter. VIN indicated a lower-line non-performance car and there was no indication of engine or transmission option anywhere except the POP.

Its target market of young, performance-oriented drivers were getting beat up bad by insurers on any vehicle with a performance ID in its VIN- provided the insurer would even take on such a car. A kid pumping gas or bagging groceries could usually afford the car payment, but his insurance premium was often double the car payment and insurers would use any excuse to cancel coverage or increase the rate. Even a glass breakage claim could send insurance into the stratosphere. I lived that ****.

Enter Rallye 350 and its brethren. Oddly enough Chevy and Pontiac used the insurance beater VIN to better advantage than Olds as you could get any V8 except 454 in the Heavy Chevy and Pontiac let it all hang out- RAIII and 455 HO were both available- but they still had Chevelle and Tempest VINs.

Ya reckon insurance companies had any influence on 1972 VINs including an engine code?

Maybe I'm biased but I think Oldsmobile pulled off the best appearance package.

Stefano

I understand the point you are making but the Oldsmobile POP for 1970 does not identify the power train configuration.

Diego

The T-37 was a cut-rate hardtop that was a sub-model of the Tempest series. What you mean to say is the GT-37.

The RAIII was never offered in the Pontiac. A Pontiac employee/historian made this claim for years, but it simply was not true. All these cars that have been found with 400-4 engines have the same engine code as that of the standard GTO engine that was rated at 350 horses. I think in lesser A-bodies, it was 330 hp but not sure. Strangely, this was only true for cars with sticks; cars with TH400 received the small-valve heads from the Catalina and therefore a lesser 400.

The 455 wasn't available for lesser A-bodies till 1971.

no1oldsfan

Somebody explain to me if I am mistaken. I swear years ago I read that Oldsmobile wanted to build "their" own version of a Demmer built Hurst Olds. They decided to build the Rallye 350.

It is a shame that they cheaped out on the Rallye 350. Really all a Rallye 350 is a four barrel Cutlass dressed up. I saw more than a few back in the day. They were almost always very low on options. I wish they would have offered them in more than one color. I know that they made a few 69's as test benches. Various colors. Are there any pictures at all of those cars?

rocketraider

T37= low-buck insurance beater. Tempest 2dHT and correlates to R350 and HC concept. The target market was actually Road Runner.

GT37= a T37 with some GTO trim upgrades. GT37 also available as a 2d sedan which negated the 37 part of the name.

Or so the local Pontiac dealer sales manager explained it to me when I was a car-crazy kid hanging around the place when these cars were contemporary. He's still a good friend to this day and still selling very selective used cars.