jeffreyalman

this is going to sound very strange but I have this recurring dream where I am sitting in my grandmother's 67 Cutlass. I am not allowed to have the keys after being caught driving it at 9 or so, but I distinctly remember this:
if you have no key, you could listen to the radio if you did this:
turn signal on
foot on brake
hold flasher button just prior to clicking on
radio should come on
anyone willing to try it for me and report back?
thanks

joe_padavano

I tried it, but my boss woke me up before I started dreaming.

Seriously, there is no way the stock wiring would support what your dream is telling you.

jeffreyalman

no it really happened - really used to do it! 67 Cutlass, not CS, brakes, signal on, flashers 1/2 way in - radio came on!

VikingBlue

well that explains why my TV would flicker sometimes back in the day....glad you stopped doing it.

joe_padavano

It only takes a few minutes with the wiring diagram to see that those circuits are not connected. Brakes, signals, and radio are all powered by different fuses with power wires that do not connect. The car either had some sort of diabolical short circuit or someone had doctored the wiring.

jeffreyalman

I wonder if any other 67s would do it?

Lady72nRob71

If it does work, it would be a very cool little "easter egg" to me!!
Anyone remember the Excel 97 flight simulator that would come up when a certain sequences of events were done? I thought that was rather neat...
The Atari 2600 Pacman game had a similar thing. Cycle the power just right and you could go anywhere - through the walls, monster pen and all. Of course you could still be eaten...

I just studied up on the 66 wiring, since I do not have the 67.
There is no hazard switch, but the radio and signals use the same voltage source. Key off V+ would come from brake light switch input. Depending on the exact construction and operation of the TS switch, this combo ~might~ work! One signal bulb and the radio would be powered through the flasher, probably not enough current to make if flash.
Later models have the radio and TS on different circuits.

citcapp

Lay off the late night drinking before bed time and your dreams should become more normal

jeffreyalman

either not enough or too much balance is such an art - thanks for checking Rob - I don't know how I figured it out as a 9 year old but I was gonna make that radio work come hell or high water and I did!

any 67 owners, try it!

no key, turn signal on, foot on brake, flashers 1/2 way in (yes 1st year for them) radio plays

cutlassgal

I discovered this as well in my mom's 68 Rambler!! I used to sit in there and listen to the radio all the time, lol!!

jeffreyalman

wow see I'm not crazy!! well ------

stan 65 cutlass

kentucky bourban or bc bud, maybe both lol

cutlassgal

Hey now.... I'm on your side, lol!! I remember thinking that was the coolest thing, but never understood how it worked! Can't say I cared, as long as the radio worked!

jeffreyalman

I don't know how I figured it out either, but I got busted moving the car when I was 9 or something so I got to sit in it in the garage with no key

thanks Sandy J/K

aliensatemybuick

When did Testors start putting mustard oil in their model cement to discourage sniffing, anyway?

Jamesbo

I would offer up some Jungian dream analysis but I'm afraid I would put you all to sleep.

MJAKS462

The radio was probably wired to Bat side of fuse box, so you could have just turned it on without doing any of the other stuff ! I seem to remember car radios working without the key being turned on.(could be mistaken though)Its good to have childhood memories anyhow.

stan 65 cutlass

ahhh yes testors glue, i used too loooove doing models

Lady72nRob71

Some time after I stopped building models.
I loved that stuff. The 60's marks-a-lot pens were almost as good. My mom always wondered why I liked model building, then later blowing them up with fireworks...
BTW, those pens still write, too!

And now days you have to install special latches on the cabinets just to keep your kids from touching the dishwashing soap...

joe_padavano

Not from the factory, which is why I suggested that someone had messed with the wiring.

I'd be thrilled if someone could show me on the factory wiring diagram how this was physically possible without a short or mods to the wiring. I'm familiar with sneak circuit analyses and the path just doesn't exist.

jaunty75

No, you're not. I remember this distinctly as well, and not just with a '67. I remember doing just what you said. With no key in the ignition or anything, turn the radio on. Then, hold your foot on the brake, put the turn signal on (either way), and then pull out the four-way flasher **** just until you start to feel resistance. Don't pull it out all the way or it won't work. If you do it right, the radio will come on.

I know what Joe Padavano says about the wiring diagram, but I know this happened as I used to do it once in a while when I was waiting in the car for some reason. We had a '67 Vista Cruiser when I was between the ages of 10 and 14, and it's something I most certainly would have played around with as a 14 year old who couldn't wait to get old enough to do more with a car than just play with the radio.

I think I did it even with our family's '71 Custom Cruiser, and maybe the '73 as well, and neither of these had ever had any rewiring done. (Ditto the '67 VC.) I've got a '73 CC now, and I may try this at home tonight if I remember. I'd try it in the '67 Delta, but I don't have a working radio in that right now!

66ninetyeightls

Could have been a faulty switch backfeeding power onto the accessory circuit.

jaunty75

In one isolated case, yes, but not in several cars over several years amongst several different people.

In looking back on it now, and with some of the experience I've had now in solving wiring issues in both of my current cars, I'm guessing what happened here is some sort of reverse current flow, where current is flowing, as difficult to believe as it might sound, in the reverse direction through the radio.

For the longest time, I had a problem with the taillights on my '67 Delta 88. They would go on any time the ignition was on, not just when the headlight switch was pulled out. Everybody was speculating on grounding issues or a bad headlight switch, and what ultimately was the problem was that the power lead for the underhood lamp was hooked to the transmission downshift control (for reasons I never could figure out). This is powered whenever the key is on, so power from this connection was going out through the underhood lamp power lead and getting to all of the lights on the same circuit. I only uncovered this cause of the problem when I was fiddling with the underhood lamp trying to get it to work. As soon as I disconnected it and removed it from the car to clean it up, everything started working properly.

I'm not saying that this is exactly what causes the radio to go on when you do all that other stuff with the turn signals, brakes, and such. I'm just saying that parts of the wiring in a car can interact with other parts in unexpected ways that are not immediately recognizable from a study of the wiring diagram. Wiring diagrams themselves are not always complete or completely accurate, as I have found in troubleshooting some of the wiring issues in my '73.


Think of it another way. There are two filaments in each taillight bulb, but there are FOUR ways of turning one or both of them on. Step on the brake pedal, turn on the turn signals, turn on the four-way flashers, or pull on the headlight switch. Three of these methods (step on brake pedal, turn on four-way flashers, or pull out headlight switch) do not require the key to be on. Clearly there is some interconnection amongst these circuits at this point, regardless of which individual circuit they're on.

stan 65 cutlass

step on the brake and taillite lites,turn on turn signal(same bulb)feeds power into acc circuit, turn signals only work with key on so it energizes that dead circuit, flashers on part way also a live circuit, now theres power for radio, i think im close

jeffreyalman

very cool that 3 of us have done it! I wonder how we figured out how to do all that stuff! We never had radios work without the key, power windows yes, till 65 or so. Thanks all!

jaunty75

I think you are, too!

jaunty75

Because of our mis-spent youth!

gearheads78

I think you guys got ahold of Granny's "medicine" jug before going outside to push buttons and *****.

jeffreyalman

well fine Richard but how do you explain it happening to 2 other peeps right here? Ha. I admit most of the 70s are a blur but this was 67, hadn't found the stash yet (not far later but that's another thread)

Lady72nRob71

So being an engineer, I had to go home and try this...

On my old Furd, all I could do is get the right turn signals to work without the key. No fun.

Lady on the other hand went berzerk...
Step on brakes, turn signal right, fidget with hazard switch........
Right front signal only flashed slowly.
Pushed it in a tad more, and courtesy lights, door locks, GEN light, radio display, and power antenna relay pulsed every second with the right front signal.
Keep in mind the alarm I installed controls the courtesy lights and locks (with IGN signals) and also has a retained ACC feature. The key part is that the GEN light was coming on and the antenna relay was clicking. Too much current was being pulled, causing the flasher to flash, pulsing it all. If the load is small enough (std transistor radio with no PWR antenna), the flasher would most likely not flash and the radio would most likely come on.
I should have done a video...

Anyone else care to try?

jaunty75

See? We're not completely nuts!

cutlassgal

Yeah.... what he said!!

citcapp

I think you're all nuts, but in a good way of course

Whey I was a kid most of us owned old chev's as thay were cheap to buy $40 to $100 bucks. Most never came with keys. I know for a fact the at least 48 through 52 you could use a knife or small screw driver to turn the keyway.

jaunty75

I remember my father being able to start the engine on our '64 Cutlass and then take the key out of the ignition switch with the engine running. I haven't tried this with my '67, so I don't know if this was commonly possible in the era before steering column-mounted ignition switches.

citcapp

Very common before the column mount keyway, I can do this with my 57 Olds

jaunty75

I can do it with my '09 Nissan Altima, too! In fact, there isn't even a key. Just a fob that I have to keep in my pocket. Get in, foot on brake, push button, car starts. My wife is absolutely in LOVE with this feature as it means never again fumbling around in her purse looking for the car keys. I don't know why this hasn't been standard equipment on every car made for the last 10 years.

mugzilla

This was early diagnostic ordering ...

The lights on the radio blink , you count the blinks and look up the trouble code ...

You need volume III of the service manuals ...

Run to Rund

Was your 67 named Christine? lol

Ddbord

I just tried it on my '65 and the band-saw in the basement turned on! Not the light, just the saw!

jaunty75

You couldn't have tried it because your car doesn't have the four-way flashers.

I think some of you guys aren't taking this seriously.