dallasite21

So I had cranked my car up early tuesday morning. Started right up. I let it warm up and then proceded down my alley to work. I give it a little gas and get to the end of the alley and it dies on me. Thats the last time I heard it run. It will not crank and doesnt even sound like it is close to starting. It turns over fine but sounds like its not getting any spark at all. It also sounds different when im cranking it.. the engine sounds less noisy when you try to crank it. Its also spitting gas through the top of the carburetor when I crank it. I took the carburetor off to make sure that all of the components inside were fine and they appeared ok. What would cause an engine that was running fine to die and then not start again while shooting fuel through the top of the carb? By the way the starter, fuel pump, HEI, wires and plugs have all be replaced in the last 2 months. Any help would be appreciated.

Destructor

Sounds like no spark, it would start and die or at least pop and blow some smoke if it were the carb. Even if the chain jumped it would still sound like it's trying to start.

70 cutlass s

You need to check to see if the wire going to dist. has power. If it does then it might be the electronic control module in the dist bad. Which you can take to a local parts store to have checked.

mugzilla

plastic covered timing gear let loose ...

move crank back and forth while looking for motion at the distributor for motion ....

put a plug in a plug wire and ground and look for spark first, with cap off you can see the points spark, hopefully nice and blue ...

points or hei ...

if hei the contacts for the coil go bad ...

dallasite21

I checked the power wire going to the Hei and it is getting power.

70 cutlass s

The next step is to take a plug out and put it back in the plug wire. Put close to the exhaust manifold and have someone crank it over while you are watching the plug. Just enough to see if it sparks. Make sure your NOT holding the wire. When its being cranked.

Allan R

If the engine won't crank and you're getting power, have you checked your starter or the solenoid to see if it's engaging. Does the sound you hear sound more like a "click" or does it sound like a "whirr"?

Your post is kind of confusing because you say first that it won't crank, and then you say it will turn over but not start; those are both basically the same things and contradict each other.

If your starter or solenoid is not working, you will likely hear the symptoms I've described above. The quickest fix for that is replace either the solenoid or starter, or both. They're not that expensive, and they're pretty easy to get at on your Cutlass. You will need to jack up the front end to do this though. Make sure you put jack stands under the frame when you're doing this. Do NOT trust just a jack, they can fail very easily. Anyway, that's my 2¢ worth. Hope you resolve this soon; I know how much fun these cars are to drive.

joe_padavano

Just to avoid confusion, the term "cranking" usually means the starter motor is turning the engine over. Apparently your car DOES crank (turn over) but does not start, correct?

hamm36

Timing chain.

OLD SKL 69

Based on what you are telling us, I would replace the module in the distributor.

71 Cutlass

I agree with the module in the distributor. Remember, some non-points style distributors require atleast a full twelve volts while cranking and running, yet some forget this when they change over to HEI or CD distributor units. The usual wire that some hook up to the distributor is a "resistor" type wire (used by points style distibutors) that does not give the full 12 volts while running. This kills the module in about 2-3 months, the same amount of time your new distributor has been on the car. The gas coming through the carb has nothing to do with carb trouble but rather what part of the stroke the motor is at when you stopped cranking. Also, if you turn the key over and the car does not start, but seems to almost start as you are letting off of the key--another signal that the module is fried. Hook up a volt meter to the positive side of the coil and see how many volts you are getting while cranking. If not 12, then the wrong type of wire has been hooked up to your distributor and fried the module. Distributor should be under warranty. Replace it and wire a full 12 volt source from the ignition switch wire or fuse box, if indeed the resistor wire is the culprit... I'm hoping it is, easier than timing chain.

dallasite21

You are correct... it will crank, but it wont start. Im kinda leaning away from the starter being the problem because it died while it was running. That leads me to beleive something else occured to cause it to shut off in the first place. A bad starter wouldnt cause it to shut off if it was already running would it? I am going to take the HEI out tommorow and have it tested. If the test comes back fine, I guess its time to start looking at the timing chain and components. Does that sound like a reasonable course of action.... By the way, it is making kind of a whirling sound when I crank it. It definetely sounds different than it use to.

71rocket

Good luck and post what you find out.

gearheads78

If it sound different while cranking it may very well be mechanical like a chain / spocket issue. Pull the cap off and crank it over. Does the rotor turn? If no that that is you problem. If yes then I would guess an HEI module. As mentioned above they need 12 volts if you are using the old points resitor wire you need to rerun one for 12volts. If you are ready have 12 volts then is still could be just a bad module. Aftermarket HEI modules are nortorius for being junk. Replace with a Delco module if it bad. You don't need to pull the distributor to check it. Put th cap back on and you just need to pull a wire and hold it close to a ground with insulated pliars while someone cranks on it. If it sparks its OK

dallasite21

OK... I have checked my voltage, to the HEI and im getting 12.1 Volts so that should be fine. I also bumped it over a couple of times and the distributor is moving. It sounds like you may be right on this gearheads. I also read the comment above about how using a 12v to the HEI that does not give 12 volts while the car is runnign could destroy the module in a few months. I think im ok there but that is interesting becasue I just put the HEI in a couple months ago. I have mine wired straight to the ignition slot in the fusebox though, so I think Im ok there. So now that I have narrowed this down to a potential problem with the module.. whats the easiest way to test to be sure that it is not functioning? Someone above said to pull the #1 plug and let it hang near the manifold while I carank it and watch for the spark. If there is no spark would it would be safe to assume that the module is bad? If the module is bad, how do I go about replacing it, or do I have to buy a whole new HEI?

70 cutlass s

You can do it close the manifold, engine block, frame, just a good ground. Do like gearhead 'Richard" said with pliers with insulated grips I forgot to tell you that part sorry. You'll have to hold the wire with pliers not your hands.

If it doesn't spark then it is something in the dist. Good bet its the module. You can take the module out and take it to local auto parts store and they can test it.

dallasite21

I removed the module and had it tested.. It checked out ok. I also had the coil tested which also passed. There was a problem with my cap though. The spring loaded metal pivot stud that the rotor rotates on was gone. Im not sure how that came out but I replaced it and put everything back but still no start. Its still seems like there is no spark. My gas hand is between a empty and a 1/4 tank but I dont beleive I am out of gas. Primarily due to the fact that the carb is still shooting fuel through the top. I dont know what else to do here. Is there something simple like a blown fuse for some component that could cause the car not to start? Its cranking fine and the rotor is turning. I feel like there is something electrical at play here.

70 cutlass s

Did you check to see if you had spark at the plug. That spring thing is the ballast resistor. If it was missing then that is the problem. I would have to look at the cap and rotor also. Could be something is wrong with the cap or rotor or both.

hamm36

Sounds like it jumped timing, like the Red 71 Cutlass - 350 I had in 93'.
I felt it studded a little and I got off the highway. It died at a light, and would not start, but would turn over. A police officer pushed me off the main road, and let me use his phone to call for a friend. It ended up being the timing chain. Fix: new timing chain.

dallasite21

What do you have to do if the car jumps timing... Whats the fix? By the way I will go and put it at TDC and see where my rotor is pointed to see if this is the problem.

joe_padavano

There are a couple of very easy tests that you should do before anything else. First is to look down the carb (with the engine not running) and pump the throttle, looking for gas shooting from the accelerator pump squirters. If you get a good stream, fuel is not the problem. Next, as suggested several times above, pull one plug, put it back in the wire, and ground the threaded part on the engine (AWAY from the carb). Crank the engine and look for a spark. If you get a good spark, distributor is working. Third, put a timng light on the engine and check the timing mark while cranking. If it's way off, you have a timing chain problem.

Destructor

If it jumped timing it should still act like it's trying to start but never "catch".

dallasite21

Think I have a timing problem after all.. I have done the above tests. I now have spark so the distributor is good. It wasnt working earlier today though becase of an issue with the top of the cap but its fixed now and I have spark. I put the timing mark at TDC then I took off the Distributor Cap... my rotor is pointing a 2' Oclock when it should be at 5, so I beleive that is my issue. It seems like I could simply pull the distributor and readjust it to 5 oclock but obviosly there is a reason why the timing jumped. What generally causes that to happen and is the fix as simple as resetting the distributor to 5 oclock?

hamm36

The chain jumps because the gears are warn. Some might say the chain is stretched...etc. Any point. It needs to be replaced.
I would look in to a fresh rebuild. Get it over with and enjoy.

mugzilla

It is always interesting when multiple stuff goes at the same time ...

resetting is not the solution ...

You will see the slack in the chain by moving the crank back and forth, while looking at the rotor, with a breaker bar, short extension and socket...

I have had timing chains go when bad spark has caused the engine to run erratically ...

alsip455

also make sure your starter wire isnt touching the block but sounds like it jumped time good luck

Lady72nRob71

Bummer! Sorry to hear about this. Luckily you did not get too far away from home when it died.
Relocating the disty wont help because the valves (cam) will still be out of time.
If this is the original timing chain & sprocket set, then it was time (no pun intended...)
Replacing the set will be a lengthy job, as the water pump has to come off and everything associated with pulling that. Pulling the crank pulley is fun, too.

There was recently a thread about replacing the timing gears and chain. The original gears in the 80's had plastic teeth to reduce noise and wore and broke after 100k miles, but not sure if those were used in the 70's.

firefrost gold

are you sur its just not flooded? how long since you drove it last and has the choke stuck on you? the only time I have had a cain jump or stretch is when i was doing bad stuff

dan2286

He already said the distributor is in the wrong position which indicates the chain jumped.

silverriff

Replacing the chain isn't the most difficult thing in the world, as long as you take your time, follow the steps and PUT THE BOLTS BACK WHERE THEY ARE SUPPOSED TO GO! The reason I say that is I had to replace my chain about a year ago. It was the first time I did anything that invasive on an engine, and after putting the cover and waterpump back on, I had forgotten a very important bolt that blocks off the coolant from the engine block. And after running it for about a half an hour, a chocolate milkshake looking mixture of oil and coolant started leaking out of my engine. Just pay attention to what your doing and you will be fine.

dallasite21

Thanks for all of your help... I still have not got the ting running. I am testing everything possible before I have to do anytjing with the timing, but its sounding more and more like thats the problem I have posted links to some video of how the car sounds when i try to crank it. The fact that it sounds different than it used to when you try to crank it is strange to me, but also probably points to a timing issue.... Dangit. Does the sound the car makes when it cranks sound like anything familiar to any of you?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JSgCWU5rxt4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QFx2Msix0KQ

silverriff

Wow that's a new one for me! But if I had to guess, I would say it's the timing belt/gears. It doesn't even sound like it is trying to turn over, just the starter whirring. But I would say one thing....probably shouldn't keep trying to turn it over. If the chain or plastic gears broke, you don't want to keep tring to start it and whipping any of that around inside.

70 cutlass s

The timing is way off.

dan2286

You can try a compression test to see what kind of compression you are getting. If it's extremely low, the chain could be your problem.

Wyze

You guys know your ****!!!! I'm having the same issue with my 68, now I know where to start thanks everyone!!!

joe_padavano

Yes, but using a timing light gives you the same info without even pulling the spark plugs. I'm lazy.

dan2286

Good point.

dallasite21

Thanks all for your help on this. I finally made the time to get into the engine tonight to look at the timing chain, and what I found was horrible. The chain has so much slack that it feels like I can pull it right off the gears. The Cam gear teeth that have been widened and bent out of shape. Its just terrible. I only hope this didnt do further damage to the engine. I have added pics and a link to some video I took of the chain.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8-tFH7Ohht0

dan2286

Your engine should be fine. As far as I know, these are not interference engines. I think the only damage that could happen when the chain breaks or skips is the valves hitting the piston, which shouldn't apply to your engine.

svnt442

That is the original gearset and it's missing a lot of the plastic. Swap it out for sure.