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70s/80s Us Sportcars with the best Handling/Suspension
Hi,
I also started a thread in a german forum about this (i live in germany).
Are there any US Sportcars built BEVOR the 90s with really good handling/suspension especially in curves also when driving high speeds? talking about driving 140mph or faster on german highways.
I am currently using a Mercedes Benz 560 SEC for that but as i am a huge fan of us cars and also have a 71 Cutlass supreme i was wondering if there is a us based product that can do it as good as the benz or even better?
I am talking about STOCK cars, nothing customized.
My idea was Corvette C3, C4 and Detomaso Pantera.
But as it seems the Corvette C4 is the only car out of the three who really meet the requirements.
So basically the questions:
How well do the C4 hold up against the 560 SEC?
Is it as good as the 560 SEC, is it even better?
Are there any more cars that could meet the requirements?
The Corvette is the only US built car that meets the true definition of "sports car" from that period. The Italian-built Pantera is not exactly a US-built car.
If you want to expand your definition to "sporty cars", the WS-6 Trans Am likely makes the list.
I think The C4 ZR1 corvette is a great platform. Also the 92 new LT1 powered Vette was a marked improvement for the C4.
Any of the Pony cars, Shelby Mustangs, AMX, Camaro, Firebird, Trans AM, etc with minimal mods can handle it. Dodge Viper would be another thought and if you have really deep pockets a GT40. There are a lot of other American cars one could research that could run rings around the Mercedes.
it just matters that you can drive fast and stable, especially in curves.
The car just has to lie good on the street.
if it is titled "sports car" or not i do not care as long as it fits the requirements.
but i guess the corvette c4 is the only one that fits this requirements.
it just matters that you can drive fast and stable, especially in curves.
The car just has to lie good on the street.
if it is titled "sports car" or not i do not care as long as it fits the requirements.
but i guess the corvette c4 is the only one that fits this requirements.
A sports car is a two seater. The 68-70 AMX meets that criteria, but isn't going to run comfortably at 140 on the Autobahn for any length of time, at least not in stock form. The WS6 T/A might. Keep in mind that given US highway speed limits, these cars were not geared for top speed. Also, you've picked the worst possible timeframe as far as engine performance is concerned. The mid-70s to mid-80s were the period of band-aid emissions controls and mechanical carbs with miles of vacuum hoses. The base L48 engine in the Corvette produced a pavement-ripping 185 HP.
Mercedes 560 SEC was from 85-91, whats one more year. The ZR1 1990 and the Viper was 1992. His question was about options specifically the C4 Vettes. The C4 was a sports car capable of 150 MPH and pushed .95 lateral G on corners. The skid pad tests were one of its major selling points back then.
The Viper although just out of his dates, pushed almost 1 lateral G in corners.
The biggest problem is from 1974ish to the late 80's were the American performance crap years.
Sorry I mistyped and edited my correction above, just before you posted this. The Viper went on sale in the 92 model year. The ZR1 in 90.
BTW heres the proto type 89 : http://www.superchevy.com/events/vem...-corvette-zr1/
It has not to be a sports car by definition, it just has to meet the requirements.
And if there is something from 1927 than that would also be okay but just not later built than in the 80s.
Any of the Pony cars, Shelby Mustangs, AMX, Camaro, Firebird, Trans AM, etc with minimal mods can handle it.
I drove my 71 Cutlass once with 100mph for lets say 15-30 min after that i needed a new engine. (The old one gets currently rebuild)
So it might need only "minimal" mods to get good handling, but when you also want to drive fast i guess it gets expensive.
Mine has the Olds 350 engine, so basically the 350 chevy i guess.
So there are some cars with other Engines Mopars and Fords but i dont know if they can handle the high speeds? my olds 350 can not, at least not without tuning.
But if there are really cars you can upgrade with "little mods" would sure be cool.
if you have really deep pockets a GT40.
Yeah your right the G40 would sure be one of the best options available!
So are there any more options beside the Corvette C4?
Last edited by Michael_; May 18th, 2018 at 11:01 PM.
The biggest thing you need to do if you want to drive American cars at those speeds is get the RPMS in a range that the engine likes. A good combo of an overdrive transmission and proper gearing would accomplish this.
I know this doesn't fit the sports car class, but I cannot help but wander how the limited production NASCARS would handle the autoban. ie, the Daytona, Superbird, Talladega, etc.
I worked with a guy that had a Superbird once, he claimed that at 120 it just felt like it was glued to the road and and still had more speed left.
Not exactly a production car.
Mine has the Olds 350 engine, so basically the 350 chevy i guess.
So there are some cars with other Engines Mopars and Fords but i dont know if they can handle the high speeds? my olds 350 can not, at least not without tuning.
So are there any more options beside the Corvette C4?
Olds 350, Buick 350 and Pontiac 350 are all much different than a Chebby 350. I doubt anything in stock form in the time period you stated will handle the cruise at over a hundo for any length of time. And it will take more then a "tune" to get them there.
Check out the vette and I would extend out the time frame. A buddy of mine recently picked up a 96 Vette and he loves it.
I know this doesn't fit the sports car class, but I cannot help but wander how the limited production NASCARS would handle the autoban. ie, the Daytona, Superbird, Talladega, etc.
I worked with a guy that had a Superbird once, he claimed that at 120 it just felt like it was glued to the road and and still had more speed left.
Not exactly a production car.
Chrysler built the Superbird (and the Dodge Daytona ) with only one purpose .
To win on the super high speed tracks at Talladega and Daytona .
NASCAR , however , required Chrysler to actually build 500 ? or so to qualify them as a "stock " car .
The " street " versions that Chrysler built to do this were nothing but ordinary Plymouth Roadrunners with the fancy sheetmetal that , as mentioned above , were probably incapable of 120 MPH plus sustained speeds .
The highly modified racing versions would (and did) run 200 MPH plus all day.
After they built the required number of these cars , Chrysler pushed them on to dealers who , as I remember , had a hard time selling them .
While they looked cool as he!! , a 120 MPH car with 200 MPH aerodynamics. And a high price tag ($4400 at the time) just wasn't practical for even the American performance enthusiasts to own .
Nascar required a production of 1 car per 2 dealers in the US to use them in competition. The aero package was was similar to what was in the nascar version. Most states then outlawed them due to no front bumper. Ford followed with the Talledaga and the Cyclone spoiler, production cars modified by Holman/Moody. Nascar then changed production requirements effectively stopping the makers from creating a model that was done just for the track. The 440 models, like the in the other Chryslers, was a better street machine then the Hemi.
Off course the street machines had to turn right as well as left and had different suspension.
Although rare and sought after now, the Superbird and Daytona were considered butt ugly back in the day and did not sell well. There were a few Hemi versions produced if I remember right.
Sadly I don't think there was anything leaving USA production lines in the given timeline that could match the Mercedes WITHOUT modification. Maybe the Buick Grand National was an exception?.
Italian supercars, and possibly some BMW and Jaguar models, perhaps the Vauxhall Lotus Carlton might have made the cut. I believe the Vauxhall was the worlds fastest production 4 door car in its time.
But all of the above cost considerably more than anything available at any Big Three dealerships.
Like Joe said, it was a bad time to look for anything from North America with road wrinkling power.
Sadly I don't think there was anything leaving USA production lines in the given timeline that could match the Mercedes WITHOUT modification. Maybe the Buick Grand National was an exception?.
Italian supercars, and possibly some BMW and Jaguar models, perhaps the Vauxhall Lotus Carlton might have made the cut. I believe the Vauxhall was the worlds fastest production 4 door car in its time.
But all of the above cost considerably more than anything available at any Big Three dealerships.
Like Joe said, it was a bad time to look for anything from North America with road wrinkling power.
Roger.
^^^THIS. The NASCAR Aero cars like the Superbird and Daytona were all about qualifying the body shell for racing. The production underpinnings were standard-issue and were NOT capable of cashing the check that the body shape wrote as far as top speed. All that was replaced in the race car applications. Frankly, the excessively long and heavy aero cars definitely were NOT handling cars in any sense of the word. Also keep in mind that today these cars are extremely collectable and will easily sell for mid-six figure prices.
Same goes for any US-made car from that timeframe as far as handling and high speed performance is concerned. Floaty suspensions, inadequate front end caster, "one-finger" power steering with lazy ratios, and a top speed of 120 or so, downhill with a tailwind. Again, highway speed limits were 70 MPH before the oil embargo and 55 after. There was absolutely no reason for Detroit to build cars capable of sustained 140 MPH speeds. Sure, any of these cars can be modified for the OP's intended use, but none of them will meet his requirements in stock form. Anyone suggesting otherwise is dreaming.
I talked to someone who drove multiple Superbirds he said it handles way better than normal muscle cars of the time and its also possible to drive 200km/h average speed.
I talked to someone who drove multiple Superbirds he said it handles way better than normal muscle cars of the time and its also possible to drive 200km/h average speed.
All well and good, but that doesn't meet the requirement. 230 kmh SUSTAINED cruising is one parameter, and handling and grip that will only come with a very expensive and sophisticated suspension that is a quantum leap from any American Muscle Car is the other.
Also, it may well be possible to carry on a conversation in a Mercedes 560 SEC at that speed.
But the Mercedes and anything with similar capabilities comes at a huge cost.
I don't fly a flag for Mercedes Benz cars, (ok, I'd love a 1962-1967 fintail), but they can make cars capable of outstanding performance, as long as you have enough money to afford one.
I'm afraid we have to concede the Germans victory this time.
None of the above diminishes my enthusiasm for American cars in general, and Oldsmobiles in particular.
It's worth noting that the OP probably says pre 1990 because of a law, not because of his choice, so suggesting to move up into the 90s is probably unfeasible.
I talked to someone who drove multiple Superbirds he said it handles way better than normal muscle cars of the time and its also possible to drive 200km/h average speed.
Does "someone" have a name? Any way to verify these claims? Or is this just another story with no substantiation? The Daytona was just a heavier Charger R/T. Exactly the same suspension as the R/T from the factory. You could get either a 440 Magnum or a 426 Hemi. Both great engines, neither designed for sustained high-RPM running in stock form.
I just got a Scat Pack Shaker Challenger, so I'll probably be selling my beautiful 1996 LT4 Corvette that I've had for 18 years. Great road car that is totally stable and running low rpms at 100+ mph. Ten years ago I also had a 1985 4+3 Corvette and that car was equally great as far as handling goes - it stuck like a go kart. Ran strong too with the cats removed. Those are a lot of car for not much money nowadays. Stay away from the rolling ashtrays that have been abused to death - there are many nice examples out there.
The SD455 T/As ('73/'74) with the tall 2.56 rear gears were capable of 140 MPH sustained. Aero wasn't too bad either w/ the rear spoiler handing rear end down-force and the front air dam / fender extractors helping front end down-force. These were by far the fastest T/As of the '70s (the late '70s WS6 option on T/As was merely a rear disk brake option, it won't help make the car faster, but it will help it stop).
As far as Olds goes, I personally drove my '68 for at least 30 minutes between 100 - 110 (indicated) MPH between Toronto and Windsor back in the '80s. That was the trip that it rolled over 100,000 miles. Drive-train was completely stock (350 2bbl, Jetaway, 2.78 rear) except for dual exhaust. I was one of about 4 cars making really good time that day on that stretch of road. I've since rebuilt the rear and swapped the trans, but the engine ran fine until I parked it in '97 w/ 112,000 miles. Today it has 120,000 on it, although I've replaced the timing chain on it back in '07. I'm not sure I'd trust any A-body of any generation from an aero perspective much above 120 MPH.
Last edited by JohnnyBs68S; May 21st, 2018 at 01:00 PM.
You were probably banging along at 3750 rpm or so at that speed. Highway gears will do that for you. I have an A body with 2.73 that does 2500 at 70, 3500 at 1000, and I have not had the nads to try for 4500 at 120.
Been there, done that too. But only for a mile or so. What I remember the most besides passing other cars like they were standing still was that, relative to going 120, when I slowed down to 90 it was so much quieter! Wind noise on these old cars is ferocious at 120. I don't think she had any more in her beyond 120 (indicated). I have no doubt though, that a 455 A-Body w/ tall gears could sustain more speed than the aero would be safe at.
I had a '76 T/A 455-4sp w/ a 3.24 rear. It was nowhere near as fast as the SDs (200 NET rated HP vs the SD's 290). With a '74 exhaust (cat-less) in place of the stock Y-to-a-single-cat, I redlined in 4th gear once. The speedo on that car stopped at 100, so from my tach and knowledge that it ran 1/2-way to redline at 72-73 (indicated) MPH, I estimated it hit 135, and it felt like it had more if it had another gear. Those 2nd gen F-bodies were way better handlers than any A-body.
The fasted I've ever gone is 145 (indicated) in our early-build 2000 Lincoln LS V8, it was still pulling before I backed off. I finally met my match. C&D found the 162 MPH speed limiter in a '99 T/A WS6 M6 'vert like my '98. I'm just going to take their word for that one.
I would never consider a 560SEC as a sport car. A sport car from this area is e.g. Porsche 930 (better known as 911 turbo).
And if I drive my american whatever car (preferable an Oldsmobile) I do it totally relaxed by cruising at ~70mpH on the highway.....this is -at least here- the sense of those cars.
Just my 0,02$
Been there, done that too. But only for a mile or so. What I remember the most besides passing other cars like they were standing still was that, relative to going 120, when I slowed down to 90 it was so much quieter! Wind noise on these old cars is ferocious at 120. I don't think she had any more in her beyond 120 (indicated). I have no doubt though, that a 455 A-Body w/ tall gears could sustain more speed than the aero would be safe at.
I had a '76 T/A 455-4sp w/ a 3.24 rear. It was nowhere near as fast as the SDs (200 NET rated HP vs the SD's 290). With a '74 exhaust (cat-less) in place of the stock Y-to-a-single-cat, I redlined in 4th gear once. The speedo on that car stopped at 100, so from my tach and knowledge that it ran 1/2-way to redline at 72-73 (indicated) MPH, I estimated it hit 135, and it felt like it had more if it had another gear. Those 2nd gen F-bodies were way better handlers than any A-body.
The fasted I've ever gone is 145 (indicated) in our early-build 2000 Lincoln LS V8, it was still pulling before I backed off. I finally met my match. C&D found the 162 MPH speed limiter in a '99 T/A WS6 M6 'vert like my '98. I'm just going to take their word for that one.
I verified that a 93 Z28's LT1 can indeed push that Camaro body to the 150 advertised on the speedometer. 162 was also the top end for it according to some mag, probably Car and Driver again.
May 18th, 2018, 11:42 AM
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