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After three years I'm getting ready to put the glass back in my '70 W-31. Does any one have a source for the rivets used to reattached the dash VIN plate as well as the plate on the cowl?
on a 70 yeah why would you remove em!!now on my 66 with the vin tag in the door jam.on a full repaint it's nice to paint the entire jam even under the vin tag.especially if you do a color change.
Removal of the vin with the intent to defraud is a felony. Key words are with intent to defraud. We need, as a nation, to sack up, and combat such fears of the government.
Removal of the vin with the intent to defraud is a felony. Key words are with intent to defraud. We need, as a nation, to sack up, and combat such fears of the government.
Not sure if your aware but removal of vin or possession of the rosset rivets is five year felony. Hope you have proof the shop removed your vin.
Lots of people claim to "know" this. I'd love to read that actual law. Got a citation or section number?
FYI, local truck repair places here in VA routinely replace damaged truck cabs and transfer the VIN tags using correct rosette rivets. They are not shy about talking about this. None of them have ever had any legal problems.
The VIN just uses normal pop rivets. Cowl tag uses the fancy things. The VIN rivets are (IIRC) supposed to come in from the bottom, but that's a PITA. The trim panel covers them anyway.
I removed mine to thoroughly clean, prime and paint. The dash needed high build primer to level out, but spraying that on the VIN obscured the numbers. So sue me.
A person shall not knowingly possess, buy, deliver, or offer to buy, sell, exchange, or give away any manufacturer's vehicle identification number plate, federal safety certification label, antitheft label, posident die stamps, secretary of state vehicle identification label, rosette rivet, or any facsimile thereof.
There is a bunch of stuff about doing it for the purposes of deceiving, which is really what everyone else is arguing as well
Last edited by allyolds68; Feb 27, 2018 at 08:34 AM.
"A person shall not knowingly possess, buy, deliver, or offer to buy, sell, exchange, or give away any manufacturer's vehicle identification number plate, federal safety certification label, antitheft label, posident die stamps, secretary of state vehicle identification label, rosette rivet, or any facsimile thereof."
That's a Michigan state law, not federal. As I've said many times, individual state laws are all over the map on this. In MD, it is technically illegal to alter VIN derivative stamps, so engine, trans, or frame swaps are not legal. Fortunately, that one is not enforced.
I tend to break laws that I find are silly with impunity and I do not mention the specifics to anyone. Were a restoration situation like this to come up for me, I imagine this would be one of those laws.
I tend to break laws that I find are silly with impunity and I do not mention the specifics to anyone. Were a restoration situation like this to come up for me, I imagine this would be one of those laws.
^^^THIS!
What usually amazes me about this topic is that people have no issue with replacing the engine, trans, frame, floorpan, roof, firewall, doors, quarters, fenders, hood, bumpers, etc, but the square inch of sheet metal around the VIN tag is sacred ground and life as we know it will cease if anyone tampers with it.
First of all, I think the first line of #1 has a mistake:
(1) A person who, without the intent to mislead another as to the identity of the vehicle, conceals or misrepresents...
Shouldn't it be WITH the intent to mislead...? That's the way #2 is worded:
(2) A person who, with the intent to mislead another as to the identity of a vehicle...
Second, the key thing in both of these is intent. As long as you fully disclose that the VIN plate has been reattached or whatever, it's OK to do so. As Mr. P. points out, stuff happens. A car gets hit on the driver's side on the door pillar where my '67 Delta's VIN plate is attached and the plate has to be removed to repair or replace the damage and then reattached, that's OK. No crime committed. No intent to mislead.
Lots of people claim to "know" this. I'd love to read that actual law. Got a citation or section number?
Joe,
Here is a link to the Federal Law. It is 18 USC Sec. 511. You will have to scroll down the page to find it. As you said, A State can add to this but in general it can be removed for say a repair; as long as there is no intent.
Joe,
Here is a link to the Federal Law. It is 18 USC Sec. 511. You will have to scroll down the page to find it. As you said, A State can add to this but in general it can be removed for say a repair; as long as there is no intent.
Thanks Jim. I'm familiar with 18 USC S 511. My question was about the statement that it was illegal to posses rosette rivets. Nothing in 511 talks about that.
Thanks Jim. I'm familiar with 18 USC S 511. My question was about the statement that it was illegal to posses rosette rivets. Nothing in 511 talks about that.
Got ya. I guess I better check my stash and make sure there aren't any.
What usually amazes me about this topic is that people have no issue with replacing the engine, trans, frame, floorpan, roof, firewall, doors, quarters, fenders, hood, bumpers, etc, but the square inch of sheet metal around the VIN tag is sacred ground and life as we know it will cease if anyone tampers with it.
Good, Think this way, most auction houses will pull your car if you have touched the vin, resto or not..
The Feds are walking around auctions and such and impounding vehicles that the vin has been removed then put back on..
Why give them a reason to take your vehicle and it cost you thousands to get it back..
Not one good reason to remove a vin. NONE..
After three years I'm getting ready to put the glass back in my '70 W-31. Does any one have a source for the rivets used to reattached the dash VIN plate as well as the plate on the cowl?
Gentlemen, I appreciate the input on this issue that I didn't know was an issue. This post has been a learning experience in more ways than one. The vehicle will not, in my life-time have a For Sale sign on it as I bought at age 19 and has been in the family ever since, even through it sat in my father's turkey barn for 34 of its 48 years. I'm thankful that the mice never chewed up my original documentation.
I had put good faith in a Grand Haven body shop known for its media blasting, never thinking they would pull these plates. This project has been very personal one, with no intent to deceive anyone, I'll record this info in the car's history. Hopefully it will be road worthy to take my wife and kids for a road trip by summer.
wow, that is awesome. Now to make you feel even worse. If you kept all that dirt on the car and brought it to BJ like that you'd get an extra $200k for the awesome patina and extra layers of dirt. Just kidding, that's awesome, same way I feel about my car, I'll let my kids worry about what to do with the car as I will enjoy it until the end.
Very nice car a great story. Keep in mind that not everything in this thread is accurate. I don't think you have anything to worry about with your car.
Good, Think this way, most auction houses will pull your car if you have touched the vin, resto or not..
The Feds are walking around auctions and such and impounding vehicles that the vin has been removed then put back on..
Why give them a reason to take your vehicle and it cost you thousands to get it back..
Not one good reason to remove a vin. NONE..
Has anybody here actually witnessed the Feds walking around an auction and impounding cars? I never have and I have never heard of it happening. Just saying.
That would be kind of funny. Just wear a dark suite with a plain tie and shades. Start walking around looking at VIN's and see what happens. Better yet talk pictures of the VIN's. I wonder what the reaction of Dana Mecom or Craig Jackson would be.
Has anybody here actually witnessed the Feds walking around an auction and impounding cars? I never have and I have never heard of it happening. Just saying.
It is well documented,, and if you like it is on film, on chasing classic cars..
Has anybody here actually witnessed the Feds walking around an auction and impounding cars? I never have and I have never heard of it happening. Just saying.
Really? You've apparently never had to repair a badly rusted cowl.
As for auction houses, 1) I never plan to use one and 2) there is plenty of fraud there already that doesn't involve VIN tags.
As noted above, do what you have to do and don't brag about it on the internet. I lose exactly zero sleep over this.
Yet a stripe in the wrong place or wrong model. you'll loose your mind.
Maybe it tis me but that seams a tad odd.
As for removal because of rust. There are regulations on what you must do before you remove it, and what you must do once put back.
But hay, there is a reason a totaled out high optioned car title and plate is worth big dough even when there is nothing you'll ever be able to use off the TRUE car.
So which is it? "Not one good reason" or "Removal of rust"?
Originally Posted by midnightleadfoot
Not one good reason to remove a vin. NONE..
Originally Posted by midnightleadfoot
As for removal because of rust. There are regulations on what you must do before you remove it, and what you must do once put back.
Also, can you please post a real reference to those "regulations"? Specifically, what is the process, who are the agencies to be contacted, and what is the specific law you are quoting. I've frequently cited 18USC Section 005.11. This is federal law and specifically ALLOWS removal and replacement of the VIN tag if "reasonably required for repair". I'm very interested in the regulations you are citing.
What's funny, is the fact you can cut right up around the VIN and transfer to another car and it is completely legit.
The fact that the original poster posted this thread I think shows no malice.
Theoretically, turn your 66 Cutlass into a 66 442...$300 come get it!
Just sayi'n, with this vintage there you go. Makes you think...
Don't need no stink'in title or vin.
