jaunty75

I know you can only read the first few lines unless you subscribe, but the first few lines say it all. It sounds like the UAW is pricing itself out of existence. Too bad these jobs couldn't be in the U.S.

http://www.wsj.com/articles/ford-to-...018-1454857923

TK-65

Why is the first thing out of everyone's mouth "UAW"? They are going to Mexico because the workers make 6 bucks an hour and the suppliers pay 2 bucks. Tell me how ANYONE can compete with that?

BTW the non union automakers, Toyota, Volkswagen etc are running for the border too.

jaunty75

Chill out, huh? It's a frequently-used, collective term for American automotive labor.

stellar

I heard Flint is going to start importing drinking water from Mexico.:-)

jaunty75

TK-65

Ford and GM are set to pay out record profit sharing checks next month based on record earnings. The last contract gave workers a small raise for the first time in over 8 years. Before this contract workers made less than Henry Fords 5 bucks a day based on inflation. Soo excuse me if I get pissed when you blame the UAW for sending work south.

TK-65

joe_padavano

I'm not a big union fan, but I have to agree with you here. The problem is lower standard of living and lower pay scales. Manufacturing isn't the only one doing this. In the aerospace industry, procurements that used to be a best-value selection are now being awarded under what's called LPTA - Low Price, Technically Acceptable. The problem with that is the "technically acceptable" part. Best liar wins, then the Gov't is subjected to either poor performance, massive schedule slips, or change orders that ratchet the price up as a "get well". The result is a "race to the bottom" among contractors as companies shave benefits and indirect costs to win this business. Getting the same quality at a fraction of the cost should cause one to be skeptical...

Of course, the automakers' problem is that as they move work out of country, they are still carrying the fixed costs of the legacy health programs, pension plans, and infrastructure in country.

TK-65

Pension and retiree health care were offloaded into a UAW run VEBA. New hires do not get pension and take 8 years to reach full pay

Koda

TK is correct, apparently the Guanajato area of Mexico is like Little Detroit back in the day. Everyone is there. Toyota is building a Corolla plant there, and they plan to offload the Cambridge, ON production of the Corolla line down there and retool into a RAV4 line just like the Woodstock, ON plant.

The Corolla is going down there since it is a cheap car with low profit margin, and the Cambridge area has grown up in the 25 years the TMMC plant has been there, so they are giving those guys a pricier car to build and to make money with.

The problem is, we have a current standard for plant layouts, and of the three people that built the Mississippi plant's chassis assembly line in my department, one has quit, the other is on long term assignment in Japan, and the third one is me, so I hope they don't go looking for the expert to build Mexico 2, because I surely do not want to go.

Safety is one thing, but they don't compensate you for time away from home.

coppercutlass

People complain about mexicans working here and stealing jobs becasue they get paid less then they complain when the companies run south so they can have cheap laborers but the public wants affordable goods so its one or the other ., there is alot of irony there to be honest. One way or another they get cheap labor. I worked for a union shop (body shop ) and i hated it. If i dont get a raise every year i find a new shop. I wouldnt settle and thats the sad part of unions you have to settle. When i was working for lexus which was a union gig we got no raises through our union when i was there. i got promotions when i said i was leaving and thats how i ended up staying. I had to strong arm them and make them go around the union rules or bend them.

TK-65

This has nothing to do with unions, didnt you read what Koda wrote? Toyota is not union and are doing the same thing. Same with Honda...

http://blog.caranddriver.com/honda-f...mexican-plant/

Auto-production expert Ron Harbour, quoted by Automotive News, has said that it is tough to find skilled laborers. Moreover, even transporting parts in and cars out can be a problem, as “railcars do get hijacked” and completed vehicles have had parts stripped from them.
Finding a capable workforce won’t get any easier for Honda, as BMW, Audi, and Kia are in the process of building their very own production sites in Mexico right now. As they watch Honda struggle with its new facility, they might need to prepare for similar issues once their lines start churning out product.


Having a hard time finding skilled labor and capable workforce. Maybe they are looking in the wrong place.

wr1970

Called Nafta and free world trade! Thanks to Clinton who signed into law nafta when he could have vetoed it. Back to auto's. When all the cars and other well paying manufacturing jobs are out sourced! Answer this question! What is left for future generations in this country? Who will be able to buy anything in america when wages will be at wage 3 world nations level. Copper you haven't lost a job to out sourcing your rose colored glasses are on high beam.

coppercutlass

I made my comment based on the cheap labor thing which is a reality its one or the other they find it here in the states or some other country where they can actually probably cut cost even more becasue they dont have osha or epa or whatever busting their ***** . The union thing was based on the fact after working in one im not for them. As for them going to mexico thats where they think cheap labor is. Thats on them to find the pitfalls and hopefully fix them but when it comes to money we all want it but big companies can find ways to make more and spend less ., as workers we kinda dont have an option. We loose jobs in this country due to greed. employee greed , corporate greed , its a viscious cycle. The employess want more but so do the companies.

WR1970 I cant loose my job to outsourcing so my views on work are totally different as i dont feel threatened .

wr1970

Think what you want! You have not grasped yet what globalization will do to this nation! You don't get how many millions of jobs have been lost to other nations already. Before you are done in the work force and are at retirement age. Wages for the norm maybe at a level where your type of work will not be required at all. When wages are so low in future buying a new car will be for the rich only. Go do a search on jobs lost and what the experts say is going on right now! What i say means nothing this is a meaningless thread. Why i say that is most don't even understand that wages are going down in a spiral because of the sell out factories when the law was changed by NAFTA. Free world trade my ****. When this is done. In the future we all will be driving beaters cars patched together or mopeds! Other nations will thrive we are sinking!

Koda

You're right. Lean manufacturing is rough when they go after the payroll. They were bleeding engineers so bad they had to revamp our overtime pay schedule.

I think we should've gone for another Southern US plant. I would've like northern GA or AL.

coppercutlass

wr1970 I do body work so if the rich can afford cars they can afford to fix them. Im still good. Regardless im not worried about issues i have no control over. Im worried about me because the world , or the big companies , or our govt. does not care about me . I doubt our country will go that low but then again i think alot of the issues are created by our country so those issues are out of our control regardless of what people think. Sitting here complaining about loosing jobs to mexico solves nothing because we have no say., SO until our gov sees an issue they will do something about it . So sit back and enjoy the ride lol. Its a sad reality but we are not in control not by a long shot.

1968_Post

This didn't just start with NAFTA... I lost my hometown to the exact same issues as you're discussing here. Youngstown, Ohio was one of the largest steel producers in the country, but due to the greed of the Corporations, the incessant threat of work stoppages by an overzealous union population and in the inability of the workforce to adapt and become educated, the city imploded in 1981. The union blamed US Steel, US Steel blamed the unions, and in the mean time the town shriveled and died. I had to leave to afford my kids an opportunity for a better life.

Competition and automation, combined with a total lack of planning or foresight on the part of the corporations, the workforce and the unions were to blame. Union wages went up, equipment was never updated and the jobs went to Japan. What's my point? We've learned nothing since that time. Look at Flint, Detroit, etc...

The beat goes on.

wr1970

Who gave Japan modern tech and supported the steel shift by imposing strict rules for american steel factories? I know i worked in a foundry as a furnace operator. I am not a spring chicken and have wore many hats to feed my family.

TK-65

Thing is we have. The UAW has adapted, and some say cowered in the face of globalization. Work rules are pretty much gone. No more pensions. The existing pensions and retiree health care was offloaded by the companies into a VEBA. Pay was frozen for over 8 years. Holidays given back. New hires were given a new lower wage (Tier 2) until it was eliminated last contract. Workers now take 8 years to reach full pay.

Detroit and Flint happened over 35 years ago. Now we have a lean work force who really have no say in how many hours they work or when they work. Weekends are forced and most, like me, have alternative schedules where we work 12 hour shifts, and work every other weekend.

All that and still the work gets pushed off shore in the name of more profits, when each year record profits are being made.

m371961

I never understood why unions supported the politicians that pushed the trade deals such as NAFTA, and that is still on-going. And don't forget the fact that the EPA regulations like the clean air and water acts, while beneficial to us, made all manufacturing costs here explode. Then allowing trade with countries that have none or less standards then ours is insane.

442fanatic

I have enjoyed reading this thread and everyone's opinion. On top of all the opinions I agree with played a part with, I toss in the ever increasing standard of living us Americans expect.
Kids get out of high school and a lot don't want to work. I look at our high schools and see few offer any hands on classes like industrial arts, basic electrical, some kind of shop. Granted a few perhaps do. My old school eliminated them and turned the space once used for that shop into a wrestling area.
Carpentry, electrician, plumbing, landscaping, construction of any type and such trades are in high demand. Though they aren't being as pushed as once was. Craftsman can make some decent money in those fields, require hard work, dedication, and requires pride of one's work for success. It seems that these professions have been filled by immigrants, who for the most part will work hard. I like watching those fixer upper shows, most the contractors are immigrants or hire immigrant works...

jaunty75

Is part of the problem the fact that the U.S. market just doesn't matter any more? I was amazed to read that not only does Buick sell more cars in China than it does in the U.S. (that's not the amazing part), but that it sells four times as many in China as it does here.

At least, that's what this article says. It's from two years ago, but it's still probably relevant. Buick sells 1 million cars a year, 800,000 in China and 200,000 in the U.S.

http://www.motorauthority.com/news/1...hina-as-in-u-s

The numbers for the other manufacturers are probably similar. Asia is the new growth market. The U.S. market is mature. If manufacturers see the growth markets as elsewhere, it seems they'd want to locate manufacturing in the same place.

wr1970

You understood what trade skills that schools are getting away from! But you assume that there will always be cash contractors to do the field of contracting jobs. What happens when there is no high paying jobs left because of outsource? What happens when other countries end up selling the products they make in there own boarders or to other counties flush with cash. This isn't about today this is in the future.Look how china is building city infrastructure. They are becoming a modern nation.The next 40 years looks dismal if things keep going the way they are. The kids of future generations may not have cars. Look at what it cost to buy a new car. Then cost to buy housing.The the cost of food!! Nothing is going down! Yet wages of the middle class is disappearing with jobs being lost.I will never see what happens 40 years from now because i am to old. My children kids i fear for and their kids.

1968_Post

Who gave Japan modern tech and supported the steel shift by imposing strict rules for american steel factories?

It certainly didn't come from US Steel or Republic. The mills in the Youngstown used "Jennies", a blast furnace design originating in the early 1900's. Pretty sure Japan didn't use that technology.

Germany helped Japan with their early steel manufacturing techniques.

Koda

I think one of the problems is that everyone looked micro "send your kid to college" and no one looked macro "only about 20% of the economy should be a job needing a college degree."

You can make damn good money at a craftsman trade.

citcapp

I have worked in apprenticeship since the early 70's. We used to get people standing in line to become electricians. Now days we have to recruit candidates by holding job fairs with other trades. Most schools have dropped their shop classes and only promote collage and white color professions. All of this while their is an acute shortage of skilled craftsmen. In the greater Seattle area the average wage scale of an electrician exceeds $40 and hour + benefits which can raise the total package to over $60 an hour. We are not the only trade with shortages. Plumbers, steel workers, concrete workers, sheetmetal workers. It goes on and on.

joe_padavano

Can't blame this solely on Slick *****. Here's the photo of Bush 1 at the original agreement signing:

My442

The government is run by big corporations, Wall Street banks, and special interests. The trade deals are made expressly to get higher EPS (earnings per share) and lower COGS (cost of goods sold) to maximize profits. Add in the fact that these countries have minimal to no environmental laws, no pension/heath care requirements, no OSHA, and no wage laws. This means that operating in those countries can lower wages up to 90% versus here in the USA. Lower COGS means a higher profit margin. The jobs leaving will not be back. Eventually, the jobs in lower cost countries will go to even lower cost countries. The USA was build on manufacturing, which creates wealth. Every auto factory job creates up to 7-8 jobs in the supply chain and service sectors.

TK-65

The NA market is driving these record profits. Last year automakers sold a record number of cars. People in Mexico buy around a million cars a year. The plants moving to Mexico are doing so to import back into the states, not because they see Mexico as a growth market.

Buicks sell in China because people in China love Buicks. They would sell more in NA but its deemed a grandpa car. Which their current ad campaign reinforces.

wr1970

Joe Clinton was the president and touted and still does to this day as the best thing that ever happened. He signed it in to law.Not Bush. You ask how by no veto! Workers have lost more jobs by Nafta and Free world trade by out sourcing.

wr1970

After World war 2 who helped Japan???? I ran a coke fired furnace with a huge blower! I seen more engines and intakes going in that furnace than i want to think about. This was before the big steel crisis. Around 1974 and 1975. The green people were very active at shutting down these type of furnaces.

1968_Post

I used to deliver parts to all the body shops that surrounded the Campbell works in the Steel Valley. The red Iron Oxide dust was so thick that it was hard to see traffic lights. In the middle of July,, with no a/c, I had to leave the windows up in the delivery truck just to be able to breathe. Mill workers had what was called "mill cars" that they drove because the toxic emissions generated by those furnaces ate the paint and the chrome right off the car. The lakes and rivers were so polluted fish could not survive. The EPA was responsible for a myriad of misdirected regulation, but stopping this sort of pollution was blatant as it held no place in a modernizing society.

wr1970

Never seen a problem with a coke fired furnace other than the sand size pellets. Which was the un-burned coke that went out the stack.The green people mandated a cap and bag containment!!If yours was not capped and bagged with air scrubbers in this time period around 74/75 i find that amusing! The foundry i worked at closed in 81 unable to compete with epa rules cost!

droldsmorland

Sad... bottom line is if we dont start manufacturing again were done. A country or a nation has to make a majority of its own goods to survive...(keep people working to pay into the system). We cant sustain as a service nation alone. Unfortunately the scourge politicians/lawyers and bean counters sell-out greed has clouded the water. Its the consumers fault as well. We're almost already "done" as a nation with the current clown at he helm for the last 8 years (although hes merely a puppet to the house,congress,senate clowns etc...), only to be back filled by another azz clown in November. All great nations will fall after a certain period of time due to many issues...e.g. too heavy at the top too stupid all around (you CANT fix stupid). The price we pay to police the planet? I do my part by voting (for the lesser azz clown if thats possible) and buying other than mexican/chineasium JUNK when ever humanly possible even if its 3x the cost. I cant tell you how many times I've put something back on the shelf because it didn't say USA on it. When the vendor or retailer asks why I tell them Im not putting chinese junk in my tool box on my car or in my food. Im generally quite boisterous about too so other customer here me. If everyone here did this it would be a huge show of solidarity and hit the clowns right where it hurts the most...their big fat wallets.
Be nice to see every able body 18+ American vote. Be nice to see a third party choice verses just azz and hole. Be nice to see someone worth voting for to address these problems and actually have the brass to implement them. Till then business as usual...Pass the joint please!

1968_Post

My intent was not to divert the original message of the post to a discussion of the environment. My intent was to suggest fault lies in more than just government regulation. I personally am not a proponent of unions today, but also remember a quote I believe was attributed (could br wrong on this)to Churchill (paraphrased) that stated "the day unions cease to exist is the day they will again be necessary".

wr1970

The intent was showing jobs leaving and auto's being produced in a different nation! Environment plays a role as do rules that leave companies broke and un-able to compete in the world market where other nations have no pollution laws. Let alone unions.Go read why unions were formed! I have been bleeding taxes and it never ends just gets higher. Love my state hate my taxes! Over the life of my car everyone who doesn't live in Kansas has a cheaper car!LOL We have some of the highest cost in the nation.

coppercutlass

Try living in the Chicago suburbs living ain't cheap lol. I could have alot more house wise if I moved an hr north to wisc.

1968_Post

I must be typing in invisible ink... Believe it or not, I understood the point of the original post. As I said in my last post, I find it short sighted to place all blame on just one entity. As far as knowing where and why unions began, I actually did go to school and grew up in a pro-union environment. I said I'm not a union proponent, I didn't say there was not a need for them. Read the quote...


copper, I lived in the western burbs and worked in Westmont for 17 years... loved the lifestyle in Chi-town but couldn't handle the property taxes.

coppercutlass

68 post I got lucky and bought my place cheap and it pays more to do my trade here than down south or even north of the il wi. Border. Down south you might make 15 bucks per book hr. out here for body shops you cap out at 20 bucks an hr but a decently busy shop you will regularly book 80 hrs no problem per week.