66ninetyeightls

http://toronto.kijiji.ca/c-cars-vehi...AdIdZ411441203

MDchanic

Oh, I believe it.

I wonder whether it's as illegal up there as it is down here?

- Eric

66ninetyeightls

Highly illegal! I couldn't believe what I was reading!

rocketraider

I would absolutely believe it, though I don't see why someone's offering a 71 Camaro set unless it's a bonafide Z28.

In 1994, someone at Charlotte AutoFair had a rusted, stripped 69 Camaro pace car shell that was beyond all practical repair, but the guy wanted $2500 for the VIN plate and pace car body tag. And damned if he didn't sell it.

Shenanigans like that are one reason I steer clear of Chevrolet and Pontiac musclecars.

MDchanic

No kidding.

The paper (build sheets, etc) is more valuable than the cars.

- Eric

sammy

I have never seen it advertised

m371961

Saw a boss 429 stang, no quarters, sub frame, doors or front end go for 3000 at Carlisle.
Had title. Wonder how many people have bought restorations that others have faked.

CRUZN 66

Do you believe Oldsmobile, Buick, etc. aren't affected by some of those same type issues? Or that it is just more prevelent with Chevy & Pontiac?

edzolz

Once the reproduction bodies hit the market, this started happening. Buy the real steel repro body, get yourself a vin tag and paperwork and instantly you have a new muscle car. As far as I know there are no new steel Olds bodies being made.

MDchanic

It's not necessarily fake.
There are companies out there on the Chebby world that will make you a whole new collectible car.
Instead of starting with a VIN plate, which is illegal, they start with a section of the cowl, which is perfectly legal, and the customer gets a brand-new, documented-original old car (or a top notch low-mileage original rare car, if a low-mile granny car is used as the base).

I find it repugnant, but there it is.

- Eric

joe_padavano

This is a slippery slope. Is it illegal to replace floors, quarters, roof, firewall, front fenders, and doors? How about engine and subframe? Who defined that the square inch of sheetmetal around the VIN tag is sacred? Personally, if I had a very rusty but valuable car (say, oh, a 1969 H/O...), using an original rust-free Cutlass shell with factory welds and seam sealer and moving the VIN tag over would result in an end product that was probably better than one with a patchwork of Chinesium repro panels.

Just sayin'

By the way, if you read the Federal law, this is not technically illegal. If you have legal title to both cars, and you are not attempting to commit fraud, this is legal. As an example, GM sells complete brand-new cabs for their pickup trucks. These have no VIN tag. When a tree lands on your Chevy pickup, it's both easier and legal to swap the cab and transfer the VIN tag than to attempt extensive metalwork.

Run to Rund

I have posted before in line with what Joe just said. Olds parts offered a body shell under group 10.001. They offered frames and other sheet metal pieces. Is bondo and patch panel repair better than a rust free shell? The thing for me is, did the restoration remain faithful to the original car? If the original car was stripped down to components, everything disassembled, and then re-assembled just as faithfully with correct parts, you are not just switching tags. The next step is to tell others and the buyer if ever you sell it, what you did, how, documented with pictures, etc. I think that should go for all restorations. I sure wouldn't want to pay high dollars for a beautifully finished 66 W30 and later find that it was bondo and patches from the door handles down, and incorrectly restored vs. the original option package for the original car.
As an example, car 43 was crushed by its perhaps short-sighted owner because it was a Detroit rust bucket. Key parts survived and a car was "resurrected" but did not have the same options on it. If the new owner prefers dog dish wheel covers and different chrome trim, that is fine, but I hope he documented the changes.

MDchanic

I hear ya, Joe.
It would not bother me if an individual hobbiast did this himself, so long as he disclosed it to any future buyers, but commercial concerns "manufacturing" "rare" "classics" in this way does bother me. (I do understand that it's quite a grey line).

As for the seller in question, if I am not mistaken, what HE is doing IS illegal, as he is NOT selling a whole car for someone else to cut a few parts off of, but is selling just the number plates, along with the paper.
It's been a while, but I believe that when I looked it up a few years ago, this was a no-no, if not federally, then at the state level.

- Eric

joe_padavano

State laws are all over the map, unfortunately. For example, the wording of the law in Maryland could be interpreted to mean that altering ANY component with a VIN derivative is illegal. Fortunately it's not enforced that way, but the language is not precise and could be.