2blu442

Hey all, I've just about finished stripping a 1972 Cutlass S, (OK, I confess, I just like taking things apart ). I knew there was a vin number stamped on the frame underneath the door. But on this frame I also found a vin number stamped just behind the drivers side rear tire. Has anybody seen this before? Maybe someone on the line got bored and just wacked it one more time??? I'm also including pictures of what looks like a decal on the frame just above the rear tires. One on each side, covered with undercoating so I can't tell what it was. Anybody know what these would have said? I'm not using the frame (anybody need one?) but decided it would store a little better stripped down and leaning behind the garage than taking up driveway space. John

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Run to Rund

Both locations were stamped with a hand-held roller machine. The management figured at least one of the two locations would be legible.

kjr442

I found mine in the same spot, drivers side right behind the rear wheel. My car was built in Arlington TX,

jpc647

Damn, neither can be read with the body still on the frame,

TK-65

65 frame



Frame code sticker

jensenracing77

i have seen several frames VIN stamping but never seen one on the top side for 70 to 72. all of them i have seen are on the side and 2 places under the door. also, the ones i have seen are not as deep as those. i think all of them i have seen were M built.

Allan R

RATS!! Now I have this overpowering urge to do a frame off resto and document that my frame matches the VIN....unfortunately I also like to take things apart so this might just happen . Could you see that with an angle mirror with the body still on the car?

Yeah, John.. that sticker says "Do not cover this sticker with undercoating, it has info about this frame on it"

Looks like a nice rolling chassis! That PS pump looks to be in nice shape - got dents in it?

jensenracing77

just went out to look at a 70 Vista frame. it is made in Michigan also.

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TK-65

They looked like this, Im such a geek that I made one for my car but I put it where you can see it.

Allan R

TK, that looks awesome. If you consider yourself a geek for doing this, I think you will have a large cult following soon.. Now, what does the lettering and numbering mean? PA? Is that the factory that made the frame? What are all the small numbers? Are they supposed to match the VIN digits? Now you got me really curious to find out.

You blasted and powdercoated the frame right? Looks too perfect. I didn't realize the body insulators were that light green color; thought they were black.

TK-65

The frame code chart is in the assembly manuals. The code I used was for the 65 442 non boxed (non vert) frame. So each year and each application will have a different code and part number.

My frame was blasted and painted. Look at one of the above pics from John and youll see an original green body puck.

Allan R

Thx TK, good info.
BTW, when I originally looked at Johns photo, I thought the puck had been discolored by ... body paint or something. When I was doing the front frame rails on my car, the front puck looked black, but that was obviously because I didn't lift the body off the chassis and had layers of crud on it. One of these days I just have to do that. Not because I have to, just because I want to. Maybe on a different project car though.

FYI, I displayed the (reproduced) Olds factory window sticker you made for my car at the last show I was at. Lots of comments about how cool it was and where did I get it. If you're still doing this, LMK. You can send me some business cards and I'll hand them out next year. Maybe I could get Ken to put it in our local Olds chapter newsletter too! If you don't have my mailing address send me a PM and I'll get it to you. Cheers!

stevengerard

you can see the frame number without removing the body, at least I can see mine in front of the door behind the front wheel, all I needed was a flashlight matches the VIN

stevengerard

Would these stickers be upside down like the VINs since the frame was sent down the line upside down at first?

Allan R

Maybe I'm looking in the wrong places. Is that on the inside of the frame rail or outside? My car is up on jackstands right now so I can get under it, but the body overhangs the outside of the frame making it impossible to see anything stamped on top. Is the frame number on the side of the rail or on top? If it's on the side, I'm screwed; it's all covered with undercoat

stevengerard

Its on the side facing you when you look at it, I had a little undercoating near there but not much right under the door hinges IIRC

jpc647

On the driver side?

TK-65

probably, but like I said I put where you can see it so that didnt matter to me.

TK-65

If your floor pan had a hole and you could look down at the frame from inside the car, you would see the VIN stampings.

Allan R

If my car had a hole in the floor pan the frame would probably be in the same shape and I wouldn't trust it being up on jacks while I crawl under it all the time I'll get around to finding it one of these days....At least I know my VIN matches my engine and tranny for now! I had no idea that even the frame got matched up with numbers. Is this what is truly called a numbers matching car??

TK-65

Frame had to have a VIN, it was a federal requirement.

This 65 has a VIN back on the rear trunk area.



Numbers matching means all numbers are dated to the build of the car, trans, rear, alternator, voltage regulator, starter, etc. Anything with a date code has to be in the build window of the car. Not to mention the engine has to be original and match the VIN or the POP code for those engines that didnt get VINs stamped on them.

More or less people use numbers matching as a way to say it has the original engine/trans/rear. Many people have no idea about the frame VIN.

One more frame sticker.

stevengerard

Yes, once I found it it was pretty obvious where it was, haven't had a problem seeing it again

TK-65

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wmachine

I totally disagree. Without defining what numbers match what, the term "numbers matching" is meaningless and thus has become a a useless term. Just as pointed out, it means different things to different people. It was intended to be a term that implied some originality, but given the latitude of use it now has, it means virtually nothing. "Date coded correct" parts are not more correct and certainly not more original. "Build windows" are theoretical and again can just about be anything you want it to be.
There is more concern nowadays that a "number" is correct than there is for the part being correct. Which ironically is why the part has a number on it to begin with.

TK-65

Yes it is misunderstood and used very loosely by sellers and owners. It seems that the holy grail of correctness (read ridiculous) agree with my thoughts on the term.

http://forums.corvetteforum.com/fact...g-numbers.html

Everything has a date code and part number. Glass, rear end, alt, seat belts, starter, exhaust manifolds, etc. They all have to be dated and correct to the car. Thats numbers matching. And if you have a build sheet, you can check to see if the codes and numbers match that sheet. There is no argument there.

wmachine

Not true. I'd be willing to venture that most individual parts do *not* have date codes, and many do not have part numbers. And many have numbers on them that are not "part numbers".

For most of the parts, there are not codes to match on the part.

We need to guard against sweeping generalities. That is exactly what "numbers matching" is. Unless defined *in use*, it means nothing. If Corvette guys or anyone else wants to define it for their use and then use it within their context, fine. But Corvette guys use don't make something universal. Remember, it is Corvette guys that are running around today with more documented original big block cars than were ever produced to begin with.

TK-65

Thats exactly why it should mean more to Oldsmobile people. Corvette guys have every part ever made at their disposal. And its accepted to restamp blocks. If an Oldsmobile has date coded and correct parts, it should make it more of car than one that has correct looking parts. Thats a big reason why Oldsmobiles suck hind tit when it comes to documentation, originality and judging at the OCAs. Corvette guys are way overboard with their standards, and we cant decide what numbers matching means.

Put it this way, if a part has a date code and part number it needs to match what came on that car originally and match the numbers known to have been on those parts. Then and only then is that car completely numbers matching. Thats what it means to me.

BTW are there not more W cars around today than Lansing ever made????

wmachine

Sorry, but I don't aspire to the Corvette crowd. Don't get me wrong, Corvette people *are* more motivated. But unfortunately, much of it is money and ego eccentric. Why is it acceptable to restamp a block? An *added* number does not change the part. It only changes the perception of what the part is. And the only reason to change the perception of a part is fraud. The number is *not* part of the part, it is the identification of the the part. The absurdity of accepting number changes is no different than forging documentation. It is an extension of the same thing. That's why there are more big block Corvettes out there than were ever made. And another telling thing is that those that are trying to make that all sound acceptable are those that have a financial interest in it that they are trying to protect. No thanks, that's not anything I want to support.
Furthermore, Oldsmobile is make, Corvette is a model. Much easier to support a model, especially with a much larger financial base.
Yes, overboard, indeed. But not where I want to go.

Okay, if that works for you. Take any car and go over it and stamp all the right numbers on it and fill out some papers that say the same thing. (And what you end up with is a big block Corvette!)
What works for me is correct parts (original even better even if not perfect) regardless of what number is on it.


There may be. It was the joke in the '90s that there were more '70 W30s in existence at the time than Lansing ever made.
And now it is Tri-Carb '66 442s. I happen to have one of the rare 4-bbl versions.

TK-65

This is all about numbers matching, not numbers changing. Its kinda hard to change a date code thats been cast into a part, for example an exhaust manifold. How do you change the date code on an engine block??? How do you restamp a distributor? Its impossible to change the date of your glass. When did this discussion devolve into restamping parts???

Getting the right parts with the correct numbers, along with having the original drivetrain is called a complete numbers matching restoration. A term you say doesnt exist and means nothing, when in fact it does mean something.

My car is "factory correct", I found NOS and original parts to use in my restoration. Parts that were not original to the car but are original parts. However, I didnt care about their date codes.

Thats all I got to say on this.

MDchanic

I'd say it's called masturbation.

Which I call restoration, and which I can respect.

- Eric

TK-65

A lot of Chevy, Mustang and Mopar guys love doing it.

73supreme

I came here to research A body frames and their ID numbers. I saw the discussion devolve into numbers matching bashing. I think that what has been neglecting was the why date codes are used in products. The idea is for tracking manufacturing defects, changes, recalls as well as applications. The nice thing about GM is that these cars were designed to be interchangeable in many ways. You can build your car from any pile of stuff that fits or you can spend time and money tracking down date coded parts to be sure that it is "restored" to original. Hey, if you sleep better knowing those numbers match, very good. After 40 to 60 years, there are not many cars left with all the parts they were built with. I get as close as I can on the big stuff and DRIVE the damned thing while I still can!!

RRB

Resurrecting this thread with the hope someone here can tell me if a GM G-Body (1972 Pontiac Grand Prix) which is a stretched A-Body had the VIN frame number in the same locations as an A-Body and like the pictures shown in this thread. I have looked but am unable to locate. THX.

Oldsmobile Joe1

Hello everyone, I have an inspection for my 1969 442 that is required by Washington State Patrol. The state patrol would like to see the stamped vin # on the frame of the 442. I have been researching on the site. This 442 is out of Oshawa, Canada. What location would the vin derivative be located on a Canadian built 442?
I would appreciate any help in this matter.

Thank you,

Vernon

droldsmorland

Well.....tell them what they would like to see aint gonna happen.
Tell them the body would need to be separated from the frame to read it.
Show them this thread.

BangScreech4-4-2

Why would the state patrol want to see that? Is the car a theft recovery?

Oldsmobile Joe1

Thats a good question. But no it is not a theft recovery I do have a bill of sale. Washington State requires an inspection if you can only provide a bill of sale and not a title. Some states are okay with a bill of sale. Washington however is not one of them. When I made my appointment with the State Patrol the trooper I spoke with requested to see the stamped frame location. This 69 442 requires a complete restoration from the frame up. The frame it self is rusted. The problem also with Washington State after inspection and if they approve it takes 3 years to get your title. Luckly I have another 69 to restore while waiting. I have until the 17th to find the stamped location. If I can not find it by the 14th I will call the state patrol on the 15 and ask the what if question. I been through all the threads on here that pertain to this matter. As to droldsmorland point I will copy some threads and provide that as well. I was hoping to find the answer here.

Thank you,

Vernon

BackInTheGame

I've never heard that the frame VIN is anywhere other than indicated in the photos at the start of this thread. You may be able to see it with a mirror on a telescoping rod, or you may need to loosen/remove the body-to-frame bolts and lift the body a bit on the driver's side.