I think it's well past the time to have a regular grading system break down with these classic cars. Went to two shows over the weekend to check out a couple "showroom quality cars". Guess what one guy had showroom paint and not much else the other guy had a driver quality at best. I think it's time to start a company that will document and grade your car similar to PSA & Beckett do with baseball cards & sports memorabilia. To many people say showroom in there ads or driver only to find out its way below that. There needs to be a more detailed grading system 1 to 10 breakdown than an overall number. Could have certificates printed up with the breakdown like Paint 6 body 8 engine 7 interior 9 etc. PSA makes a fortune doing this and many companies have spun off also making money. Hire some well known custom builder get his name behind it have a couple dozen trained inspectors (sub-contractors) around the country that come to you to inspect. Just spit balling here but I'm just sick and tired of looking at a so called driver quality ends up being a mixed bag of poor & driver quality. Or showroom ends up a mixed bag of show & driver. I just think the terms driver & showroom are just to much of a broad stroke. It would also eliminate frauds clones stating numbers matching or in my recent case "It's a real W-30 Anyone think this could work of course you would need to throw some money at it and it would take some time to get established. By using the strictest inspections a 10 is practically impossible 9s also pretty tough. A 5 is driver quality a 7 is showroom & above that is near mint to mint. There's def a need.

 

The Old Car Price Guide six conditions seem to do ok.

 

eh maybe i know i wouldnt pay for it, but thats true for a lot of things that other people buy. and probably the guy w a 'show car' thats a driver wont pay either.

if it says driver to me that encompasses anything less than perfect all the down to servicable but barely.
show car is a trailer queen

needs total restore covers anything else.

 

Once established some people wouldn't purchase a car without a certified grade. Baseball cards are worth way more once PSA puts there stamp on it. Even if the seller does not agree with the grade PSA is law and all other companies give softer grades and not as reputable. It's certainly far fetched for myself but don't be suprised if like a Barrett Jackson or someone does it. If your buying a 100K car as an investment you would certainly pay a grand to have it throughly gone over. Have that overall 9 cert in your hand for resale can't hurt.

 

I like the idea

 

I'm the only one who certifies a car I'm going to buy. It's all subjective no mater who certifies it, you or some guy who wants you to pay money for his ides of what is correct. Personally I don't need it and if it becomes the way classic cars will be sold we will all be paying extra for some someone else s opinion and a piece of paper who may or may not know what he or she is talking about.

It takes about 5 minutes or less to tell if a car is a driver or a queen.Why pay extra for that..... Tedd

 

Because you obviously know what your looking at. The guy with the endless check book ( and there are many) feels all warm and fuzzy with a inspection cert. How bad is the reputation of the used car salesman ? Some stereotyped but most are trying to sell you something they know nothing about and are willing to go to great lengths to convince you otherwise. You buy a Mike Trout autographed rookie card on eBay you will be damn glad to know PSA graded it mint. Same principle I now can feel comfortable buying a car from across the country without even seeing it because it has a cert.

 

You would pay big bucks sight unseen on a 50 year old car some else restored on the word of another person who took a look at it and pronounced it fit to be a trailer queen. I guess my bucks aren't big enough or I'm not trusting enough. Know your product before you buy is my recommendation but to each his owne....Tedd

 

I think your missing my point. The same way I would by a Ty Cobb autographed ball worth 20 grand yes I would buy that ball site unseen if certified by PSA. If the same ball was graded by Beckett or Grade My Card.com no I would not. I am a sports memorabilia collector and I know the value of a reputable company like PSA if you collected you would agree with me. Now apply the same to cars That's the type of company Im talking about. Anyone & everyone associated with cars will know your word or your cert or grading system is the best no questions asked. At that point yes I would buy based on that kind of companies cert site unseen. You don't always have the luxury to see a car that's being sold you and I do but the fat cats who do this for a living or the guy on the phone buying a 60K car at a BJ auction is trusting somebody down there. He's a little worried I'm sure. Takes all the guess work out, most people have money and zero car knowledge. It would take money a big name and time but it's a gold mine after that.

 

If there were ever an example of comparing apples and oranges, comparing the evaluation of an old car with the evaluation of a baseball card is it. It's far more difficult to get consensus on old car condition levels and prices. Just look at the differences in prices given by some of the online and printed price guides. Look at the general level of agreement/disagreement on this website about what a car might be worth. Unless everyone agrees on a single evaluator, it would never work, and agreement on a single evaluator will never happen.

And how would this happen in a practical sense? It's one thing to mail a 2 oz baseball card across the country to whatever organization rates it versus getting someone to come and look at whatever car is being evaluated. A car can't be mailed. Whatever this company is would have to have offices all over the country to send reps to the cars. That would be an enormous undertaking, and each car would be evaluated by a different person, so there would still be subjectivity, which would still lead to disagreements, and we'd be right back where we started.

The value of an old car has been a point of contention, disagreement, and discussion for as long as anyone has collected an old car as a hobby, which means decades going on centuries now. If something like this were viable, it would have happened by now. The closest thing we have, and the closest we're likely to ever have, is the price guides, however imperfect they might be.

 

Beat me to it, Jaunty.

A car is only several orders of magnitude more complex than a rectangular piece of cardboard.
The near-impossibility of being absolutely CERTAIN that a car's components are in a given condition without completely disassembling it would make any meaningful guarantee from any inspector impossible, therefore the word of a particular company could never have the same value as the word of "PSA" apparently does.

- Eric

 

This mine field of getting into " IT " might be the most difficult part .
EXAMPLE : At Barrett - Jackson , they currently EMPLOY for General Motors -
Jerry MacNeish , Ford - Kevin Marti , and Chrysler - Galen Govier .
Each one of these people are acknowledged as the best of the best in their respective manufacturer of cars . Each has their own reputation , and each is VERY good . They all charge differently , and all validate somewhat different criteria . That being said , Jerry and Galen are both IN the game of buying / representing cars - selling parts - and have long stood behind what they do .
They are professionals . Kevin is different , he is authorized by Ford Motor Company , and tends to limit his scope of cars more , and has the backing from Ford on verification of VIN's and numbers . I've watched Kevin in action , he is specific - professional - and MAY have been wrong only once .

Let us further complicate getting involved in this business . Say YOU are the inspector . Take 15 - 20 high res images . AND bring your introductory question /check list . FIRST . Checking into all previous owners ? Who performed restoration ? Receipts for work ? Can I talk with previous owners and specialty restoration shops ? Yikes . IF you are talking with an owner or representative for the car , you will START to DRAW a Crowd . My example here is Scottsdale , Barrett - Jackson . I've done B - J for 75 days - evenings in the last 10 years . MY only Mecum experience was at the now defunct auction they had @ Back to The Fifties at the Minnesota State Fairgrounds .
I do not have enough current info. on Mecum to get a feel .
I do have a buyer and seller friends that were @ B - J Reno last weekend , and will be @ Mecum Monterey NEXT ? week .. reports if anyone wants .
Scottsdale is really an outlier . Russo Steele is down the block , R.M. Auctions and Gooding and Co. same weekend . . . There is not enough time to see everything in that week .
I like your comparison to Baseball Cards . PSA for 1950's - 1980's Cards . SCG for Pre - 50's Cards and Beckett for 80's - current . That really seems to work . We can draw many similarities .
AS we are only spitballing here , I have an additional idea to present . ONE idea that comes to my mind is live use of " Periscope " or You Tube to do live walk arounds - right up to selling a specific car on the block ... I do NOT have the technology to do this YET , but I have friends that could ...
Looking forward to being flamed soon , but , I think this can be a beginning to establishing verifiable standards on specific cars . Cheers , JT

 

Really these so called experts at Barrett Jackson make me and many of my friends just sick. These and many more in this hobby have just about ruined everything about owning classic cars. Over paid so called experts with millionaire classic car buyers with nothing better to do then to buy Car lots of classic cars to try and run the value of a classic cars up and then watch them fall in price just a few years later. Keeping them out of the Range of the Average Car guy who would love to have one. The Classic car World would be so much better off without any of them!

 

You basicly made the whole point for me. Look at the discrepancies between online, magazines etc. basis for contention all that stuff well said & that's the problem. Now time to think a little outside the box. PSA was simply an example of a gold standard company that is the first name that comes to mind if you needed sports memorabilia graded. Most collectors won't buy anything without a PSA cert.
You would have shops set up nationwide but have a low number of the big shot inspectors. the guys with the names. That Keeps them in demand, puts people on waiting lists, money people love that **** makes them feel special. Like ordering that new Mercedes before anyone else. You would also have a lot of different classes. From muscle mint to muscle poor (obviously muscle poor class would not require one of our best) Sports Car, Antique, Truck, etc. With each one broken down interior, chassis, body & paint drivetrain, overall grade, etc. Agreed the motors would be difficult to completely get perfect but our guys are the best remember. Mileage , sound, dyno testing, down to licking the dipstick to see if anything tastes funky. Investors would stand in line to have there own cars certified by the best mechanical minds yet alone request one when purchasing. (Drops mic walks away)

 

No they wouldn't. The last thing someone with a valuable car wants is somebody to tear his car apart and tell him it's not what he thinks it is.

Completely unrealistic.

Never happen.

"Not holding my breath."

Etc.

- Eric

 

Everyone has at least one person they trust with there car either you know him or its Richard Petty the whole point is to build a reputation as the best leaving any doubt even to the most skeptical. Nice discussion though I can see points from both sides.

 

I think this is a fair subject for a member survey:


"Would you trust (and pay money to) a reputable nationwide company (or network of franchisees) to inspect your car (and provide a dated assessment, which would have to be updated regularly, for a price, in order to be meaningful), or to inspect a car you are interested in buying?"

A. Yes, I would be interested in this for both buying and selling
B. Yes, but only to check a distant car I might want to buy
C. Yes, for any car I might want to buy, either distant or nearby
D. Yes, to make my car more attractive to potential buyers when I am selling
E. No, I trust my own eyes, or maybe those of a friend. Stay away from my car



Feel free to use my format, or create your own.

- Eric

 

Man that's a bias survey by that wording I wouldn't pay either. Who said anything about a network of franchisees. Just disagree and move on. I happen to think it would work with the right people. Not white collar Barrett Jackson so called experts I'm talking about guys with the grease under the nails engine builders, 3rd generation & doing it there whole life.

 

Seriously, I'm curious what people think. I came up with my own wording, but, of course, you can come up with yours, because this is your idea.

Why not start a survey thread, with the survey worded any way that you want, and see what people say?
As I say, I'm curious, and it sounds as though you are, too.
My guess is that most here would say that they wouldn't use such a service, but I could easily be wrong, and it would be interesting to see what people think.

... And if it's not a network of franchises, then what would it be? I doubt you could get enough investor support to open offices with employees across the country.
I'm trying to think this thing through, rather than leave it as a nebulous idea.

- Eric

 

Exactly. How could you not do this on a nationwide basis without some network of offices, franchised or company-owned, around the country? The same three guys are going to hop on planes at a moment's notice and spend their lives flying around the country? I don't think so.

 

Ok it's really not this hard first everyone or mostly everyone here knows cars your oviously not the market for a inspection agency or car grading company. I'm an electrician & electrical inspector I wouldn't want some inspector checking over my work either. Pretend for a minute you know nothing about cars but see a massive investment opportunitiy your ready to lay out 80k on a rare numbers matching, all original corvette. Wouldnt it be nice not to worry if it's the real deal or if your being swindled. You don't hesitate for a second you need this car gone over soup to nuts. There's only one place with the trusted reputation. The well know inspector either jumps on a plane or the car is shipped to him. The whole process might cost a couple grand but once done you have that cert in your hand that golden ticket universally known. Piece of mind that when its time for resale there's no questions asked. Only the extra miles put on need to be gone over. Not the numbers or if it's all original or whatever. It's like a detailed home inspection. I know everything about construction from the roof to the foundation. When I bought my 350K home I got a $700 home inspection. Bet most of you did the same. There's something said about that piece of mind when laying out big money.
You guys are getting insulted not wanted some stranger trumping your own evaluation. Again car guys are not the market. White collar fat cats who invest or collect. These guys roll the dice all the time buying exotics over seas, antiques on the opposite coast etc..This business would start off as only super high end that's how the name gets established. Only then can it spin off to all condition autos.

 

These guys are already in there own garages nationwide. They would need to complete our very tough training and final grades could be overseen by us over the web. The big money stuff gets the big money attention. Fly a inspector, ship a car, whatever. Haven't thought everything thru down to the last detail but that's kinda the idea. Any ole grease monkey would not be able to complete our training & testing. But the sharper guys will and that's what you want anyway. He's motivated by all the extra business, naturally minus our 35%

 

Man this is tough crowd!First do i think this is possible yes.How as a collective resource by compiling known facts. Building a checks and balance form for the inspectors who are human and still could make a observation mistake with out a form to fill out with a comments section on the most important parts to verify. This is done with furniture antiques all the time. Even i hate to say it in the ART world for paintings. To sum it up {very complicated} but doable by class grading that you suggested as price range to reflect value. Would the average guy accept this time would tell.

 

As a pre purchase inspection service I can see this working, but having a car with a certificate that is say one, five, ten years old is meaningless. You buy a certified baseball card or coin etc. it's encapsulated in a plastic case never to be exposed to the elements or human touch again, a car is a little tougher to ensure it is kept in its certified condition. Like a home inspection if you were purchasing a home and the seller whipped out his 20 year old home inspection certificate and declared the home perfect you probably wouldn't put much faith in it. Again an established bench mark pre purchase inspection standard seems like a pretty good idea however.

 

Again that is the point if you go to sell it it would require a new inspection to verify condition.Is this really that hard to understand guys.What the op is getting at {Time for change} we as hobbyist are somewhat bull headed.Did i mention tightwads.

 

Uuuugggrrgh... Unggghhhh... Grrrrrrrrrrrr...

Nope, sorry. Tried. Can't imagine it.


You lost me.

I hate people like that.

Ruining the hobby.


How does this new buyer know that it's really the same car?

What if it's been wrecked, rebuilt as crap, and flipped? That certificate is meaningless after the first time, in fact, it's meaningless once the car is out of the inspector's hands.


You just described a franchise.

- Eric

 

Great point we call this repeat business, one of our regulars, old friends, frequent flyers, this time around we will only charge 30%
I like it when we inspect for the buyer and the seller same car same transaction.
We call this a twofer, double dipping, coming & going, this service is 25% X 2 they think there getting a break we get 50% Life is good in the inspection business.

 

Well you lost me there! To get the repeat you need to charge less amount than you suggested for the same car.That is how you get even more business because you are there for the buying and the selling to protect this guys investment and showing him at the sametime.This shows him it's about him. This builds the relationship for future business. Because he will brag to everyone he meets what a sweet deal he got by using this service.JMO

 

I know I know got a little carried away thought it was funny in a Tony Soprano kind of way.