MaxDog

I took the olds out for a cruise today and there was immediately a popping/grinding sound coming from near the driver's side front wheel. Its not coming from the engine. It only happens when the car is moving. Its pretty damn loud.

In addition, I could feel a slight "wobble" coming from that wheel at low speed (approx 10 mph). I was obviously concerned, so I turned it around after about a 1/4 mile and headed back home. It was at this point that I also noticed a very slight, intermittent, high pitch "squeal."

The only thing I have done to the car in this area recently is I tightened the castle nuts on both wheels because they were WAY too loose. I could turn them with my fingers.

Any thoughts on what this might be? Wheel bearing maybe? Thank you.

MDchanic

Does the sound change when using your brakes?
Does it change when turning?

You say you just adjusted your wheel bearings.
Did you do it like this? ——



The nut is supposed to be finger tight when all is said and done, so if you tightened it much beyond that, and then put any miles on it, you may have wrecked your wheel bearings.

- Eric

MaxDog

No it does not change when using the brakes. Doesn't really seem to change when turning either.

And no I did not read or follow the directions for tightening the nuts. Who needs directions???? Apparently I do.

I put a couple hundred miles on it since I tightened the castle nuts. Is replacing the wheel bearings a big job? I saw LadyNRob's write-up regarding greasing the bearings. What about changing them entirely?

THanks.

MDchanic

That makes the brakes less likely as the cause, then.


If all else fails, read the instructions.

So when you say "tightened," how tight do you mean... ?

Wheel bearings are not a hard job - you have to pull the drums or rotors, then they're right there. You have to beat the old races out with a BFH, which is usually no big deal, then you tap in the new ones, pack and drop in the bearings, tighten to spec., and you're good.
The only trick is that you have to keep everything REALLY clean - no stray flecks of rust or anything like that.

And the best part is that the bearings are generally only $8-12 each.

- Eric

ps: replace the seal while you're at it, too. another $2.

MaxDog

Thanks for your response. I'll post a follow-up as to whether new bearings fixes the problem.

jaunty75

I have replaced front wheel bearings several times, and you must follow the directions as far as tightening and then backing off.

My guess is that, in tightening the castle nut, you've ruined the bearings in that wheel. I only hope you haven't also caused them to scrape the race they're inside of as well. If that happened, you'll need more than new bearings.

As noted, if there were ever a time that "read the directions" applies, it's in properly installing wheel bearings.

MaxDog

Don't the new bearings come with new races?

MDchanic

In my experience, yes.

- Eric

Allan R

One other thing to point out here. There are 2 sets of bearings - inner and outer. May as well do both sets.

X2 with what Eric pointed out. Having a CSM should be mandatory for anyone owning or doing maintenance to these old cars. Read, absorb, do. Take the darned book with you to the garage to reference if you run into problems pulling the rotor. And what ever you do, DON'T just let the caliper dangle on the end of the brake hose.

z11375ss

X2 on the dangle. You'll ruin that line for sure if you do it enough. I know I did it as a kid.

MaxDog

I bought the Timken inner and outer bearings, which both include the races, from Autozone. Also got the new seals. Total is about $50 to do both wheels. Not bad.

Thanks for advice on calipers. And yes, I will make damn sure to read the CSM this time!!!

Allan R

Looking forward to hearing how it turned out. Just info: When I pulled my rotors last year I didn't realize just how bad those grease seals had gotten. From a quick glance they looked fine, but on closer inspection it was easier to see they were cracked and due to fail at any time.

I'm super pleased you're doing the work on the car yourself. It's a great way to get involved and gives a sense of accomplishment at the same time that it saves you $$. There is a small indent in the inside of the rotor hub that is used to drive out the races - a great pic of it in the CSM in the Brakes section.

Timken is a great quality supplier of parts - good choice!

If you run into any snags along the way, we're as close as a mouse clik!

MaxDog

Ok, got the drivers side wheel pulled apart last night. Followed LadyNRob's excellent write up for pulling dissassemling everything. The outer bearing was totally trashed. I mean totally destroyed, not even recognizeable as a bearing. Needles were just loose inside the hub. Bearing cage was totally gone!!!!!!!!!!!! The inner bearing was still in good shape.

Both inner and outer races were in good shape. Couldn't get the races out with a punch as suggested in Rob's write-up. I nocked the **** out of the races, they wouldn't budge, totally jacked up my punches. Luckily I borrowed a "rear wheel bearing puller" and slide hammer from Autozone. Once I figured out how the damn bearing puller worked, connected it to the slide hammer, and a few hits on each and the races were out. They looked pretty good.

I'm going to clean up the hubs/rotors now with brake cleaner.

I am concerned about the spindle though. It looks ok to me, no damage that I can see. But I'm not sure. Can anyone post an upclose picture of a spindle off a 72 cutlass/442 so I can compare??

I have not been able to find an upclose shot of one on this site. Thanks so much

Allan R

This is from my rebuild 2 years ago. Hopefully it gives you what you're looking for.

Before


After cleanup and refurb


Installed




Hatched grease seal

Allan R

Strange that they would put up that much of a fight. Normally a series of good whacks with your BFH and drift going on alternate sides does the trick in short order.

That's a perfect way to do it. Clean out as much of the grease as you can from the inner part of the rotor first so you don't waste BF. While you're at it, take a good look at the wheel studs to see how they're holding up. This is the time to replace the wheel studs if you're going to do that. (The studs can be removed by hitting them out with a BFH. They have splined seats so they are in there pretty good. install new ones is easy too. Tap in to start, then use a wheel nut on top of about 4 large washers to suck the new stud into place and seat the splines) LOL that's a bit of work. I use an air impact to make it easier.

I know you have all new stuff, so this is just for anyone who reads this. Rule of thumb: new races = new bearings and vice versa. Only time you re-use the old races is if you re-use the old bearings if they're in good shape. I was lucky with mine; the races and bearings were excellent. Just an acetone bath to clean, then re-pack for install.

Chances are you'll be just fine. The outer bearing and race should have kept the spindle from being damaged. Another really good tip: Take pics of everything you do. I've found that it helps a lot to see what was, during, and after. That's how I got those pics I posted earlier for you to look at of the spindles. I think my computer hates me with all the pics I've downloaded from the car during the last 2 1/2 years.

MaxDog

Thanks Allen. Picture number 3 is exactly what I needed. I was worried about the rough/irregular surface part of the spindle shaft that is in the middle part of the shaft. I assumed that this was part of the manufactured surface. But I wanted to make sure before putting everything back together. Looks good

MDchanic

Yeah, it's a cast (forged?) part, and the middle part is non-critical, so they were left non-machined.

- Eric

MaxDog

The hub/rotor cleaned up nicely with brake cleaner. Question, do i need to place any grease in the hub BEFORE installing the new races?

The lugs look good. I will take pics when I do the other wheel. Thanks.

m371961

I generally just put a light coating in the hub and on the spindle.
There is a special way to pack grease into the bearings. Do not just wipe grease on them and install. If you don't know about this, ask, unless your manual explains.

Allan R

No. Install the races (gentle tapping all around to set in place and fully seat.) without greasing anything. AFTER you've got the races and grease seal installed you can liberally slather the inside of the rotor hub with wheel bearing grease. Also put some on the spindle where it will be inside the hub.

Allan R

m371961 Ya posted just in front of me. Wasn't saying no to what you said. In fact you bring up a great point. Did a quick web search for MaxDog on how to grease the bearings. Only thing I don't like is the way it's tightened at the end instead of CSM recommendations. Still achieves the same results but overtightening was the problem that caused this whole kefuffle in the first place.

Here's the vid:

MDchanic

Don't try to tap the races in completely dry.

Just put a thin wipe of grease (or motor oil, or ATF) inside the bore whee they got, to allow them to slip in.

Also, if you throw the races in the freezer for a couple of hours and leave the hubs in the sun (or by the woodstove), the races should just drop right in.

- Eric

jaunty75

I don't have the terminology right. Whatever it is you press the new bearing into is what I was thinking about.

Allan R

Wowser Eric, you're on a roll! I totally forgot about the freeze trick. Much easier to freeze the race than the rotor

This is one of the reasons I love this site.

m371961

Service manual says lightly coat inside of hub and spindle, including area where seal and bearings ride. The cones need a little grease where they ride on spindle, as they are supposed to "creep" around it. Any shaft rubbed by a seal should be lubed by the grease /oil it is sealing inside. I personally do not grease area in hub where race installs. Race should be tight in hub.
Although this is at a 4x4 site, it shows how grease is forced inside of a wheel bearing, and is the proper way to do it. http://www.fullsizebronco.com/forum/...ad.php?t=75784
There is a tool for this, but not needed unless you don't like getting greasy.
Wear gloves and use a high quality wheel bearing grease.

m371961

Nice video Allan. You got it up there while I was looking for one.

MaxDog

x2

Finished packing the bearings. I hadn't done that since I was in high school 20ish years ago. I think I did a pretty good job. I watched a bunch of you tube videos first.

Got the seal in. Got the rotor back on. Got the thust washer back on. Just went and bought some new cotter pins. I also wanted to double check the torque spec Eric posted yesterday before tightening the castle nut. Almost done.

Allan R

Excellent! Now, are you going to check the other side to make sure it's properly greased and torqued too? (Somehow I knew you'd say yes and roll your eyes like that!) The more times you do this the easier it gets.

cjsdad

I would bet you a brand new unwrinkled paper dollar that your bearings were trashed already because you were able to tighten the castle nut as easily as you did. It is always a good idea to replace both sides at the same time too. Bearings are only surface hardened so if one bearing has failed it will likely only be a short time before the others will fail. And like you said, it isn't terribly expensive for the extra insurance.

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Allan R

Ya hooooo! St. Paddy's day is started already.

cjsdad

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MaxDog

Yes. I replaced the bearings on the other side too. I just finished. Much quicker and easier on the second wheel because I actually somewhat knew what I was doing after the first one.

The bearings on the second wheel looked fine. There was plenty of grease inside the hub, some of it was still white. Regardless, I cleaned and replaced everything, including the seal, the races, and the bearings.

One thing I noticed though. On the second wheel I did, the thrust washer had a little dingle-berry thing that fits into the slot on the spindle. I assume this is to keep the thrust washer from spinning. The thrust washer on the first wheel did not. I assume that is probably not good?

I guess I will probably try to find a replacement thrush washer.

Thanks for everyone's help.

MaxDog

[QUOTE=cjsdad;521571]I would bet you a brand new unwrinkled paper dollar that your bearings were trashed already because you were able to tighten the castle nut as easily as you did. It is always a good idea to replace both sides at the same time too. Bearings are only surface hardened so if one bearing has failed it will likely only be a short time before the others will fail. And like you said, it isn't terribly expensive for the extra insurance.



I think you are correct about the trashed bearing. "Trashed" is an understatement. I mean the freakin thing was non-existant. The only part of the cage that was remaining was a very thin circle of metal, just like if you took a paper clip and made it into a circle. That was it, I'm not exaggerating. That and two of the needles that were stuck in the grease. Everything else on the "outer bearing" side of the hub was just gone.

From the time I improperly tightened the castle nuts, the car was driven maybe four times. Three of those times were probably less than 4 miles. The 4th time I drove it from Victorville CA to Las Vegas. It took about 2.5 hours at between 75 and 80 mph. Its probably about 200 miles. So maybe that long distance high speed drive completely disintegrated the bearing, but I don't know. Could have already been well on its way before my improper tightening.

I'm just glad the freaking wheel didn't fly off, and I didn't die. The car's a convertible. Not the safest car to be driving on the freeway when you lose a front tire. I'm just sayin.

cjsdad

I'm sure you tightened the bearings properly, the nut only turns two directions!

What I meant is that the bearings and races only have a couple thousanths of hard surface. By the time that hard surface is worn away the bearings will be loose. So I'm suggesting the bearing that disintegrated was already beyond repair when you found it to be loose and tightened it. The rest of the bearings may have had a million more miles in them but it is always a good thing to replace them all at the same time.

I had an axle bearing go out on my work truck once that used the axle as the internal race. The shop only replaced the failed bearing. Of course the axle failed within a couple thousand miles. They replaced the axle and bearing again but not the other side even though I asked them to. Guess what? The other side failed within another couple thousand miles! They knew they would get three repairs out of it by doing things that way! And the management company was so cheap they would not pay for the preventative work I asked for so they ended up paying for more in the long run. The repair shop was sooo incompetent that I eventually had them intsall a used rearend assembly because they could not fix it correctly!

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Bronco Fan

Your assumption on the little dingle-berry thing is correct. Most auto parts stores should have spindle lock nut kits with the special washer in the Dorman line.

Allan R

The keeper on the washer will fit right into the groove on the spindle.

DORMAN Part # 618005 {#457707, 6180051, C2AZ1195A} Inside Dia: 3/4"; Outside Dia.: 1-21/32"; Thickness: 3/32"

MaxDog

You are correct. It looks like autozone has a set of two washers, two castle nuts, and two cotter pins for about 12 bucks. I'll switch the old ones out this weekend.

I did take the car on a short drive last night, no more noises from the front driver's side wheel!!!!

Thank you to everyone for your input. Very much appreciated.

MDchanic

You're welcome.

- Eric

rjohnson442

I just went through this the other week. I had the problem of the race being stuck in the Rotor with no keyway or lip anywhere to punch the race out. My buddy taught me the coolest trick. you weld it! One of three things will happen. You'll weld it to the rotor which is the Bad! Or what you really want to happen is the Heat will shrink the race and it will fall out. if not the weld you just put on the race will now allow you to tap it out from the backside. I did it with a stick welder and saved me from buying a new rotor. Worst case I had to get another rotor anyway if I couldn't get the old one out anyway. I thought this was the coolest trick and wanted to share.

oldcutlass

If you weld on the race, it will expand and make it tighter. In 40 years of messing with these cars, I never ran into one that could not be hammered out from the inside the hub.

I'm not saying that it's not cool, just unneccessary.