KZ442

I am assembling my 442 and I have a question, the gap between the hood and the stone guard seem a little to big to me. Some people say it's normal others say alittle to large. If it is larger how due you adjust that gap?? I attached a picture of my frt end.
Thanks,
KZ

kjr442

I am having the same problem, but I think mine is worse.

dc2x4drvr

I have looked at the gap on mine while it's been apart for painting, and unless the core support is "massaged" to allow the stone shield to be moved up, I don't see a way to narrow the gap.

Fun71

So where exactly is the jack point? And the weight of the vehicle is sufficient to "force it back up"?

Fun71

So slamming the hood is what causes it to "sink" in the first place? I'm not really following how that happens. The bump stops are outboard, near the fenders, so how is the latch area in the middle pushed that far downward?

kjr442

I have a NOS core support in my car, I think the gap is to big on mine too. So maybe it was just made wrong?

Allan R

If you look at every 71/72 Cutlass head on, you'll find that awkward gap. It has absolutely NOTHING to do with slamming the hood. They came that way from the factory too. You might try adjusting the hood bumpers at the front, or fender shims, but not much is going to change. My car's stone shield to hood gap is about normal I think. (and yes I know, I have to adjust one of the DS bumper mount rods for the perfect alignment)

frankr442

It's just the way the radiator support is made. The gap is even and your hood alignment looks great. I wouldn't mess with it.

Allan R

Here's what GM (Assembly Manual has to say) Just had to look it up, the info is there. I have seen unmolested original 72 cars with the gap that exceeds factory, and the hoods were well balanced; not requiring any slamming. Honestly though, you think hood closing wasn't factored into this by engineers?

Shim as needed. Reference page (sec 11) 200 1972 Cutlass Assembly Manual. Same info for 71 BTW only on page (sec 11) 180 1971 Cutlass Assembly Manual

dc2x4drvr

Thanks for this Allen, you beat me to it I was pretty sure that using a jack wasn't the correct procedure to fix the problem..
It's amazing the info in the AM..

Allan R

You're very welcome. I'm just sorry that it ended up upsetting the member who posted his fix. I noticed he deleted all his posts. There was never any intention to upset him.

Hope you get your adjustments done ok. Funny I didn't tweak into this sooner. When I took out my hood latch I noticed it had 2 shims under the rad support and never thought of why they were there.

66-3X2 442

I am here either to help or learn,not be be called a D A in your remarks about my fix. I didn't delete my posts because they were wrong about my fix,it was because of your remarks. When I try to correct somebody when I think they have it wrong,I use a little protocol,tact if you will. I'm not here to BS anybody,not my style,I just tell it like I know it,if I'm wrong,so be it but I'm here to help,not hinder.

kjr442

I never thought about the shims for that location, but it makes perfect sense. Thanks for posting. I was ready to try anything.

Allan R

Ok, I'll bite, what is a D A? I don't recall posting anything about a D A and you can go back and check my posts - they aren't edited and haven't been deleted. No one questioned your willingness to help and I don't think any of the references in any of the posts called BS on you. Chill out - you're over reacting to something that's just not there. Someone else can chime in and let me know if the post I submitted matches your claim. If it does, I'll gladly change it to something 'more tactful'. May I suggest your caustic replies also could use a tad of that same tact?

Whoa!! No one called you a liar, especially me, and my only emphasized comment was directed to what you thought the cause was, not your fix. I stand by my statement that slamming the hood is not the cause of any of the hood alignment issues in this post. There are hood bumpers along the side of the fender, and hood bumpers at the front corners of the rad support that cushion the hood closure. You speculated that the cause was slamming the hood. I simply don't agree with you. And BTW, yes I did get your quote via email notification before you deleted it.

Unfortunately now, no one can review your methods and suggestions since you've elected to punish everyone by deleting all your previous posts because you got upset with your perception of mine? I never said your fix wouldn't work (go back, review, and prove me wrong), but in all honesty I like the factory method of adjustment better.

66-3X2 442

Where I come from,when you capitalize a word,it's like shouting @ somebody. When you said slaming the hood has NOTHING to do with it,that's where the rub comes in. You don't like my posts,ignore me and likewise for me. The post about I made about calling me a liar was deleted after I took my own advice,I reworded it using a little tact. DA means dumb@$$ and when you just said you called bs on me,that's exactly what I'm talking about. I knew what you meant and you can say it wasn't but I think different.

rcktdoc

I have done many of these 71/72 442s and the core supports get twisted out of shape in the lock,center grill/gravel shield area Its common to have to tweek that area upwards to get good alignment on the grilles and or gravel shield to hood alignment. If you get it to close when yopu close the hood and slam it at all you will make contact with the grilles and or gravelshield. Problem is most everyone slams them because of incorrect adjustment or ignorance.

Greg

Allan R

My apologies, I didn't intend it that way. Where I come from a single word capitalized is 'emphasized', while an entire sentence or paragraph capitalized may or may not indicate anger. Just so you realize - not all demographic prose functions are carried automatically from one place to another. Moot issue. Your point is taken, although I won't go back and delete or edit my post - it can remain there for everyone who wants to read it to deliberate on. I doubt my apology to you will have any effect based on what you've already assumed.

I still maintain that slamming the hood has nothing to do with the cause of the hood alignment to the stone shield. Those issues are caused by folks changing a factory setting and lacking knowledge to restore it back. That's where the Assembly Manual, and creative thinking (such as your fix) come in. Your theory about why the hood latch is out of position is different than mine. I still advocate that the hood/alignment/supports are designed for hood slamming to occur, and re-shaping the rad support is not what the factory did. Will your fix work? Obviously it did. But you can see from the other posts there were others who were skeptical of your suggested fix, yet you jump all over me. I'm still waiting for you to prove that I said your fix wouldn't work.

BTW, I believe you're suggesting that if I disagree with your post about procedure I should just not say anything? Why? Who made you the C.O. police? This is an open forum where members can state their opinions (right or wrong). Sure it's not always going to be perfect, but you're taking this way to personally. If you have an axe to grind with my posts, simply notify an administrator and have the thread reviewed. If I'm out of line they'll let me know and I'll accept that. I will not however simply roll over and accept your criticisms of me based on your perception. I made 1 (one) post on this thread and you found that offensive enough to generate this debate? WOW!! ....and take that however you want.

Yes, very little tact. The message was almost identical except you left out Yeah, you're upset. I would be too if I thought someone was calling me a liar. But I never did. So the tone of your message still implies direct animosity from my perspective.


Get your facts and claims straight. And go back and re-read those underlined words. Everything you're bent out of shape about is based entirely on your dogmatic perception.

I never called b.s. on you, and you have no idea apparently what I meant, or how I think, or you would never have gone off like a 4th of July canon. You assume a lot that is based on unwarranted suppositions and your version of being attacked. From where I sit, you seem to be the antagonist by putting words I never said in my mouth. I did respond to the allegation you inferred using the letters BS, but it was in direct reference to what you posted first. Nowhere in my posts have I ever implied or suggested you were a DA, again - prove your point before you spout off.

Ok, this has gone on long enough. You can continue to think whatever you want. I suggest we just let the thread get back to it's OP and others who have found any of the posted information helpful.

66-3X2 442

Whatever Al,I'll think what I want and you think what you want. You're part of the establishment here and any further comments by me would probably get me tossed,so I'll just keep my thoughts about you to myself. You have a great day.

rcktdoc

The factory method of adjustment was for New cars with New parts.

Greg

66-3X2 442

Thank you.

rcktdoc

90% of the time that this area doesnt fit is because, at somtime the front bumper was push into the gravel shield and grilles. Its very rare to see a 68-72 cutlass or 442 that hasnt been bopped in the frontend.

Greg

66-3X2 442

This guy gets it and he knows what I'm talking about. A little advice for you guys who decide to shim the latch down to pull the hood down in the middle,especially you ram air hood guys,when the glass starts to crack because of the stress,I told you so. I'm going to say this one last time,after years of the hoods being shut/slammed down too hard,the flange on the support is down from it. When this happens,the grilles are also out of line with the hood. The gap on the hood molding and the grille molding will be tighter on the outboard side and wider on the stone shield side. I fixed mine by using a 2x4 and a floor jack. The 2x4 will go up to the bottom side of the flange area through the opening in the tag area. You put the jack under the 2X4 and start applying pressure and you will see the gap start to close. You will need to loosen the stone shield/grille mounting bolts to avoid breaking/cracking them. You will just have to experiment with the pressure needed to correct the problem. If your car never had the latch shimmed from the factory,the factory fix may work for you but if it has and you try shimming it down more,then you're asking for trouble. This is my opinion like it or not,just trying to help. If I have made enemies from my posts,I'm sorry but I don't post things just to hear myself talk,I'm trying to help and that's all I have to say on this subject.

kjr442

I don't want anyone to take this the wrong way, but like I already posted above, my core support is NOS.
How can it be right to bend my GM NOS part? Shims were made for imperfect parts, so it makes total sense to move the latch down, and adjust the bumbers on each side.this will not put any stress on my ram air hood that I can see.

allyolds68

Many times NOS parts were the ones that didn't make the cut on the assembly line. It wouldn't surprise me if this is the case with your core support. I've specifically heard this relative to fenders

66-3X2 442

I'm am not telling anybody to to use the method I suggested until you exhaust all other options. It's possible the factory fix for the assembly line problem may fix your car. All I'm saying is that with older cars that have this gap problem may need the fix I used. I would tell you or anybody to try the shim fix first,then it it doesn't help,look into the fix I used. The thing is you don't want to shim the latch down far enough to force it to pull the hood down in the middle putting excessive pressure on it. That's what I meant by possibly cracking the glass by shimming it too far. In my mind,the true indicator that the support may be down in the middle is how the hood moldings line up with the grille moldings. In a perfect world they should be level/parallel with each other. Also if the hood lines up with the fenders well and the gap is off,that would be another indicator the support may be down in the latch area. I hope this helps clarify things.

66-3X2 442

The thing is,these were not perfect from the factory to begin with. I've seen original cars with no work ever that had very bad gap problems. They were building cars to sell,not show cars and most of us are **** about how they should be but were not when built.

Allan R

Mike, while that may be true of some NOS parts, IMO it's certainly not true of all. GM was required to produce oversupply to cover the needs of maintenance and body shops, post model year production. (the number 10 years pops from memory). Kevin says he has an OEM NOS rad support, and I think it's worth considering that it may have been made in 72, but more likely it was post 72. Since it was stamped from the same dies that produced the ones that were used on the assembly line, I'm leaning to it being the right shape and fit. The fenders on my car are OEM NOS that I bought from the Olds dealer new in box, and that was in 1985. (I think I paid around the 200.00 mark for each) They fit 100% and didn't require anything other than the factory shimming at the cowl and rad support to give proper gaps for the hood.

I do understand the relationship of dealers having parts 'returned' for various reasons and just leaving them on a back shelf since they could claim defective part warranty and get rebate from GM. I worked with a dealer here who did that. Sometimes the parts walked off the shelf and were never seen again, but the majority of them were bundled and shipped back to the distribution center for whatever the process there was at the time. Not saying they didn't hit the market somewhere else again, but likely anyone who got them paid a discounted price for defective parts they thought they could tweak to fit. There are lots of claimed NOS OEM parts that hit ePay or other vendors this way I'm sure. But at the same time I don't think it's fair to Kevin to suggest that his may be one of those parts.

To everyone: All I'm suggesting is it might be more fair to consider that the majority of NOS OEM parts being bought may be exactly the same as those that would have been destined for assembly and production lines and fitment should work exactly the same.

Allan R

You and I agree on this. Some of the worst gap areas I've seen however were door/quarter and door/fender (at least by today's tight standards).

66-3X2 442

Another gap problem that I see on a lot of 70-72 Cutlass/442 is the fender/door gap/alignment. I've seen them with the fender bowed out so far it looks hideous. This is a very easy fix because with this problem they leave the bottom shims out and when tightened it pushes the fender up and bows it out. If the correct amount shims are placed at the bottom bolts,this doesn't happen.

Allan R

Thankyou for that insight, I'm glad you posted it because I have slightly bulged fenders halfway up on both sides (about 3/16"). I'll try your suggestion and shim the lower fender bolts to make that adjustment. Upper fender is the right height and matches the hood, so I'm guessing just undo the lower bolts, see if the bulge releases, and shim as needed?

I've asked a number of body guys how to fix that and they all tell me 'it's supposed to be like that'. I've never believed that since I've also seen cars that just don't have that problem. Glad you posted that.

Fun71

I can attest to this regarding the fenders. I bought two NOS fenders in the early 90s and the passengers side didn't fit correctly due to one of mounts being welded on incorrectly.

rcktdoc

Besides its over 40 years olds NOS or not its been passed around and who knows what has happened to it in that time.Just because its NOS doesnt mean it perfect.

Greg

kjr442

True, this was not a perfect part, but next to it. It still had the GM sticker on it. I couldn't find any evidence that it had ever been installed on a car, or that it had been mishandled in any way. No rust, surface, or otherwise, just very dusty.

Rocketbrian

I was searching the forum for hood/centre shield gap issues when I found this thread from earlier last year. I have received my 71 442 back from the body shop and have been disappointed/upset about the gap, which measured 23/32, or approx. .072. My SX has a gap of 17/32, (.053) while in excess of the factory gap of .035, or 11/32, was far more acceptable. I was trying to contemplate the factory method of moving the rad support forward, but all that would do is open up the gaps betwen the fenders and doors, which I already addressed and got much better. So that option was out for me. As everything is connected I couldn't see a solution to this problem, until I read this thread.
66-3x2 442, you are a life saver for me with your method. I used a 1x4 piece of wood so I wouldn't grab the plastic nose while jacking up the shroud. I unhooked the grilles as suggested, and cranked the shroud up in stages and left it up for a while and kept checking and repeated this several times before maxing out any possible changes. I then had to use shims, like the factory suggested between the grilles and the hood latch centre support. I have reduced the gap from .072, down to .050, a huge difference in appearance. While not .035, it is acceptable and changes how I feel about looking at the front of the car. It is now a 1/16 better than my SX.
So, thank you so much for posting your solution, this forum has been so helpful for problems that would otherwise go unsolved.
Allan, the gap you have looks perfect and must be what the engineers strived for in production. Your car must have been built with Wednesday parts and assembled on a Wednesday.

Allan R

Actually Brian, it started production on Friday April 7 at Lansing Fisher body works and was sent to Lansing final production on Monday April 10, where it rolled off the line on the same day.

The front stone shield on my car has been replaced, and so have both front fenders. Thank you for the compliment, although I'm not sure the gap on the car is really that good.

I'm very glad the technique that was suggested 66-3X2 442 worked to align your radiator support.

Fun71

Check your math. Looks like you are off by a factor of 10 in your fraction to decimal conversions.

A .072" (seventy two thousandths of an inch) gap would be mighty small gap.

Bunser

It's too bad a lot of members are spending an awful lot of time trying to achieve the "perfect" fit. I've seen more 70-72 Cutlii with gap "problems", than you could shake a stick at! (Very old saying meaning hundreds and hundreds.)
The fender door gap on these cars is excessive in my book, but this is the way they came from the factory.(Yes, I was there when mine came down off the car carrier.) Over the years I guess I learned to live with it and if it bothers others on their cars, I guess you'll be adding metal to your fenders or doors to get that perfect gap.
It's a shame members get called out when making suggestions as they are simply trying to help. Nobody's perfect on here and we all make mistakes. ( I could probably write a book on how not restore your 70 Cutlass!)
Now, back to the regular scheduled comments.

1972inpa

I am getting ready to assemble my grill/stoneguard etc. After reading all this it appears i will be having some alignment issues. Also the car hit a deer and bent the bumper a little before i got it. I am going to try and straighten the bumper as needed. Anyway, i am not sure i have all the parts and fasteners. Does someone have the page from assembly manual showing how it all goes together? Thanks, Jeff

Allan R

IDK if this is what you're looking for? Mirror the image for the other side components.

1972inpa

That is very helpful. Do you also have the page showing the grill, stone guard and light buckets?