Yesterday was a nice day here in SE VA, so I decided to drive my '72 Supreme to work. When I hit the key, I heard the ominous starter grind. So I immediately released the key and hit it again. This time it fired right up with no issue. When I got ready to leave work it did the exact same thing. I got home, shut it off, and hit the key, and it cranked up...no issues. After letting it set for a couple hours, I tried it, and again no issues...she fired right up. Now, mind you, the day before I took it to an appointment and had no issues whatsoever.

I've relegated to the fact I need to replace the starter, but my question is this; What could be the issue, because unless its just coincidence, it's only happening after setting for a long period of time, which tells me that it only does it when the engine is cooled off.

Also, while I admit I'm not an expert, the grind is caused by the starter not fully extending and engaging the flywheel. IOW its only extending partially and the gear teeth are rubbing against the flywheel. How is this possible? Either a starter engages or it doesn't, correct?

 

solonoid is not engaging fully. buy the best replacement solonoid you can find. used to be delco, but all their stuff is made out of the country now. check the summit catalog or maybe fusick has nos

 

It could be the starter drive, wrong bolts, loose bolts, in addition to possibly a solenoid.

 

Not to be a pain, but a couple of other things to check too:

1) battery/high amp wire (yeah, the thick ones…) dirt/corrosion
2) timing tweaked advanced a little too far, making starting harder
3) dirt/corrosion on the starter motor terminals

Chris

 

Yep. I also would replace the solinoid. But also while you are changing it, clean and free up the Bendix movement. You will see when it is apart how it works. clean it all up cuz if it is sticky it may bind. I think I would lube it lightly with a light spray, not regular grease cuz that could make it stick and get gummy after dirt, etc gets up there. I think if you free it all up and replace the solinoid then you will get it. Good Luck.

 

Dave - The starter isn’t a go or no go affair. The starter absolutely MUST have FULL cranking capability supplied via the electrical circuit. A PITA to remove the 200 pound starter but that’s what you are going to need to do. A decent long term benefit would be to follow the advice already given, R&R the solenoid, clean up the bendix, thoroughly clean every wire terminal end and attachment points in the starter circuit including your negative terminal from battery to block. Replace suspect wiring.

 

I replaced the starter almost a year ago with a Remy unit that I purchased from Rock Auto, so I was still under warranty. I will check the wiring when I swap it out.

 

If the bolts were loose, wouldn't it be a constant problem instead of intermittent?

 

Big & beefy solid wiring with clean terminals buddy.

 

All it takes is one loose nut, washer, etc. had this happen on sooooo… many pieces of equipment over the years….keep it tight.

 

My philosophy is that any time that 800 lb starter has to come out, I replace EVERYTHING in it - solenoid, starter drive, and brushes at a minimum.

 

My wife bought her 71 brand new and that car is at about 170k now. The starter has never been off the car nor has the engine been out, but I did replace the starter cable may moons ago. Am I on borrowed time ? Sometimes that OEM stuff lasts a long time, I guess. Same story on my 84 Ford Van but it has about 260k now.

 

All good advice and I appreciate the replies, but all the possible causes mentioned would point to it being a constant problem, correct? Because as I said in my initial post, it seems to only happen when the engine is cooled.

 

A starter drive going bad will initially be intermittent. A solenoid going bad will be intermittent due to the fact that the contact disc rotates every time you engage the solenoid. Sometimes the pitted areas will line up and make poor contact, sometimes they won't.

 

This can start as an intermittent problem to finally failing into a more permanent one and damaged flex plate.

 

But why only when the engine is cool?

 

But it seems to only be happening when the engine is cool.

 

Take a good look at the ring gear. Rotate it 360 degrees. There may be a worn spot. Check for worn teeth. I have found that generaly the flywheel will stop in 3 areas of the rotation, or close proximity to those 3 places. I suspect this is due to piston compression when the engine is turned off. If it lands on a bad spot you will get the grind. It may or may not be related to engine temp that make you think it is. It may just be coinsidence. If the problem is in the starter there are multiple possible reasons. Drive sticking on the armature shaft, excessive end play of the armature, Bad, worn,weak solenoid., low voltage to the S terminal, Bad drive, scored solenoid plunger, scored or smashed end on the soleniod moveable (rotating) contact shaft. This shaft is aluminium and can become scored along the travel length or flattened and mushroomed at the end. In any case look at the flywheel teeth when you take the starter out. If they are buggered up you may be able to get by if you file the sides of any offended teeth.

 

You don't have enough data to say it is only when cold.

 

How much data would I need to substantiate my hypothesis, and how would I go about collecting the data?

 

Dave - It's been >13+ hours since your first post. Why hasn't this issue been resolved?

 

Rock auto doesn't ship that fast.

 

Ok, so my "cool engine" theory is wrong. After letting it sit for two days, I just went out and pumped the gas then hit the key and she fired right up with no problem.

 

You'll be back...

 

??? Norm

 

...w/ the exact same issue.

 

Nope...gonna replace the starter.

 

I'm sorry but I fail to see the logic in replacing the starter. You said you just replaced the starter last year. Do as you please, but I fail to see the logic in replacing the starter. Not one mention of addressing the wiring, the amperage, the voltage, the terminal ends, etc. Sorry...if you'd like opinions you got plenty. I still fail to see your logic.

 

I'm gonna do all of that Norm, but not until I get the new starter. Since I gotta take it out to check the wiring anyway, why not do it with the new starter in hand just in case? Plus, I'm not gonna manhandle it any more than I have to.

 

Explain to me "why" you're replacing the starter. I'm suffering a brain fart here.

 

I'm not going to unless I have to.

 

So if I understand correctly, I should be able to do all of the necessary troubleshooting without removing the starter? Keep in mind I have headers so there's really no room to get to the connectors on the starter without dropping it down. So suppose everything checks out and everything is as it should be? I'm back to square one. Why not have a new starter on hand ready to go just in case? And if nothing else, I may just keep it for a spare.

 

Did you say starter was still under warrantee? If so go ahead and change it.

 

Yup...for another 7 days...lol. Already have another one coming from Rock Auto.

 

The most common issue with a faulting starter is the solenoid. An intermittent starter is almost always the result of a faulting solenoid. The number one reason a solenoid goes bad is the result of incorrect current. A large amount of current (250A - 350A) is required to spin the starter. You REQUIRE 12V and a dedicated 300A. A starter & solenoid less than one year old should easily be able to handle this load. But don’t take my word for it - find out WHY electrical current is the number one cause of solenoid/starter failure. Those pesky electrons.

 

The less work I have to do, the better. So how do I measure the current Norm?

 

Clamp on ammeter.

 

Ok, but current has to be flowing to measure it, correct?

 

John is correct you need an amp clamp. But, I believe you’re missing the major point. If the ONLY way you can check your starter electrical cables, terminal ends and attachment points is to drop your headers and remove your starter then go for it. The ABSOLUTE first place to evaluate is your battery ground to block (-) cable. No loose bolts clean and healthy. Exact same for the (+) cable. Inspect the cables themselves. Cut them open at the ends. You can also measure resistance to get a notion but the POINT is to FIRST validate electrical cabling. This is not that difficult. Current flows through wires, check the wires in your starter circuitry. The ground is achieved via the starter attachment bolts. Are they tight and clean? Starter terminal (+) cable securely attached and clean? You need solid connections with good cabling. That is the point.

 

You know those big thick wires that go to ground and to the battery? There’s a reason they’re BIG. Imagine you have 50 copper wire strands in a cable but 30 are corroded. Imagine you have a loose nut, corroded nut on the (+) terminal of your starter. Electricity does not flow through air and it does not flow when bolts, nuts, wires are loose and corroded, those are simple facts.