kevin.horton

I know you all are busy watching football today, (Go Chiefs, not playing today, played Thursday), but was wondering if someone wanted to help decode this car. The numbers are as follows:

VIN = 3J57K2R108172

Cowl Tag =

ST 72 34257 R 0275 BDY
TR 972 A51 43 6 PNT

The only numbers I could see stamped on the block were right above the exhaust manifold.

These are CFD 409 147

Not sure where else I need to look?

Thanks in advance.

rcorrigan5

I'll give it a go.

VIN: 3J57K2R108172

3 = GM division = Oldsmobile
J = model series = Cutlass Supreme
57 = body type = hardtop coupe
K = engine = 350cid/4bbl with single exhaust
2 = model year = 1972
R = assembly plant = Arlington TX
108172 = assembly plant sequential number

TRIM TAG:

ST 72 = style/model year = 1972
34257: 3 = GM division = Oldsmobile, 42 = model series = Cutlass Supreme, 57 = body type = hardtop coupe
R = assembly plant = Arlington TX
0275 BDY = Fisher body number (has no relation to the VIN)
TR 972 = interior color (I don't have this code in my book but I think it is green; you can find it at www.wildaboutcars.com)
A51 is an option = strato bucket seats
43 6 PNT = lower body color (43 =Pinehurst green) and upper body color (6 = ? Are you sure the 6 isn't really a G? G would be a green vinyl top)

Randy C.

kevin.horton

Thanks Randy, sounds about right, the car was originally green, (it was repainted silver by Dad in the mid 2000's, still has the dark green interior.... no vinyl top on it now, but has the trim for the vinyl top on it. Assuming that the 350 that is in it right now is the one that came from the factory. Anyone know where I can find the build sheet? Reason I am asking, it has a louvered hood. I am wondering if this was an option when it was ordered, or if someone threw it on later. I know this is a 442 hood, but could you order it as an option n the Supreme? Thanks again guys.

rustyroger

You might find a build sheet tucked into the seat upholstery or on top of the gas tank, maybe inside one of the doors.
You may also find there isn't one in the car at all, a PO may have taken it out, or it might never have been left in the car in the first place.
The build sheet was to inform the guys on the production lines, sometimes it would be put in the trash at the factory, sometimes it would be left in the car, normally around the last pieces to be fitted to the car such as the gas tank or seats.

Roger.

rcorrigan5

If you look on your engine block, there should be a pad on the left forward side of the engine block, just below #1 cylinder. On it should be stamped what is called the VIN derivative. If it says 32R108172, then the engine is original to your car. The pad is sometimes hard to see if you have power steering as the bracket is directly over the pad. Plus, if the pad is dirty, then it makes it even harder to see. I've used a mirror and a flashlight and have been able to read the VIN derivative on some cars. That same VIN derivative should be stamped on your transmission if it is also original to the car.

Randy C.

lemoldsnut

I have found build sheets on 72's under the package tray. could see them if I laid in the trunk and looked up at it

kevin.horton

OK, thanks fellas, but you guys don't know if this hood could have been ordered as an option from the factory? I had some dude ask me the other day what type of hood it was and whether it was original to the car. As far as the other info, thanks again.

lemoldsnut

If it has a ram air hood it could have been an option. W25 is the ram air hood option. Could be had on any Cutlass line car in 72. Also only 4 bolts to put one on. Check the hood lock brackets on the core support and see if they are original and correctly installed like original. Does it have a ram air air cleaner? With all the correct hardware?

vette442

I've owned at least seven '72 Supreme hardtops - two of the four speed cars (one 455, one 350) had the metal finned hood louvers, the rest of them did not (350 automatic, 455 4 speed and 455 automatic cars). No rhyme or reason. Supreme convertibles seem to have them more often but not always.

My 350 4 speed car with louvers was an Arlington build, as was one of the 350 automatics without them. Arlington cars have full 8.5" x 11" build sheets if you can find one. The top of the gas tank is a good place to look for one from that plant. The package tray is a great spot to check on Fremont cars. Under the seats is a good spot for Linden cars, as well as for Lansing broadcast cards.

Terry

kevin.horton

No, it doesn't have the ram air hood, it has the louvered panels on each side of the hood. I just wasn't sure if this hood was original to the car, as I believe that it is a 442 hood. There was just a guy at the car show the other day asking if that was a stock hood on the car or if someone had put it on there, and I didn't know how to answer him. I felt pretty stoopid. But, this is my first Olds, so that's my excuse.

vette442

I think almost every Cutlass 'S' fastback got this hood in 1972, not just W29 442s, although only W29s got the hood pinstripe trim. Like I said, I've had two '72 Supreme hardtops that had louvered hoods as well, and they were definitely the originals. This hood wasn't a separately listed option that a buyer could order.

kevin.horton

thanks vette442....problem is that my Cutlass is not an 'S' fastback, it's a notchback. But you telling me that it wasn't an option tells me that it was more than likely added later.

vette442

Read my two prior posts - two of my '72 notchback Supremes had the louvered hoods - they are both absolutely the original hoods. I did deep digging into the original paint on the undersides when I first bought the cars. There's a chance that yours is also original - there doesn't appear to be any rhyme or reason why some '72 Supremes have them. Do some underhood investigation to see if you can confirm any traces of original paint in the same color that you car was born with. Most Supremes did not get this hood, but some did.

kevin.horton

OK, thanks....I must have missed that part. I will check under the hood but it sounds as if it's maybe the original. I just didn't know how to answer that guy the other day.

Octania

409147 head [not block] castings will have a large "7" on the corner near the #1 or #8 spark plug if 1971 issue, and a large "7" with a much smaller subscript "A" if 1972 issue.

The standard issue 71-2 350 heads.

Allan R

The 1972 Assembly Manual states the louvered hoods were an option for the 4267 models (verts) right from the factory. But, if they are on a CS 4257, it's my opinion that they were either added at the dealer, by special order at the factory, or by a previous owner. For some strange reason a lot of people tend to call these '442' hoods when they aren't, except on 35W29 cars that have the special script piercing. A minor point of distinction I'm sure not many really notice.

In 72 only Cutlass S came standard with the louvered hoods as noted in the dealers ordering guide. (see "Identification" item: Hood - louvered hood grills.), although the AM also states this hood was also available for the 3287, 3677 and 4267 (and W29) as well. W29 hood louvers were always black; the other models were coded to match the lower body color.

wmachine

Yes, Supremes did get produced with louvered hoods, as the Supreme converts with the 442 options got the lovers (yes, painted black versions).
And option Y78 put louvered hoods on the 3287 "regular" Cutlass Coupes.

Allan, I know there is not any documentation (that I've found so far) that allows them to be on Supremes other than the aforementioned, and that is why Terry say "with no rhyme or reason". But understand that Terry is an expert on these cars and has good reason to believe that there are indeed Supremes that have them from the factory. There are quite enough of them to just dismiss them as not possible.
Terry, there are a couple things that may have happened to lead to Supremes having them. And running out of the correct hoods is certainly plausible in this case. The ***'y Manual shows there were 6 versions of the louvered hood. One of the key features in the differences in all the hoods (louvered or not) are the vents for the AC. (There is also a curious reference to the 442 hoods being pierced, not welded.)
With these variations in hoods, it is conceivable that the need (for example) for AC hoods may have been the cause for louvered hoods to go on Supremes. It would stand to reason that they would put a louvered AC hood on a Supreme before they would put on a regular hood w/o the A/C vents. They were certainly a direct fit with no other mods needed.
I'd look for a pattern of time period and/or plant usage if this were the case.
Also, possible fall out from the UAW strike in '72?

allyolds68

Kurt

The UAW strike was Sept of 70

Allan R

Very reasonable and acceptable position. I have no issues with that explanation.

You're right. Now I see the 4267 has that option for a louvered hood. I'll go back and amend the error in the previous post. AM's are a good source for documentation and 'reality checks'.

I, however disagree that the 'standard' hood for the CS would be pre-empted for a louvered hood (personal opinion - not able to prove this) although you could be right - it might depend on hood availability at some production lines or customer/dealer orders. I've seen many CS 4257 models that have louvered hoods even though that hood doesn't appear to be on the menu for 4257's. I guess there are a lot of CS owners who really like that louvered look. Can't blame them either - it's quite good looking. One thing I constantly hear people referring to the louvered hoods as is "442" hoods. The only one that I'm willing to accept as being part of the 442 is the ones for the W29 option and Oldsmobile script on the front.

I'm going to suggest to you (my theory) that the term 'pierced' is a reference to describe the holes that appear on the W29 hood and accept the Oldsmobile script. It makes sense since all the other hoods wouldn't be part of the W29. It seems to be a subtle distinction given to designate that particular hood.

All the other hoods for f85, Cutlass, Cutlass S and Cutlass Supreme all state "welded'. So I'm thinking the hood description simply means the upper and lower sections were spot welded together? I noted that on the W25 hoods the term in the hood description shows "Bonded" as it would be metal and fibreglass glued together. What do you think?

Hee hee hee, I think you meant the UAW strike of 70 delayed the intended 72 lineup, resulting in it staying pretty much the same as 71. We both know 72 was originally supposed to be the unveiling of what we know as the 73 models.

allyolds68

Yeah, I went back and re-read it and I think that's what he meant. Personally I think there weren't any rules in 72 except use up all this old 71 crap that didn't get sold

kevin.horton

Sorry guys, I didn't mean to start a war...I just wasn't sure if that hood on my Olds was stock....remember that I am a new Olds owner and don't know much history on these cars. Basically, I just wanted to know if it was factory, because someone asked me. That's why I asked about the build sheet, to see if maybe it was on there.

Allan R

Kevin - no worries. What's happening is just a side discussion about the hoods and possible related production issues, which is actually related to permalink 3. There's no war, just an interesting discussion we all benefit from. If you'd prefer us to discuss it elsewhere, I can ask a moderator to remove the discussion and create a different thread for it.

We're all getting along here though and everyone's being respectful, so it's up to you.

kevin.horton

Allan, nope....it's all good if everyone is playing nice. I appreciate everyone's input on the subject.

wmachine

That was my suggestion, that availability was the cause. The only point in making the suggestion is that it may help find the answer. Part of the fact-finding process, to look in the right place for answers

Certainly plausible, but "welded" appears to be use vs "pierced". I'd want to take a close look at the 2 different hoods to see of there were any other differences in construction.


I know that was a bit of a stretch, but again, just throwing things out as a starting point for getting answers.

rcorrigan5

Kevin,
It's been my experience that most everyone plays nice here. That's why I like this web site so much. And the discussion on '72 hoods - I don't even own a '72 (mine are '68 and '69) but I find that discussion most interesting. There are lots of little details that go into each production year that aren't printed anywhere but yet people know about them. And that's what is so good about this site - there are a lot of people here that know those details. So, even though I know very little about the '70-'72 models, this technical side discussion is very interesting to me! Just thought I'd throw in my two cents worth!

Randy C.

Allan R

Kurt, when I looked at the Assembly Manual I got the impression that the only real significance on the 'welded' hoods was the distinction of whether they would have faux louvers or no rear vents for AC cars. What's also interesting is that in 1971, all the A body hoods had rear vents regardless of AC or not. Removing the vents on 72 AC cars must have been a reaction to something, or a change in the AC (just guesses) but it's interesting to note that feature in one year but not the other.

I think it's reasonable to conclude that all the metal hoods were welded together, but may have had different tops for the various combinations needed for production. I noted with interest that the bottom structure of the metal hoods of all the 71/72 hoods I've seen also has the holes where the hood tie downs (for W25) passed through on the way to the tie downs bolted to the rad support - but that's a different discussion.

My comment about 'piercing' for emblems or script is based on the observation in the Assembly Manuals showing the hole locations for the various trim that would be fastened to the fenders or deck lids. Have a look at pages 76/77 in the 72 AM (section 11) that show the fenders. I think we can agree that all the fenders were identical on initial production and that each one was drilled or pierced for the emblems that were required for the car trim. That's pretty much why I was suggesting the term 'pierced' on the 35W29 hood was simply to distinguish the hood.

I realize this speculation is subject to scrutiny. In support of the 'generic' fender theory though I draw attention to the tens of thousands of replacement fenders that were sold through dealers or to body shops by GM. I bought a new set of OEM fenders for my car in 1985 and they were delivered without any piercings. When I asked why, the part folks said that fenders would be drilled at the shops to match the car being repaired. In a way it's kind of like a generic fender for todays cars, but the difference being emblems now are taped on.

rustyroger

X2, and my olds is an '87 H body.