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Well, I stepped out to the garage yesterday for the first time since we left for our vacation and was rudely knocked back to reality.
Backstory..the day we left, I drove the Olds to work. It was the first drive anywhere since putting the new Qjet on, and seemed to do okay until I made the turn into the parking lot. Being off throttle and turning almost 270°, the car idled so low it almost died. It did this a couple more times as I was backing into my spot. So, I grabbed my screwdriver from my desk and adjusted it before leaving. Well, to get it so it wouldn't die..I ultimately had the screw dialed in so much it became a driving issue as now it wasn't coming off throttle. I got it home and went back and forth a couple times, setting it where the RPM should be..but once it went into gear, it'd slowly stall out. Finally I just got it in the garage and we headed out to our vacation.
I had noticed the fuel line was crimped, and figured while that may not be the culprit, it's worth replacing anyway..so I ordered a new one from Inline along with an analog dwell/tach meter off of ebay (still need to figure that out).
I went out to address the tach/dwell meter and figured I'd do the easy thing and change the fuel line first...well, 3 hours later I still have a leak at the pump, and the car will not idle. At this point, my sole goal is to get it running/not leaking so I can check the tach/dwell and make necessary adjustments. I can't send it to the dyno if I can't get it to run long enough to get it on a trailer.
Last edited by brotherGood; Aug 19, 2024 at 05:43 AM.
This is 1 of the things that I think about when I'm working on our car. I originally took it off the road in the end of 1987. Did all of the mechanical work and then life happened with kids, job, etc. Now that I have started working on the car. I have decided to replace all of the fuel and brake lines with the stainless steel option from them.
Describe the leak in more detail, coming from a flare connection? Obviously the leak needs to be fixed first and immediately.
Does it smell like it’s rich? Is there fuel weeping from upper carb? Is there a louder than normal vacuum sound? Did you check vacuum reading?
(Edit - having thought this was a more spontaneous development)
It sounds to me like you may have a needle/seat/float issue, not to exclude a little piece of junk fouling the needle & seat, but not a whole lot to go on.
You can get 3/8" fuel line at the auto parts store. Get the nickel/copper line because it's easier to bend and flare. Hopefully you can get your money back for the one you ordered online.
Your timing & A/F mixture ratio most likely requires corrective action via a proper tune-up. There's nothing wrong w/ an analog dwell/tachometer meter, rather simple device to operate. You can set dwell w/o engine running to the point where dwell can be adjusted enough the engine will start/run so you can establish correct timing for tune-up (which it sounds like the car is in need of).
Hopefully you own the 1969 GM Oldsmobile CSM which dictates specific specifications required for tune-up (assuming this discussion involves a 1969 4-4-2). It is vital you follow the tune-up protocol:
Dwell influences Timing. Timing does not influence Dwell - ensure your dwell is set correctly before adjusting timing & note you disconnect, plug distributor advance vacuum prior to timing then reconnect distributor vacuum advance after setting timing (prior to setting correct A/F mixture ratio).
Several things to consider:
You can't simply install a Quadrajet onto any engine & expect it to function properly w/o dialing in the A/F mixture ratio. This should have been done when you installed the new Quadrajet. It requires proper A/F mixture ratio to function/operate correctly.
If timing was not set correctly there's a good chance the points have been beaten up pretty good. If the points (ignition timing) was not established w/ specific parameters defined in the CSM, there's also a likely chance your spark plugs have fouled, as well.
I'd pull all spark plugs & evaluate spark plugs - burning rich or burning lean, fouled electrode(s) corroded? Pull the distributor contact points & evaluate for corrosion, fouling, pitting, etc. Evaluate distributor (ignition) rotor for pitting, carbon build-up, corrosion & do same for distributor cap. Honestly, I'd start w/ new spark plugs, new contact points, new distributor contact points condenser, new rotor & new distributor cap to ensure the tune-up process can be performed to CSM specification(s). Best to use a vacuum gauge to establish proper A/F mixture ratio after establishing Dwell & Timing. The importance of following the CSM specifications cannot be overstated. There may be a tune-up specification(s) label on the fan shroud of your vehicle specific to your engine. If so, it will also list details of the tune-up specifications contained w/in the CSM. You should own an engine vacuum gauge to dial-in your A/F mixture ratio.
After you take corrective action regarding fuel leak & after establishing correct Dwell/Timing, you should be able to sustain a rock-steady vacuum reading (A/F mixture ratio) somewhere between 17"Hg - 21"Hg on your vacuum gauge. Follow this diagram. You should be able to perform the very first test (top LH corner of diagram) w/o fail. Note details regarding possible corrective action(s). Good Luck.
The leak is coming from the connection at the pump, but seems to be coming from where the line goes through the fitting..almost as if the the line isn't seating all the way even though the fitting is tight. My hope is to get that squared away, so that I can next work on getting it back running. I'm not sure why all of the sudden it's having this issue, as all that was changed was carb & base gasket. I'm not ruling out a vacuum leak, especially with how loud it is compared to the Jet QJet (especially during fast idle) but I'd like to get it running so I can spray around the base gasket to verify. I did put a vacuum gauge on it when I first installed/fired it up & noticed that not only had the engine developed a "gallop" but the gauge was also fluctuating and it averaged a little less than what I had been showing (normally around 9", was fluctuating between 5"-8".
I haven't pulled plugs yet, my goal was to address the fuel line (only reason I changed it was due to a kink) and then check dwell/rpm since I can't get an accurate read with my digital tach on the timing light. Once I can get it running again on it's own and can verify no leaks/dwell/RPM are correct, then I'll feel a bit better about it. I'm just baffled at why all of the sudden it won't run (even before the leak)
Did you bend and flare a 3/8" line from scratch or did you use a custom fit one?
I bought a prebent from Inline Tube. The last prebent line was from The Right Stuff, I just didn't have the information in front of me at the time I ordered the Inline Tube line.
I bought a prebent from Inline Tube. The last prebent line was from The Right Stuff, I just didn't have the information in front of me at the time I ordered the Inline Tube line.
Okay, I did the same thing. As I recall, I had to use a handheld tube bender to worry it into place and I had concerns that the force that it took to get it oriented correctly might cause the flare to not seat well. This turned out not to be an issue, at least not so far.
I also had to use an extra layer of teflon tape on the threads of the 90° brass fitting from the pump to get it clocked properly.
No sealer, I've heard mixed reviews. The fitting on the pump side is not brass, though the TRS line was. I've done some "manipulating" and it lines up well..just doesn't seem like it seats right (the flair into the nut)
I'm just baffled at why all of the sudden it won't run (even before the leak)
You had/have significant departure from normal vacuum operating range w/ significant wavering of vacuum gauge needle between 5"Hg - 8"Hg. Low vacuum readings easily yield a no start, rough idle, weak performing engine. Couple this w/ incorrect spark plugs, incorrect spark plug gap, incorrect timing + driving in this condition for extended periods the engine can quickly succumb to a no start rough idle condition - points get pitted, plugs become fouled, rotor arcing, plugs arcing, etc., etc.
EDIT: If you have not already done so, you should perform both a dry & wet compression test on this engine. Additionally, don't rule out a intake manifold gasket leak.
Last edited by Vintage Chief; Aug 19, 2024 at 09:43 AM.
Back to the fuel line (should this be two different threads?): If you still have the TRS fitting, try that. Brass is more malleable and perhaps a little more forgiving. If it doesn't improve matters, try going back and using some thread sealer.
Back to the fuel line (should this be two different threads?): If you still have the TRS fitting, try that. If it doesn't improve matters, try going back and using some thread sealer.
I ordered a new line from TRS. I thought about putting the old one back on (and still may if the new TRS line gives me fits) but I've had hit or miss results with Inline. I just wish I knew that when I ordered it while on vacation.
You had/have significant departure from normal vacuum operating range w/ significant wavering of vacuum gauge needle between 5"Hg - 8"Hg. Low vacuum readings easily yield a no start, rough idle, weak performing engine. Couple this w/ incorrect spark plugs, incorrect spark plug gap, incorrect timing + driving in this condition for extended periods the engine can quickly succumb to a no start rough idle condition - points get pitted, plugs become fouled, rotor arcing, plugs arcing, etc., etc.
EDIT: If you have not already done so, you should perform both a dry & wet compression test on this engine. Additionally, don't rule out a intake manifold gasket leak.
But that's the thing, nothing has been changed aside from carb/base gasket. I'm not ruling out a vacuum leak, but nothing changed with regard to ignition/timing. Ive got new plugs to throw in there, I just need it running first so I can verify we're at least back to where it was when I took the old carburetor off.
I ordered a new line from TRS. I thought about putting the old one back on (and still may if the new TRS line gives me fits) but I've had hit or miss results with Inline. I just wish I knew that when I ordered it while on vacation.
Same for me. I replaced fuel pump>carb line from Inline. I'm like WTH. Did I order incorrect line? Nope. I had to manage some clever shenanigans for it to fit correctly.
But that's the thing, nothing has been changed aside from carb/base gasket. I'm not ruling out a vacuum leak, but nothing changed with regard to ignition/timing. Ive got new plugs to throw in there, I just need it running first so I can verify we're at least back to where it was when I took the old carburetor off.
I understand (I think). You have vacuum advance hooked up? Vacuum canister functioning? Those are probably silly questions because inherently you have very poor vacuum. What's your mechanical advance set to?
I understand (I think). You have vacuum advance hooked up? Vacuum canister functioning? Those are probably silly questions because inherently you have very poor vacuum. What's your mechanical advance set to?
Mechanical was only showing like 12-14 degrees (I'd have to look back as to which one). I'm hearing more and more that while the distributor was rebuilt, that doesn't mean it was correct. That's why I finally broke down and bought the dwell meter, so I can start verifying at least that is correct. I'm running 18 initial at the moment, which is way more than I'd like but it gets the total timing at least in the ballpark. This is one more reason Im wanting to take it to a dyno. I can run tests and give my best guess..but I'm no pro.
As far as compression tests..I've not done one since the cam was degreed over the winter. It was a good bit off (Something dumb like 17 degrees IIRC)
Last edited by brotherGood; Aug 19, 2024 at 11:04 AM.
But that's the thing, nothing has been changed aside from carb/base gasket. I'm not ruling out a vacuum leak, but nothing changed with regard to ignition/timing. Ive got new plugs to throw in there, I just need it running first so I can verify we're at least back to where it was when I took the old carburetor off.
That's just the thing. Much can have changed if the engine was driven for extended periods of time w/ low/incorrect vacuum, incorrect dwell (incorrectly adjusted contact points or poorly manufactured contact points), bad/faulty distributor condenser, wrong spark plugs, incorrectly gap on spark plugs - it can all add up and it can all present itself in short-order. You'll get it eventually. Easy to throw suggestions to you from an armchair, even tougher to diagnose across the Internet.
That's just the thing. Much can have changed if the engine was driven for extended periods of time w/ low/incorrect vacuum, incorrect dwell (incorrectly adjusted contact points or poorly manufactured contact points), bad/faulty distributor condenser, wrong spark plugs, incorrectly gap on spark plugs - it can all add up and it can all present itself in short-order. You'll get it eventually. Easy to throw suggestions to you from an armchair, even tougher to diagnose across the Internet.
Yeah, that's a snowball that while I can make sense of in my head, I'm not sure I could begin to type it all out..ha!
There are multiple carburetor mounting gaskets, did you get/use the correct one? Sometimes it's the simple things that get us.
felpro gasket, one of the thicker ones. I don't have the part# in front of me, but it looked the same as the one that came off other than the fact it had individual holes for the primary plates rather than being completely open.
I kept the old gasket and thought about just reusing it. I still may, honestly.
Have you checked your PCV valve? They can act like a massive vacuum leak when they go bad. And they can go bad, without changing anything else.
I have not..but as of now I'm just running basic troubleshooting and looking at things that I just changed. Granted right now my main focus is to fix the fuel leak. I went ahead and put the old line on this evening while the dog was outside emptying his bladder, and noticed that the old line now leaks in the same spot the new one is.
I let the dog in the house and got cleaned up and was texting back and forth with Pops and he brought up the fact that it could be a small piece of debris or something on the pump where the fitting goes in..like maybe when I took the old line off it burred the thread or something fell down in the threads that is keeping it from sealing. I hadn't thought about it, but it gives me a place to start. I'm not sure the likelihood, but seeing that a known good line is now leaking in the same spot, it's worth the shot.
Pre-bent and home made lines always need tweaking.
Step one, the carb should be loose on the intake.
Step 2 snug the line at the pump.
Step 3 bend the carb end of the tube until it fits like a glove then tighten it all down.
Dont over torque the Qjet. The gasket should have the plastic inserts in it to prevent throttle plate warp and over torque.
Pre-bent and home made lines always need tweaking.
Step one, the carb should be loose on the intake.
Step 2 snug the line at the pump.
Step 3 bend the carb end of the tube until it fits like a glove then tighten it all down.
Dont over torque the Qjet. The gasket should have the plastic inserts in it to prevent throttle plate warp and over torque.
Originally Posted by BangScreech4-4-2
This might help. Never occurred to me.
^^Exactly^^
I've found removal of the carburetor (letting it just sit on the intake manifold) with both ends of the metal line loosely connected to both the carburetor (not mounted) & the fuel pump provides a better opportunity to "persuade" the carburetor to seat back onto the intake manifold by "tweaking" the metal hard line just enough to gain some needed maneuvering.
How about a picture of your fuel line where it goes into your pump? The '69 fuel pump should have a brass adaptor that screws onto the pump pressure port and receives the pump end of the hard line. It basically creates a 90 degree junction. They are notorious for being a PITA to seal because you have to get it tight enough on the pump to seal yet get the orientation correct for the hard line. It sounds like this is the piece that's causing your leak. Show a picture of what you have.
Note you can get a new brass coupler piece from InLine. They're cheap and have good threads and seating faces. Aftermarket pre-bent fuel lines for the '69 400 engine SUCK. I don't care who the manufacturer is, they all seem to be bent wrong. Ask me how I know.
I'd recommend a new brass coupler and following the directions above regarding keeping everything loose to align prior to tightening. No teflon tape on the flare fittings but OK for the thread on the coupler to pump. Also as stated above, you may have to go pretty thick with the tape to get the 90 degree coupler tight enough to seal at the pump and line up right for the line.
Do this FIRST to stop your fuel leak and then move on to diagnosing your vacuum/low power problem.
Check for vacuum leaks around the base of the carburetor while its running with a can of carb cleaner. If you have a vacuum leak it will increase the rpms. You could also check with a vacuum gauge. I recently chased a similar issue and found my carb base plate and vacuum fitting on the back of the carb had leaks, thus not allowing it to idle.
Well, pops came over and we tackled the fuel leak. He noticed a couple of burrs in where the nut threads into the pump, so he cleaned it out and put the ILT line on and the leak seems to be fixed. I did put the old base gasket back on..the new one was sealed down in one spot, so it makes me wonder of it wasn't sealed in other spots.
Once it was out of the garage, we got the timing light with tach out mainly so I could show him the skip, but it didn't seem to be skipping anymore. So we dialed the RPM in the ballpark (the electronic still jumps around a tad, but nowhere near where it was the other day) and checked vacuum. I am currently hovering between 9-11"..thats the most it's had yet.
Now that it's not leaking & running on it's own..I feel confident I can dial it in a bit more. I'm still going to schedule it in on the dyno, but if I can at least be confident it'll make it to work and back, that's a win based off of last week.
If all of this trouble started when you changed the carburator that's where you should start. Put the old base gasket back on see what happens. Why was the carb changed in the first place?
Is it a Quadra Jet?
If yes bring a selection of primary springs rods & jets, A selection of secondary rods, and a secondary cam or two. Spare NGK spark plugs, centrifugal timing weights stops & springs... if you want to maximize your dynamometer time.
Hopefully, you have an adjustable travel vacuum can on the distributor.
If it's not a QJ bring whatever selection of jets rods & springs are required to super-tune the carb.
I posted this to another (similar) thread but has merit here, as well.
Cliff enjoys talking - I've spoke w/ Cliff several times over the years. You might also examine these/this kit(s). I bought one years ago - served me well, trays kept getting filled more & more over the years until I sold mine to a member who purchased a Quadrajet from me.
I'm still stumped as to why you have so little vacuum.
I don't understand either, but at this point it is what it is. Short of yanking the engine and tearing it apart, I'm not sure what other avenues to chase it.
The carb that was on was a Jet 32002. It wasn't a bad piece, but an opportunity presented itself to pickup a correct Qjet, with correct date code..and being a numbers matching car, I took it. The Jet carb was way too rich, and my understanding in talking to Qjet guys, is that there's no telling which "kit" will have what's needed because the Jet carburetors are a conglomeration of many different pieces. At least with the new carb, I know what I need to look for when tracking parts.
Call Cliff !
He will not only tell you what to do but he will sell you the parts to do it.
He has built me some fantastic Q jets over the years.
He doesn't do rebuilds any more but he will walk you through it.
I went out after church today to just do a bit more fine tuning now that it's running. The first thing on the list was to replace the AC line that is cracked with one I bought from another member here. Easy on/off..no biggie. I fire the car up, pull it out of the garage and just turn the AC on. I know its not charged so I don't expect anything, but I've never even seen the compressor run. So, checked that box..no air movement inside, whatever..Ill dig into that later.
by this time, the car has run long enough its up to temperature, so I start getting the tools out. I plug the vacuum gauge into the port on the intake, and just look down to grab my light and see fluid. After the double take, I see that the PS pressure line has ruptured. Sure enough, as I put things back together to put the car back in the garage, it's whining like mad.
I'm glad it did it where and when it did, but I can't help but just laugh at my luck lately.
So, a new line will be here Tuesday and we'll try again next weekend. So much for the labor day car shows though..but whatever.
I'll see myself out.........
