coldfire

I've seen several people recommend picking up a shop manual for reference

Looking for my 1970 Cutlass S

Is this the right one? There are a few out there, can't tell which you guys are talking about for sure

jaunty75

That's it. That's the factory "chassis service manual," which is commonly abbreviated "CSM." For completeness, you also want the 1970 Fisher Body manual, which covers many parts of the car that aren't in the CSM.


http://www.ebay.com/itm/1970-Fisher-...02568a&vxp=mtr

Professur

Or get the two of them on one disk.http://www.ebay.com/itm/OLDSMOBILE-1...item35ab805764

I got the one for my '81 cruiser from him and it included a third manual, the electrical diagnostic manual ... well worth the money IMO

jaunty75

Electronic versions of service manuals are ok, but I think paper is preferred, especially if you're going to spend money, anyway, if you want to actually have the manual out in the garage with you.


Also, and I forgot to mention this in my first posting above, both the 1970 Oldsmobile CSM and Fisher Body Manual are available in electronic format for free over at wildaboutcars.com, which you must be a member of but which is free to join.

coldfire

Thanks for the confirmation, just made the buy over on the 'bay and picked up the Fisher Body Manual too, thanks for the heads up!

I did see the CD versions too. I personally prefer a physical book over digital, but that's just me!



Now I gotta wait for the mailman...

Professur

I also like the ease of paper, but I don't have a single paper manual that's not a mess of greasy fingerprints. With the digital copy, i can print off the sheets I need, let them get as messy as they will, and use them as firelighters afterwards. There's also the advantage of printing them one sided ... you never need to turn a page anymore. Just lay them out in a single layer.

tecar442

Get yourself a factory assembly manual also. Available in most parts catalogs. OPGI, Fusick, Y1, etc. You'll use it a lot.

MDchanic

But why would you buy a disc with the manual on it when you could download the same information for free, and then, if you really want to, burn it to a disc?

A number of Assembly Manuals are available for free, as well.

- Eric

Professur

Call me weird, but taking it like that just sits wrong with me. It's one thing to download public domain books, but GM hasn't surrendered the copyright for any manual. The guy I bought from claims to have licensed the product from GM. If he's lying, it's on his head.

tecar442

Maybe it's just me but I find a paper copy is much easier to use when you're out in the garage.

MDchanic

Wow, Prof., you just really insulted Kurt Shubert ("wmachine" on this forum) and Bob Gerometta, who have poured countless hours of their time and energy into licensing, scanning and indexing a huge trove of automotive material at WildAboutCars.com.

The rest of us will gratefully take advantage of their efforts, but if you want to pay scammers on eBay, that's your prerogative. "Scammer Welfare," I guess you could call it.

- Eric

Bluevista

How is a person that sells licensed CD copies of GM manuals online a "scammer"? Don't they have a right to sell them as long as it's done legally?? On Wild About Cars it says you can use the material for your own personal use but to go to Faxon's Auto Literature if you want a personal copy of the literature. That would make Faxon's "scammers" too if you want to apply the same flawed logic.

Professur

I don't recall doing any such thing. I gave you my personal position on why I personally don't download licensed material for free. If they've licensed the material for public distribution, that's wonderful. I didn't read any such declaration on the website .. maybe I missed it in the fine print. As for the CD I bought, he clearly states in the ad that he's licensed the material, and that's also clearly printed on the CD case. If you think he's a scammer, feel free to report him to the authorities ... let me know and I'll be happy to bear witness

I also didn't suggest anywhere in my post that there's anything wrong with other people doing it. i clearly said it sits wrong with me ... i also don't drive 10kph over the limit just because everyone else thinks it ok. I do lots of things that people think are unusual like that.

MDchanic

Sloppy research, Professor.

From WildAboutCars:



If you prefer to pay money to a profiteer who may or may not be legitimately licensed, rather than a non-profit that essentially mimics the concept of a lending library, then, please, don't let me stand in your way.



Ohhhh... You're THAT guy.

I sincerely hope you confine yourself to the right lane when dragging your feet.

- Eric

Professur

MD, your own post makes my point for me. They hold a 'library' license .. i wanted a personal copy. I think you fail to understand what you've posted. Printing a copy from their website is the same as borrowing a book from the library and photocopying it to have your own copy. And as their own website states clearly ... GM will litigate ... I highly doubt they're letting a guy sell thousands of illegal copies of every manual they've ever printed on a public space like fleebay without getting a lawyer after him.


As for what lane I drive in ... slow traffic is supposed to stay right. Speeders are supposed to get tickets. Personally, I drive a car comfortable enough that I'm not in any rush to get where I'm going, and plan well enough that I'm never in a hurry because i'm late. I greatly enjoy laughing at people who lose their mind trying to pass me, only to be waiting at the next stop light when I get there. But I do feel a certain sadness for them too.

jaunty75

Again, the wording about this on the wildaboutcars.com website:


These manuals were purchased from a licensed vendor and only portions may be viewed and printed by any an Auto History Preservation Society Library Member, to be used for research or repair on your vehicle or for educational use only.

YOU MAY NOT MAKE COPIES FOR RESALE UNDER THE LICENSING AGREEMENT. General Motors has made it very clear that they will litigate against anyone who does not abide by this agreement. We support GM's position.


I interpret this to mean that you can download and printout a few pages or maybe a section for your own use in repairing your car. The idea is that you do NOT download the entire manual. That would violate the spirit of the agreement.

GM will only get involved if you download the material and then turn around and try to sell it. GM would probably not even be aware if you downloaded the entire manual and kept it for yourself or just gave away electronic or printed-out copies.


Also, I don't understand MDchanic's comment:

What? Every ebay seller is a scammer? This is a bit over the top. There are plenty of legitimate ebay sellers.

I would not buy a CD version of a service manual on ebay or from anyone else because, like many, I prefer having a paper copy. The paper copies I've purchased on ebay have been just fine. Used, sometimes well used, but clean and legitimate.

Run to Rund

You can avoid the entire hassle by buying the original manual either from ebay or another source. I got almost all the years in nice condition from mid 50s to about 72 from a retired mechanic in the mid 70s. I guess it is time to sell them, except one set of chassis and body for the 66, since I don't expect to buy more Oldsmobiles. I am focused on the 66 for personal use, and have a couple of them. I was tempted by the 75 Starfire on Craigslist in Chicago, but resisted.

MDchanic

Obviously, our interpretations of plain English text don't count for anything, so I am not offering any more of them.

I am waiting for the copyright lawyer who helps out at WildAboutCars to weigh in here and put this inflammatory, defamatory, and plainly insulting nonsense to rest. I do not have the credentials to do sp.




No, not every eBay seller, but every eBay seller of digital media, until proven otherwise.
Russia and China are experts at mass-produced digital piracy, and their stuff can look completely "authentic." Of course, all of this stuff can be convincingly pirated closer to home, as well.

My point is that it's so easy and common to do it, that I have no idea how I would even tell whether one is legitimate - All I know is that, through the ages, a self-affirmation of legitimacy has never been known to be of great value.


I concur, Jaunty.

- Eric

kitfoxdave

I bought an original manual from someone on ebay... it was a discarded library copy in good shape. The electrical schematic is crisp and clear in vibrant color! I looked at the 72 diagram on wildabout cars and panicked! it was NOT clear and about 50 shades of grey! Digital stuff is nice... when scanned with good resolution...

When folks sell the digital copies etc on ebay, they could well be violating the copyright of the material. Is it worth it to GM to spend the money for one of their attorneys to write cease and desist letter? to prosecute? Most likely not. Too much expense for little to no return.

It all actuality probably helps their business by the info getting out there... the purchase of restoration parts (good profit margins on that stuff!) Spare parts and service is where the real money comes from!

jaunty75

This is a great point that I've often wondered about. Since GM itself, I presume, does not sell service manuals from the era we're talking about, they don't make any money from their resale, anyway. So what is the real value to them in pursuing someone who violates the copyright? They might as well declare that, after so many years (25? 50?), these manuals revert to the public domain.

Yes, it's a violation of copyright to make a xerox copy of something that has been copyrighted and then sell it. Those guys on ebay who are selling CD copies of scanned service manuals are violating copyright laws because what they're doing is no different than making paper copies and selling those. But I wouldn't buy a CD copy, anyway, as the scan quality can be very poor.

As you note, there is nothing like an original, paper copy of the service manual, especially for something that is highly detailed and in small print, like a wiring diagram. The scans on wildaboutcars vary from manual to manual depending on the quality and care that was taken when the diagram was scanned initially. Some are good, but some, as you note, are not.

Allan R

X2 Dave. There are varying opinions about whether OEM manuals are better than the repops or electronic versions. IMO the repop manuals and electronic versions do not show the crisp details the OEM manuals do especially in pictures - and I compared apples to apples to make that statement. BTW the electrical schematic in the 71 CSM on WAC is in color and it's basically the same as 72. The small details are much harder to read than using a OEM manual though.

I occasionally use some info from WAC to help with members questions. The info I copy/paste is within the limitations of WAC's policy - it is limited and used for educational purposes.

The CSM is a valuable tool, and so is the Assembly Manual (Millenium Industries publication IIRC). IMO the Fisher Body Manual really has very little applications for what most of us are doing, but it has it's place in the big picture of information.

jaunty75

I beg to differ on this one. If you have to work on, say, the window mechanism in your car, you need the body manual. The operation of the seats, both manual and power, is in there, as well as diagrams on how they're installed. You want to adjust the hood for proper alignment or the amount of effort required to close the trunk lid? It's in the body manual. I could go on.

One of the most valuable things in the BM that's not in the CSM is wiring diagrams for many important aspects of the car. You think the only wiring diagrams are in the CSM? Think again.

When I needed to track down both a short in the taillight circuit and an inoperative rear tailgate switch on my '73 wagon, this information was in the body manual. The service manual is completely silent on the installation, disassembly, operation, and maintenance of the power rear window or tailgate.

Yes, I would say that, when restoring a car, one spends about 75% of one's manual-consulting time looking at the CSM. But when you need the body manual, you need it.

Bunser

I agree with Jaunty. When it comes to replacing the door glass and quarter glass that you never removed, the Fisher Body Manual is very helpful. I'd hate to think of the trouble you could get into without one!
On another note, it's good to see some more civil discussion regarding service manuals whether they are paper or plastic.

Allan R

Dan, you'll get no argument that the BM has those items - I've seen them too when I was researching various issues; I never said or inferred they weren't there, I simply think most of the information in the BM isn't as related to most of the questions and discussions that come up on this site.

I agree that all knowledge bases for a complete restoration are found in the CSM, BM, and AM and documented photos of the teardown. My comment was more in line with the average guy wrenching on things like brakes, engines, trans etc. and I'm sure they spend more than 75% of the time in the CSM and AM than the BM. I don't use the BM as much as the others, but I certainly give it credit for having relevant information. One thing I noted about the BM is that it covers ALL the GM lines produced in the specified model year, not just a single brand.

On a side note, I've also found Haynes and Chiltons to have some good info (for my wifes Saturn) since I don't have a CSM for her car. There are good information sources on the market, but when given the choice I'll always go with OEM.