Thanks Dave that is outstanding info ! No questions should ever be again !

 

Thank you DaveB for the great and very interesting information. I never knew of the '69 evaluation cars for paint colors, as well as the W-31 equipped test Rallye's. It would had been interesting to see the Rallye in other colors.


It seems other manufacturers that also had limited run cars, such as the Rebel Machine, SC/Rambler, GSX, and others, started with limited colors or paint schemes, but then later opened it up to different colors or stripe schemes to broaden the model's customer base.


Always knew the Olds 350/310 engine, with dual exhaust and performance gears, was comparable, if not faster, in non-track situations then the competitor's 383, 396, 351, and 343 engines, as well as the other division's 350 engines.

 

Many thanks to DaveB for the history lesson.

 

As a final follow up on the paint colors. I was invited to view the final W45 displayed in the flux "Show Room" across from engineering on the second floor of the Assembly Plant just above the Engine Assembly line. There was about oh maybe 75-80 people there, situated along the walls of the "Show Room". We watch two guys from Marketing and two from Sales dance around the two W45 s (one was on the turn table going round and round) for about 1/2 hour. Then one stepped to the podium and stated "due to cost only the Sebring Yellow was going to be the single paint and no other colors available due to cost of developing the stripe package to match other colors". You could hear a pin drop. After a few seconds and almost in unison you could hear "well that will be a one year only car"................and it was! Some W45 s were not sold till well in to the 71' model year production! It is true that some were repainted and some got chrome bumpers. This was found out after we started to receive warranty claims for paint and bumper warranty submissions.


Talking about bumpers, every once in awhile I would go to the "Stamping Shop" where they stamped the bumpers, oil pans, etc. Huge several stories high 150 ton hydraulic stamping presses mounted on an oak floor with 6"X14" thick oak boards stood on end. Every time they pressed a part it would bounce you up about an inch or so off the floor. Very impressive! The Bumper Finishing Dept. was close to this area. It was dark, nasty, dirty, and for some reason not well lighted. You could see the stacks of "yellow bumpers" all over the place. I asked the supervisor why? He said "they were all rejects and whoever made the decision to do the urethane bumpers was costing Olds a lot of $$$". I have to admit that chrome bumpers on a W45 was not very good looking! They should have got with Pontiac on how to do it. Back then there was a lot of competition amongst each division and not a lot of sharing was going on!

 

As I've been working on a book (https://www.facebook.com/sellingmuscle) over the past year, I've learned some things that may be a surprise:

Rebel Machine: R/W/B was a signature color but regular colors were planned from the start after the first 1,000 units.

1970LetterandMachiF2DA3.jpg

SC/Rambler: The "B" paint scheme was produced in the first batch along with "A" scheme cars, despite prevailing wisdom according to past magazine features. I can't say whether that was planned from the get-go or they eventually decided to offer a more conservative scheme. However, it wasn't done to "broaden the customer base" because the SC/Rambler was strictly limited to 500 units, then expanded to meet demand (and according to one AMC expert I've met, to use up leftover 390s).

GSX: Only two colors in 1970, and I think 6 in 1971 (plus three colors known to be special-ordered) and all colors in 1972.

1969 Judge: I know a month after its introduction, the Judge was available in colors other than Carousel Red, but I am uncertain if this was known from the get-go or if it was a running change. The signature color for 1970, Orbit Orange, was an afterthought.

I think for all the above vehicles that were created to bring in showroom traffic, among other things, only the Rallye was one color without variations.

 

The GSX was a factory car in '70, but if I recall, dealer installed on any GS455 in '71-'72. I had a chance to buy a '70 GSX Stage 1 4spd from the original owner in 1980, for $2000, I didn't think that I could afford it, and bought a '66 GTO for $1700, go figure.

 

Nah, they were factory cars.

http://www.buickgsx.net

 

Sent an email to Marco at the registry, they were factory produced all years, with some add ons at the dealer in '71&72.
Hi Dan,

True GSXs were built at the Flint MI plant only.

If I bought a car...went to a dealer to stripe it to look like a GSX...the dealer would do it (money talks) but it is not a factory car.

1970 - GS 455 only - complete package (stripes, front spoiler, rear spoiler, hood tach)
1971-1972 - both GS455 and GS350 - stripes only. The front spoiler/rear spoiler/hood tach can be added

Marco

 

I know of Marco and he knows his stuff, but I think he articulated it poorly.

From the factory (1971-72), it was possible to buy the front spoiler, rear spoiler, and tach (which was optional for the GSX after 1970, I believe) separately for a GS, but it was not possible to order the GSX only with stripes as he wrote.

 

The history of all the manufactured muscle cars never ceases to amaze me. It seems something new always pops up as there many previously unknown nuances and interesting facts that have only recently been revealed by the work of many and their research, as well the many hobbyists whom worked in the factories, offices, dealerships, and other avenues during the time of the muscle cars, whom graciously share their stories and information with us.

 

Here's the doc for 1971 GS...

 

I also tried to buy a '71 GSX 455 (non Stage 1) in 1983, drove 5 hours to look at it in mid Illinois, after talking to the owner, alas no deal was done.

 

One last thought, I wonder if the late production QB version of the L74 engine was produced with the intent to boost the 4-speed engine's performance, specifically in the Rallye 350.


The installation of the 442 4-speed carburetor, 442 automatic cam, and different head specifications may have been done to offset the Road Runner's 383 Magnum engine, which used the heads and cam from the 440 Magnum.


The QB engine would have kept the Rallye on par with the Road Runner without additional costs since the upgraded parts were already available. Just not sure why Oldsmobile did not make an automatic version of the QB engine for the Rallye.

 

But that updated engine was available on regular Cutlasses too, so I dunno if I believe that. Plus, by the time of the running change, Oldsmobile knew that the market was already dead, so I bet that there may have been a more practical, engineering-related reason for the change.

Regarding the 383 Super Commando (Dodge's was the Magnum), all of them had those 440 bits. Just goes to show you that the marketing worked!

In any case, the Rallye's 350 was competitive with the 383 but they were not on the same level - the 383 is clearly the stronger motor.

 

Oops, mixed up the 383 names...


Not sure of the engineering related change, as Oldsmobile already had the 4-speed QV engine that worked, but without the performance upgrades of the QB engine. The engine was available on all Cutlasses, but this might have been done to keep the cost down instead of just limiting it to the Rallye's.


We had a new '70 Cutlass "S" with the L74 engine, automatic trans, and 3.42 posi rear, and it consistently kept up with 383 Road Runners, 396 Chevelles, 351 Mach 1's, 350 GT-37's, and GS350's. Of course, these were base models and not the high performance versions. In my opinion, these cars, and all of the muscle cars of that era, were great.


It did make us wonder how fast a W-31 equipped Cutlass was, as the L74 was no slouch. Always wished I had the chance to find out.

 

Yeah, I think Oldsmobile should be commended for having a "regular" motor that was as powerful as it was.

Don't forget that the base Mach I and GT-37s were 2bbls., with the latter never having a 4bbl. option, so it wouldn't be a surprise for the Olds to come out on top. With the 351 4bbl. I've never been able to figure it out because while the 351C is supposed to be superior to the 351W, I've read that the size of its ports (or something like that) was too much for the street. They managed to make things harmonious with the Boss 351, but I've never heard of a stock 351C being able to fake it the way an L74 could.

 

The Boss 351's engine was amazing fast and Ford really got it right, not unlike the W-31 engine. Just enough without overdoing it. I think the GT-37 did have 4-bbl options on the 400 engine. But it has been so many years that I will need to check. You are correct the Mach 1's base engine had a 2-bbl with single exhaust. The Cutlass did out perform the 4-bbl version of the 351.


Most of the owners could not believe the Cutlass had a 350 and wanted see for themselves it was not a 455. Back then, Chevy was the one everyone thought of whenever performance and 350 were mentioned.


I don't know why though since the Smother Brothers and others were racing and winning for years with their 350 Ram Rod and W-31 equipped Cutlasses.


With so many different makes and models of muscle cars, and their many variations and options over the years, it is no wonder that you are always learning something new about them, Oldsmobile or not.

 

You had said "350 GT-37"

 

It came standard with two "W" options standard, the "W25" hood and the "W35" wing. If thats not "W" enough then no car is a "W" car.

 

You are correct, all 350 GT-37's were 2-bbl engines. Only the 400 in '70 and '71 had the 4-bbl option, as well as the 455 in 1971.


I had forgotten about the number of cars and models that were released halfway through the 1970 model year. It was an exciting year for car nuts.

 

But those options could be added to any 1970 Cutlass that was 350 4 bbl equipped. Sorry I respectfully disagree. That is NOT W enough for me.

 

"Add on" and "factory standard" is apple to oranges.
Which is worth more, a standard 442 with an add on W25 or one than came with it from the factory?

 

Then let's make it apples to apples:

"Those options could be ordered on any 1970 Cutlass that was 350 4bbl.-equipped."

 

Wasn't the 442 option called W-29? Does that make them W cars?

 

Really, you have seen a wing on a Supreme from the factory?

 

I wrote Cutlass as did others. Why are you bringing the Cutlass Supreme into the discussion?


We are all entitled to our own opinions but no one will ever convince me that the Rallye 350 is a W machine.

 

The whole point of this thread was because of W45 being a unique code for a high performance optioned car that leaned towards appearance more than HP but is loaded with muscle car olds w stuff besides a unique W option soley for this package and being a W30 and a W31 is a whole package as well this was my point besides the 70 W machine brochure was created in 69 before the Rallye W45 came out and lastly the performance side of the special cammed stick Rallyes puts them at least in a decent spot amongst the competitors. Yes to me a Cutlass with stick QB 310 rated engine with W25 and W35 added etc would qualify as a little junior muscle car but is not part of a single W package option though that is the difference to me.

 

I've been trying to avoid wasting my time on this thread, but it's like watching a train wreck. I just keep getting drawn back in...

So using YOUR logic, a 1972 Cutlass S with the VIN H motor (350 2bbl, single exhaust, 160 pavement-ripping horses) that was ordered with RPO W29 (the 442 appearance and handling package) and also got W39 (three speed Hurst floor shifter) is also a "W-machine", since it has TWO W-options.

I think not.

"Add on" was used in the context of ordering a Cutlass with RPO W25 and W35 from the factory, not adding them after purchase.

Since there is no way to prove that a car came with W25 from the factory or not, they are worth exactly the same. In fact, since just about EVERY SINGLE 1970-72 Olds A-body still on the road now has a W25 hood, ones with the original metal hood are probably worth more...

 

My Supreme says "Cutlass" right on the fender.
Add on and ordered is the same thing verses "STANDARD".
So A "W" machine is a car with add on options that has standard parts yet a Rallye isn't isn't included, so just a w30 and a w31 engine makes a car a "W" car? Sounds like logic made up by w30 and w31 owners to keep themselves above everyone else??? What about a 72 Hurst/Olds with a W25 hood and standard W26 shifter, I guess their low horse engine rules them out also?

 

Um...

EVERY W-option was an "add on" by your definition. There was no such thing as a "standard" car with a W-option. The SPECS booklets, among other factory documents, clearly spell out what was standard on every model. Anything else was an "add on" selected from the order sheet.

Sorry, you can't have it both ways.

 

They are different models, as shown by body style, vin and cowl tag (W45/W46). The '72 Hurst Olds has W options, but is not a W machine. If you had a rare '72 H/O with the X in the vin, then you would have a '72 H/O with the W30 engine, the car is not a W machine.

 

Is a W-Machine something defined by Oldsmobile marketing, or is it something defined by us?

Because a 1972 H/O W-30 (technically, W-46, right?) wouldn't be according to the former, but I don't see why it wouldn't be to collectors.

 

yep, or W45 as was the Rallye, maybe because they were defined by that, as were the 442 W30, or the Cutlass W31. Today, nor in the past have those vehicles (H/O, Rallye) been referred to as a Rallye W45, or a Hurst Olds W46, forty years ago when I saw a Rallye 350 or a Hurst Olds, that how they were identified, as a "Rallye 350" or a "Hurst Olds", while the W30's and W31's were defined by that call out, hey, "I saw a '69 W30, or a '70 W31 at the shopping plaza". Today it seems to be used by every dealer to enhance what they have to justify the price that they are asking for them. I am fond of all of them, and should I pick up a Rallye 350 or a H/O, that's how they will be referred to.

 

Don't put words in my mouth.
On a Rallye350 a W25 hood and a W35 wing was not and option on this model it was standard, but what your saying is W30 which is only an option on a standard 442 is what makes it a "W" car.
Actually a Rallye350, 70 Pace car and a 72 H/O are the only cars that came standard with a W25 hood, seeing how a 442 is standard car yet the only way to get a W25 hood standard is to get the optional W30 package which has the W25 hood standard on an option package.

 

Let me simplify this for you, W machines: W30, W31, 1969 W32.

 

I think the 72 H/O W46 X vin qualifies.

 

Let me simplify it for you, like I said before, a few wanting to keep everyone else below them.

 

You apparently don't understand the difference between "model" and "option". None of the cars you refer to are models. They were all OPTION packages. Since the models varied from year-to-year, let's take the 1970 Rallye 350. This was OPTION PACKAGE RPO W45, available on three MODELS, the Cutlass S Holiday Coupe, Cutlass S Sport Coupe, and F-85 Sports Coup. THOSE are the models and each had standard equipment, as documented in the factory sales literature. Each model has a unique VIN. There was no unique VIN for the Rallye 350, just as there was no unique VIN for the W-30 or W-31 in 1970.

By definition, any RPO code equipment that started with a "W" was an OPTION, not standard equipment on any model.

 

That's the way I see it Joe.

So wouldn't any car with a "W" performance option package be a "W" car?
Not just added, random "W" options?

Or is it just 2-3 "W" performance engine options that make a W-machine?

-Pete

 

Let's be serious here. "W-machine" was a marketing term from the same people who brought us "Rocket V8". It has just about as much meaning, too.

The reality is that only the W-30 and W-31 packages had unique engines and added performance. The 1970 W-32 was simply the base 365 HP 442 motor in a Cutlass Supreme body. The Rallye 350 was just the L74 4bbl 350 in a Cutlass with yellow paint. These are all just marketing gimmicks.

I really can't believe I've wasted as much time as I have on this topic.