Saw an article in today's paper. While GM stopped making Pontiacs nearly a year ago, today, October 31, 2010, officially marks the end of the brand as today is the day GM's franchise agreements with its Pontiac dealers officially ends.

One tidbit from the article: What was Pontiac's peak production year, and how many were produced?

Answer: 1973, when 920,000 were built. It surprised me to read this. With all the years that Pontiac was #3 behind Ford and Chevy, I would have thought they would have hit the 1 million mark at least once as Olds did several times in the late '70s and then again in the mid-'80s.

 

Its hard to believe another great name gone. I always loved Buick too but can't understand how they got rid of Olds before Buick. Of course in today's market I can see them getting rid of any of the names except maybe for Chevy and Cadillac.

Same here, I would have thought in the mid 60s to early 70s they would have sold 1mm between the Lemans/GTOs/Grand Prix's and Firebirds alone.

 

Because Buick was making money and Olds wasn't, as I understand it. Both were selling about the same number of cars, but while Buick's capacity was about equal what it was selling, Olds's manufacturing infrastructure was underutilized significantly, and it was costing them money to maintain factories that weren't being fully used.

Plus, I think that GM marketers at the time believed that Buick had a stronger future than Olds, with Buick's sales being particularly good in China.


Personally, I always thought Buick was too close to Cadillac in the market segment they each sought to sell cars in, and Olds would have been a better brand to retain as it fell more in the middle between Chevy and Cadillac.

The was I see it now, with Pontiac now gone, GM has a weird mix of makes: Chevy, Cadillac, Buick, and GMC. One every-man division that makes everything, a truck division that makes the same thing as Chevy does, so it's redundant, and two luxury-car divisions. With both Pontiac and Olds now gone, GM has nothing in the middle.

 

though from what I heard from my older relatives Oldsmobile in the 50s and 60s was valued almost, if not, as much as a Cadillac, Buick was below the Olds and the Olds always had the innovative options first, basically testing the market before they would risk it on the Cadillac. Was that true?

 

Would you like to post some sales figures? Including foreign sales?

 

I always saw Buicks with more lux-y stuff than Olds. I feel that it was done like this for a reason... In fact, i have a Buick stereo in my 86 Olds becuse it is so much more advanced than the top of the line unit Olds had for it.
Olds had many swell innovations, but they seemed to be exploited to its disadvantage. I think the "Olds stabbed int he back" thread summed that up.

My crystal ball has been showing me a fuzzy future for Buick, since it is so close to Caddy. GM may soon be like the other manufacturers - offering one regular brand and one luxy brand.
Not the way i like to see it happen, but it might could.........

 

I think Jaunty is right about Buick making a lot money in China. It is the only GM brand established there so they couldn't pull the plug. GMC is actually quite different than Chevy. The frame, engines etc are the same but the body is quite different. Cadillac and Buick only dealers can't sell Chevy trucks but they can sell GMC and that adds up to a lot of trucks. Chevy plus GMC together outsell Ford trucks.
I thought there was room for Pontiac as the "BMW" division. Since GM would not sell the Pontiac brand to the dealer group that wanted to buy it, I still think there is a good chance it will return one day.

 

Buick remained, on the whim of a Chinese fad. That will pass like Americans love affair with Pokemon, passed. I'm not Cadillac material, being that I'm not retired, not a yuppy, and not an urban dwelling minority. I'm comfortable with my Buicks, although my newest purchase was an '08 Tarus Limited. It just became my choice over the Lucerne, because of 45 more hp, combined with 6 speed trans, REALLY makes a difference. The Limited is also loaded with Chrome, wood grain 18' wheels with Perelli's, sunroof, All the airbags STANDARD and TOP traction controll STANDARD ( where Buicks BEST, costs extra). The Buick with their BEST technolodgy safety stuff, v-8, sunroof, chrome everything, was over $44k !!! Not even close to my budget.

 

Sure. It's actually amazing how closely Buick and Olds production tracked each other through the mid-90s. For 1993, 1994, and 1995 in particular, production between the two differed by less than 1%. The last three years on the list below show Buick falling faster than Olds, but Buick could, apparently still make money at those levels while Olds could not. At least, that's the story I heard.




1992
Buick: 427,915
Olds: 395,974


1993
Buick: 402,389
Olds: 398,717
(difference of 0.9%)


1994
Buick: 483,029
Olds: 481,452
(difference of 0.3%)


1995
Buick: 393,879
Olds: 391,216
(difference of 0.7%)


1996
Buick: 342,538
Olds: 300,032


1997
Buick: 287,655
Olds: 277,086


1998
Buick: 212,780
Olds: 291,064


1999
Buick: 216,652
Olds: 277,782


2000
Buick: 209,328
Olds: 237,399

 

Are those sales or production figures? Just trying to be sure those figures do include foreign sales. All depends on the source of information.

 

I got them from right here. It says production figures.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._Au...uction_Figures

 

Considering the source and lack of credits to indicate further credibility, I'd take those with a grain of salt. Not that I believe them to be false, but as lifelong student of statistics with a deep background in Automotive stats, I know how they can be skewed.

 

Two comments.

1. You're right.

2. Does it really matter?

I checked the values above against the Olds production values given in Setting the Pace. None of them agree to the last digit with the values above, which were gotten from Consumer Guide magazine, according to the reference on Wikipedia. However, the values are close in most cases. This would suggest that the Buick values are at least as accurate.

More importantly, we don't need 10th decimal place precision here. I was simply trying to make the point that Buick and Olds production through this period was comparable. Exactly how comparable doesn't matter. The issue was, while Buick could make money at those production levels, Olds could not. This contributed to the decision to close Oldsmobile as it was thought that it would be more difficult to return Olds to profitability than it would be to keep an already profitable Buick profitable.

 

Sure it matters.
Statistics are not a matter of not being important because of a point trying to be made.
I didn't bring this up as a matter of "10th decimal place precision here". I brought this up because there *are* inaccuracies that make more than an appreciable difference.
I brought up in a previous thread that the Oldsmobile production figures had some very minor totals variance that had been noted by Helen Early. And what was used in the Setting the Pace is "considered" to be the official production figures from Oldsmobile. That is properly putting aside "10th decimal place precision here" as you refer to it.
But I've already seen numerous misreporting of sales and production figures that way beyond any real accuracy, so trust me, I know the difference and would not bring up trivial differences when discussing trends.
Like with most forms of reporting, I have little to no reason to believe any report without knowing the source of the information. Especially internet based reports.

 

Someone asked about Olds being a 'trial' for Cadillac - -
I'd been working at a Cadillac dealership in '66 doing all the wholesale, when the Cadillac-Oldsmobile dealership in my hometown offered me $10 more a week to come to them! And it was 15 miles closer!
Biggest problem I had was they had the partsroom set-up for; left-side Cadillac, right-side Oldsmobile, and anything that fit both, in the middle, and they even had the same part number!
But the price books had the "Cadillac" part about 20% higher, list price!!!!!!
Wasn't there very long, [went to Nickey Chevrolet] but never saw anything 'trial' start on an Olds!!!

 

Yes, but we don't want to let anything as annoying as the facts get in the way of a good conspiracy theory.

 

This is not true.

The hierarchy was:

Chevrolet
Pontiac
Olds
Buick
Cadillac

Additionally, I feel that Buick's success in China has nothing to do with Buick's survival in America over Pontiac's.

 

I thought Olds was more like Cadillac.When the gas crunch hit hit in the early 70's Olds competing with Cadillac was like Gm competing with Gm.With the imports coming in,the market was cut drastically so went to being a cheaper economy car.Where it died.Thats just what I alway thoat Don't take it personally I could be wrong.As for Pontiac going before Buick it could be something like how many people are on the payroll or how much they make or what contracts they have with suppliers.If someone is loyal to Pontiac they're not going to switch to Ford they'll switch to another Gm brand.So GM doesn't really lose.

 

All I know as far as hierarchy is that back in the day when I lived in a Boston suburb, The pimp mobile of choice (next to a caddy) was the Buick Electra 225 (aka duece & a quarter) man, there were some real decked out machines back in the day. fur on the dash, zebra seats, tinted windows all around, the boomerang shaped antennae, those lil curb feelers, & trunk straps, oh, and the Jesus stickers on the headlights! LOL

In my neighborhood Pontiac was more of a performance brand, and Olds for all around engineering and reliability.

I will miss Pontiac. My uncle had a 70 Catalina, and I have a good friend with a 67 goat. Friend still has the gto, the cat was sold when my uncle passed a few years ago.

RIP Pontiac

 

Are they still making the Tran-Am?
railguy

 

It's not being built by G.M.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RqryZ3GZ7fc

It's a shame that Oldsmobile and Pontiac are not being built being built anymore. I guess we will just have to keep these old cars on the road so people can remember how G.M. use to build great cars.

 

Yup. The thing is, you slap a GMC nameplate and can double the profit on that vehicle. And they sell like hotcakes.

The Terrain is much different than the Equinox. They both sell very well but the GMC makes more per unit.

 

Diamond back window..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7qSIO...eature=related

 

I saw two different prototypes made by Lingenfelter at GM Carlisle this year. They had the white super duty there and a black one that reminded me of the Bandit car. Did not ask what they cost but they were very nice rides.

 

just think of all the people that lost there jobs

 

It's not like they're closing a plant because Pontiac is no more.

 

the way i understan is that . 16 plants 500 dealerships

 

Chances are those dealership were not Pontiac-only.

 

right on olds style! I forgot to mention the whitewalls! We made fun of em like nobodys business, but man they were fun to look at.

 

You mean the Vogue tires?

 

I sure like my 73 supreme but everyone else loves my Poncho!

 

Gansta walls...aka wide whites

 

Think..."The Great Gatsby"

 

Static straps, mirror muffs, throw pillows (or fancy kleenex holder) on the package shelf, Steering wheel ball....

 

Chrome covers 1/2 way over the headlights (ala BIGJERR)...

 

Same here....
Having been through it, I empathize with the Pontiac fans....

 

Yes, but I'm guessing that, like Oldsmobile, most of the fans of Pontiac cars own examples made 30 and 40 years ago, not ones made in the last decade or so. The Pontiac that these people knew has been gone for a long time.

Thus, while they, like we, are sad that their brand is gone, they're not exactly sad about the loss of vehicles like the Aztek just like we're not exactly losing sleep over the loss of the Achieva.

 

I see your point. But, if the brands were still alive (both Oldsmobile & Pontiac), you can hold out hope that the even thought recent & current offerings aren't that great, that maybe...just maybe there will be something worthwhile in the future.

Pontiac had the G8 which is a great car.

Image a Zeta platform based coupe with Olds styling in& out and a S/C'd 5.4 Northstar/Aurora V8......

 

Watch it there, buddy!

 

Buick was favored by GM for 2 reasons: higher profit margin (that's a huge thing for the bean counters), and popularity in China. I can't say that it's right, but those are the two big reasons. Olds always had the image problem starting in the 60's with the name- "old" not "young" as well.
Several years ago, GM decided to spend big money revitalizing Cadillac, while ignoring the Saturn division (a huge mistake imho). Why? Because Cadillac had an even bigger profit margin!

I recall listening to the news 12 or 18 months back about the potential shut-down of 2 or more GM divisions. The reporter stated that Chev and Cadillac are the "big sellers". What a load of misleading crap. Pontiac sold WAY more units than Cadillac. Cadillac just make more money on each unit- bigger profit margin. Not to mention a bunch of recent investment from the parent GM.

Historically, the divisions were lined up like this:
Chev: economy division
Pontiac: performance division
Olds: technology division
Buick: luxury division
Cadillac: ultra-luxury division.

See that? 2 luxury divisions. Profit margin. That's the bean-counter thinking. It's better to make a more expensive car because you make more money on it. But what it the price of gas goes up, and nobody wants to buy an expensive gas guzzler? Oops. Bean counters think of this year and next year. Nothing else.

Oh well.