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Hot Rod December 1st 1998. Shootout results on a 450 hp built 350. RPM range 3500-7000. Stock points vs stock HEI. Bold print is for winner, ties are not highlighted, specs provided for each RPM milestone.
Points vs HEI HP production on dyno at given RPM.(Points results are always posted first below.)
241.2 vs 238.3 @ 3500 rpm 249.7 vs 248.0 @ 3600
258.2 vs 258.2 @ 3700 265.5 vs 264.9 @ 3800 276.5 vs 273.9 @ 3900 282.5 vs 282.2 @ 4000 289.5 vs 287.3 @ 4100 295.8 vs 293.1 @ 4200 309.0 vs 302.7 @ 4300 320.3 vs 313.2 @ 4400 328.8 vs 324.7 @ 4500
337.2 vs 338.7 @ 4600 349.3 vs 348.9 @ 4700
356.8 vs 356.9 @ 4800 372.1 vs 369.0 @ 4900
378.2 vs 380.6 @ 5000 391.0 vs 389.8 @ 5100 402.5 vs 399.2 @ 5200
406.6 vs 402.7 @ 5300 412.1 vs 406.6 @ 5400
412.3 vs 414.2 @ 5500 422.6 vs 418.4 @ 5600 425.7 vs 423.8 @ 5700 431.0 vs 430.7 @ 5800 432.1 vs 428.4 @ 5900 428.1 vs 427.0 @ 6000 433.5 vs 427.6 @ 6100
432.2 vs 432.2 @ 6200 438.1 vs 437.5 @ 6300
436.3 vs 436.3 @ 6400
435.7 vs 435.7 @ 6500
433.4 vs 435.3 @ 6600
444.1 vs 446.0 @ 6700
444.8 vs 444.8 @ 6800 424.2 vs 417.9 @ 6900 391.1 vs 384.9 @ 7000 rpm
I did not include the high performance HEI results because Car Craft did not include a high performance point sets test results. But I included the original article of course. At the end of the day Car Craft, Hot Rod, etc, were/are in the business of promoting aftermarket parts...
"We recommend converting to an electronic ignition on a musclecar engine over a point-type ignition system for several reasons. The first is reliability," Car Craft Magazine.
For those questioning Car Crafts accuracy. "To ensure accurate results, the distributor's supply of incoming power voltage was carefully regulated, the engine coolant temperature was the same for each dyno pull, and each ignition setup was tested back-to-back no less than three times." https://www.hotrod.com/how-to/ccrp-9...rformance-test
All said and done would I convert an original points car to HEI, no unless points replacements disappeared. Would I convert a mint 1976 455 442 etc to points, no. But overall I believe the points car will always get you home even when they are deteriorating vs hit or miss with the HEI and no backup module. And the peak performance difference from posted results in my 2nd post of this thread of 1.2 hp means the HEI car at a 3500 lbs test weight would run an 11.565 to a 11.575 with points.
From that article, photo 13 caption, "Afterward, we dyno tested the setup and found that the stock HEI produced 446.0 hp-about 1.2 more hp over the points distributor setup." Given they also stated on the photo 8 caption that the points made 444.8 hp, that doesn't seem like a typo.
In either case, you may want to brush up on "significant digits". Just because a calculator can spit out digits to 20 decimals, doesn't mean that its accurate to that. You'd NEVER reliably capture the difference in ET from 1.2 HP difference.
If you want to dick around with points on a regular basis because you want a period correct car or might, maybe, someday have an HEI module fail, you do you. I had an HEI in my car for 15 years and never once had an issue, and never once replaced a single part or changed the tuning on it. It was set and forget. Other people obviously have had issues, so if that possibility bothers you, carry spare parts or constantly fiddle with points. No sweat off my back either way.
The problem is that none of these dyno test runs represent a statistically valid sample size. I'm assuming the entire test suite only used a single distributor of each style. Manufacturing tolerances can skew the data one way or another. The reality is that the numbers developed are exactly the same, within the statistical error band. This test proves that there is exactly NO difference between the two, which I have been saying for years. The coil and plugs neither know nor care if the switch that closes and opens to discharge the spark is mechanical or electronic.
And before the resident experts point out that their MSD 4720XLS box provides more dwell, etc, etc, yeah, I'm aware that high end electronic distributors can provide benefits over basic points. This comparison is a GM coil-in-cap HEI vs a GM points distributor. I'll bet that most Pertronix and similar points replacement kits also fall into that "no performance benefit" category. And also yes, when you replace pitted, worn out points with a brand new electronic system, your butt dyno will show a dramatic improvement.
I also believe that people think they must run Grand Canyon sized plug gaps with an HEI. Not true. You can still run your 30 or 35 or (fill in the blank) gap sizes. Granted, a stock HEI is designed to fire a wider gap much easier than a points system would, so slightly less chance of fouling using wider gaps, but unless you're worried about emissions inspections or whatever, "normal" plug gaps run perfectly fine. "Normal" gaps put less strain on the HEI anyway and the modules should never give out due to being overworked. Shouldn't go over 60 thou on the gaps using stock HEIs. And whatever you do, go with the highest quality HEI modules you can afford. Those cheap chinesium ones fail way more often. That can give the HEI a bad name. I've got a enough of the pre-trash-era Delco units to last me a lifetime.
As stated, mechanical tolerances make a world of difference on distributors, but overall, there's no points to clean/change/adjust which does make maintenance tasks easier. I've never considered HEI to be an upgrade over a points system. It's just another way to fire the plugs and comes with its own set of potential issues. I always carried a spare set of points and an alternator belt in my cars back in the day, and now it's a module, instead. Takes up about the same space. No difference to me.
Coil in cap isn't the best idea, IMO. That's probably my only point of contention with an HEI. But my preference is to run what ya brung. If it's points, it's fine. If it's an HEI, that's fine too. I've dealt with both.
You want a real problem child? Try a 93 LT1 F-body unmodified opti-spark. Worst sign-off on a plug firing idea yet.
Bottom line is that the engine will determine the correct plug gap, not the distributor. Wide gaps on factory HEI systems were for EPA compliance, not performance. People who suggest otherwise don't understand the reason why these systems exist.
This is a good time to point out that a coil marketed as higher voltage than factory will not actually make a hotter spark. The voltage required to jump a specific plug gap is determined by the charge density in the cylinder, so that “million Volt” coil will spark at 10,000 Volts just like the original HEI or points setup.
With all this talk about HEI ignition, I decided to buy an extra module for the 30 year old unit in my 442. Just received a new AC Delco D1906 from Rock Auto and, to my surprise, it says MADE IN USA!
Be careful with boxes that say made in USA, etc. Even the Delco boxes. For example, the preferred OEM style differential pressure sensor on a mid-80s Cutlass VIN 9 engine (original p/n) says "Made in USA" on the box...yet all the factory ones were made in Japan. WTF.
Look closely:
This one they got right. Most I've seen of them has Japan on the box, but who knows what they did.
I wonder if the centrifugal advance curves were the same in both distributors.
HEI's were introduced in 1975. so all of them would be curved for emission motors.
If you are going to use one on an earlier points type engine, they should be re-curved.
HEI's were introduced in 1975. so all of them would be curved for emission motors.
If you are going to use one on an earlier points type engine, they should be re-curved.
all the distributors left the factory with very conservative timing curves in an act of self preservation. Some are better than others but they can use a performance curve.
The problem is that none of these dyno test runs represent a statistically valid sample size. I'm assuming the entire test suite only used a single distributor of each style. Manufacturing tolerances can skew the data one way or another. The reality is that the numbers developed are exactly the same, within the statistical error band. This test proves that there is exactly NO difference between the two, which I have been saying for years. The coil and plugs neither know nor care if the switch that closes and opens to discharge the spark is mechanical or electronic.
And before the resident experts point out that their MSD 4720XLS box provides more dwell, etc, etc, yeah, I'm aware that high end electronic distributors can provide benefits over basic points. This comparison is a GM coil-in-cap HEI vs a GM points distributor. I'll bet that most Pertronix and similar points replacement kits also fall into that "no performance benefit" category. And also yes, when you replace pitted, worn out points with a brand new electronic system, your butt dyno will show a dramatic improvement.
Be careful with boxes that say made in USA, etc. Even the Delco boxes. For example, the preferred OEM style differential pressure sensor on a mid-80s Cutlass VIN 9 engine (original p/n) says "Made in USA" on the box...yet all the factory ones were made in Japan. WTF.
Look closely:
This one they got right. Most I've seen of them has Japan on the box, but who knows what they did.
Not all of them!!
I know for a fact the Delco electronics plant here in Kokomo made map and other pressure sensors since the early 80s. My dad and uncle both worked in those departments.
On an unrelated subject, I toured the factory many years ago. The area where the silicon crystals were “grown” was interesting!
During the computer chip crisis a few years ago, it really pissed me off to see thousands of GM trucks stored in that parking lot waiting on the very components that were once manufactured inside that factory.
Without getting into politics, this is precisely why I find the "Made in America vs Import" thing to be so stupid. I think a lot of people still think import companies are privately held overseas, with all parts and labor coming from overseas, and the car being shipped here on a big boat and the only thing in the country is the dealerships. I think a lot of people still think domestic companies are privately held in Michigan, and all parts and labor come from the USA, and the cars are assembled in the USA, and they come to the local dealership via train and truck only. All companies are on stock markets, thus, the "owners" are global and can be you and me. All parts can be globally sourced, or domestically. All sub-assemblies can be made globally or domestically. Final assembly can be global or domestic. The only thing that is "foreign vs domestic" is where the board of directors physically sits. There is literally no difference in a foreign car company compared to a domestic car company. I have seen how the Big 3 (well, 2, now, as Chrysler is now a foreign car company) treats their employees; there is no "this company is for America" any more.
As an automotive engineer, I recommend people look at design philosophy, style, quality, performance, longevity, price, and specific features important to you when selecting your new car. Domestic parts content percentage and final point of assembly is listed on the sticker if that is important to you. I find that car companies excel at different parts and processes of the car, and everyone makes great cars, and everyone makes poor cars, depending on year and model. But, don't be like "I buy GM because they support my local Americans" with your made in Mexico truck with chips from China. Buy GM because you want to, or buy something else if you don't. It's that simple.
Without getting into politics, this is precisely why I find the "Made in America vs Import" thing to be so stupid. I think a lot of people still think import companies are privately held overseas, with all parts and labor coming from overseas, and the car being shipped here on a big boat and the only thing in the country is the dealerships.
It's been, what, almost 45 years since they started building "foreign" cars in Ohio...? I have no problem with whatever being built anywhere, as long as it's a quality item. And I'm willing to pay more for quality. Brembo (Italy) makes much of GM's performance brake equipment and they are considered high quality. And owning several cars with Brembos, I'd have to agree. I also have a couple of Camaros (with Brembo brakes) that have wheels made completely in China. And I'd consider them very good quality for OEM. But this is today. A far cry from where items were 50 years ago. For example, the Delco made in Japan sensor I posted earlier. They made those in the 80s. They're the best out of any they made for cars needing them at the time. If it were the early 70s, I'd be suspect. Japan has come a long way in the quality game. They took the ball and ran with it and made it a big part of their industrial culture, for the most part. China didn't for the longest time, and even now seems reluctant to do it unless stringent QC procedures are demanded and adhered to. The HEI modules made in Singapore? Meh. They may last, they may not. But buying old-school ACDelco HEI modules made in the U.S. is, and has been, verified to typically be a smarter move to get a higher quality part.
I think, though, aside from all that globalization stuff (debatable, I can see good and bad in it) that even though a design may be a good one, crappy QC and craftsmanship sinks the reputation of a company, or country. China fell into that. Hence the nickname "Chinesium" as a new element on the Periodic Table, arguably the most common element on planet Earth. It's hard not to find stuff not made out of Chinesium. The biggest issue for the longest time, and maybe still, is that "close to tolerances" was good enough for Chinese manufacturing quality control. What really is amazing, is that now, I don't think we could afford to make everything people want and need in the U.S., from cars to guacamole (~90% of avocados are imported from Mexico), even if we could do it. The average cost of living would skyrocket to keep up with wage demands. Not sustainable.
What's sad is, EVERY company/country can make high(er) quality stuff, if they choose to. Some dont' and some do.
The sole point of my post pointing out the "Made in America" on the module box was my surprise that it was actually made here. I know quality parts can be made anywhere.
The sole point of my post pointing out the "Made in America" on the module box was my surprise that it was actually made here. I know quality parts can be made anywhere.
Without getting into politics, this is precisely why I find the "Made in America vs Import" thing to be so stupid. I think a lot of people still think import companies are privately held overseas, with all parts and labor coming from overseas, and the car being shipped here on a big boat and the only thing in the country is the dealerships. I think a lot of people still think domestic companies are privately held in Michigan, and all parts and labor come from the USA, and the cars are assembled in the USA, and they come to the local dealership via train and truck only. All companies are on stock markets, thus, the "owners" are global and can be you and me. All parts can be globally sourced, or domestically. All sub-assemblies can be made globally or domestically. Final assembly can be global or domestic. The only thing that is "foreign vs domestic" is where the board of directors physically sits. There is literally no difference in a foreign car company compared to a domestic car company. I have seen how the Big 3 (well, 2, now, as Chrysler is now a foreign car company) treats their employees; there is no "this company is for America" any more.
As an automotive engineer, I recommend people look at design philosophy, style, quality, performance, longevity, price, and specific features important to you when selecting your new car. Domestic parts content percentage and final point of assembly is listed on the sticker if that is important to you. I find that car companies excel at different parts and processes of the car, and everyone makes great cars, and everyone makes poor cars, depending on year and model. But, don't be like "I buy GM because they support my local Americans" with your made in Mexico truck with chips from China. Buy GM because you want to, or buy something else if you don't. It's that simple.
I truly believe 90% of new cars and trucks are simply trash. Makes me sick to see the trash being built. Toyota and Honda seam to still be hanging on to quality, at least better than most these days. That said, I just rented a 2025 Rav4 with 5000 miles on it and drove it for 1700 miles. I was not very impressed.
The sole point of my post pointing out the "Made in America" on the module box was my surprise that it was actually made here. I know quality parts can be made anywhere.
I think today, for me, it's more to the point if I had a chance to support a job here in America, I'd be more inclined to do so. The globalization effort is one thing, but I'd rather see someone here in the U.S. have to get up at zero-dark-thirty and go to work and make whatever it is I'm buying this week. I'm for Team America first, everything else, second or even less.
I really like my Challenger, a quality car made here in Canada. Almost zero issues in nearly at 8 years and 160,000 km. Hopefully Strelantis gets the 6 pack and Hemi out ASAP in the new Charger. We will probably see our EV mandate rolled back somewhat. Unfortunately Made in the USA is something the rest of the world is finding alternatives wherever possible to not have that label.
I really like my Challenger, a quality car made here in Canada. Almost zero issues in nearly at 8 years and 160,000 km. Hopefully Strelantis gets the 6 pack and Hemi out ASAP in the new Charger. We will probably see our EV mandate rolled back somewhat. Unfortunately Made in the USA is something the rest of the world is finding alternatives wherever possible to not have that label.
Most new cars make it to roughly 100K miles without huge issues but after that they seam to have major issues now. I always looked at planned obsolescence as more a conspiracy but i am seeing it more and more.
Most new cars make it to roughly 100K miles without huge issues but after that they seam to have major issues now. I always looked at planned obsolescence as more a conspiracy but i am seeing it more and more.
There are some really poorly made engine designs, some have quirks that are worked out, others don't. Direct injection isn't the salvation manufacturers think, causes carbon issues and I think oil consumption as well. Of course displacement on demand causes all sorts of lifter and cam failures. The 3.6 Pentastar is a simple design with only a couple of flaws, mostly plastic parts mishandled or is a heat issue. I am even still on the original battery 8 years in on my Challenger. I would have thought our minus 40 and plus 35(95) temps, Winter vs Summer and everything in-between would be hardest on electronics but it seems extreme heat is hardest on it, also on the interior.
Any dyno run will show differences of 1 or 2 hp when done even half hour apart. the original figures posted don’t mean much , especially when they are not a consistent gain or loss across the rpm range.
I haven’t put points back in rebuilt engines in decades. They always get upgraded to after market electronic ignition. the GM hei goes in the garbage
theres a real paranoia of being stranded on the side of the road these days..which makes no sense. every person in every car has a cell phone..not like the old days when these cars broke down, you were actually stranded.
There are some really poorly made engine designs, some have quirks that are worked out, others don't. Direct injection isn't the salvation manufacturers think, causes carbon issues and I think oil consumption as well. Of course displacement on demand causes all sorts of lifter and cam failures. The 3.6 Pentastar is a simple design with only a couple of flaws, mostly plastic parts mishandled or is a heat issue. I am even still on the original battery 8 years in on my Challenger. I would have thought our minus 40 and plus 35(95) temps, Winter vs Summer and everything in-between would be hardest on electronics but it seems extreme heat is hardest on it, also on the interior.
my 2019 Ranger has 388,000 kilometres on it. motor and trans never touched. original battery and exhaust. brakes , tires , oil/filer and struts is the only things ever done
There are some really poorly made engine designs, some have quirks that are worked out, others don't. Direct injection isn't the salvation manufacturers think, causes carbon issues and I think oil consumption as well. Of course displacement on demand causes all sorts of lifter and cam failures. The 3.6 Pentastar is a simple design with only a couple of flaws, mostly plastic parts mishandled or is a heat issue. I am even still on the original battery 8 years in on my Challenger. I would have thought our minus 40 and plus 35(95) temps, Winter vs Summer and everything in-between would be hardest on electronics but it seems extreme heat is hardest on it, also on the interior.
Lots of really bad transmissions out there now also.
This test proves that there is exactly NO difference between the two, which I have been saying for years.
Precisely.
Joe you are the biggest asset the Olds community could ever hope for. And I say this with complete and absolute sincerity. I wish Ai could tap into your brain and spit out an encyclopedia of the truth and reality that matters in Oldsmobile. You've been complimented ad nauseum for decades, and deservedly so. But I will still add, Thank you for being here.
Originally Posted by Fun71
This is a good time to point out that a coil marketed as higher voltage than factory will not actually make a hotter spark. The voltage required to jump a specific plug gap is determined by the charge density in the cylinder, so that “million Volt” coil will spark at 10,000 Volts just like the original HEI or points setup.
Fun71 so glad you're back from that hiatus. You were missed and I said as much several times on this site. Here's to your presence being steady and uninterrupted...
I know you are not a fan of videos that take forever to get to the point. But this one should be right up your alley. And I think you will appreciate it. Joe I think you will as well.
Here is the final nail in the coffin of "HEI is a performance Mod".
Anthony Defeo AKA Uncle Tony of the UTG channel on YouTube and formerly a writer for the lauded magazine Cars Illustrated. Proved via a self conducted experiment that HEI proponents biggest claim to fame a "better spark" is bullshit. The kicker is he proved this 45 years ago. But luckily decided to repeat the experiment on UTG 5 years ago. Here it is below, for those inpatient it is only 6 minutes long but I will cut to the chase for you in written word. HEI has no superior spark.
In either case, you may want to brush up on "significant digits". Just because a calculator can spit out digits to 20 decimals, doesn't mean that its accurate to that. You'd NEVER reliably capture the difference in ET from 1.2 HP difference.
Yes, your comment verifies exactly why I posted the calculators specs. And exactly why I disregarded the margin of error in this shootout for this instance. Even if its calculable the difference is minute. Swapping to HEI from points for additional performance is a waste of time and money.
Originally Posted by jensenracing77
We need a like button
We have always needed a like button.
Originally Posted by jensenracing77
I always looked at planned obsolescence as more a conspiracy but i am seeing it more and more.
It's an absolute, and unfortunately an integral part of capitalism.
The action of verbal justification for HEI being a positive modification is part of capitalism...
One thing an HEI will never have is point bounce.
One thing a points system will never have is a module failure.
You're likely going to at minimum carry a spare points set or spare module in the car.
Choose your sword, stab it in, time it and go. WIN-WIN.
Excellent comment, 69HO43, that one rings true. I'll pack an extra I/M in my trunk and call it a day. I'll stick with that sword (especially since all my cars are post 1974), and roll with it.
I was in auto shop class in high school when the HEI's very first first came out for GM cars. The shop teacher really talked 'em up, so much so we all thought he had stock in GM. He never shut up about how great it was. Hmmmmm.
All said and done would I convert an original points car to HEI, no unless points replacements disappeared. Would I convert a mint 1976 455 442 etc to points, no. But overall I believe the points car will always get you home even when they are deteriorating vs hit or miss with the HEI and no backup module. And the peak performance difference from posted results in my 2nd post of this thread of 1.2 hp means the HEI car at a 3500 lbs test weight would run an 11.565 to a 11.575 with points.
The power differences is within the test error allowance. So both made the same power. Problem with points is they start bouncing at 4300 rpm. Fix is add a stiffer sping and wear the cam that opens/shuts them.
HEI, carry a module in the glove box and never have an issue.
The other problem with points is what you can buy today is garbage many times DOA out of the box.
In the 1960s and 70s we used HD points and didn't have a problem with point bounce, at least not on an Olds motor that rarely goes over 5,000 RPM. C'mon people, 90% of the cars here are only driven to cruise night and back. Are you really worried about point bounce?
The power differences is within the test error allowance. So both made the same power. Problem with points is they start bouncing at 4300 rpm. Fix is add a stiffer sping and wear the cam that opens/shuts them.
HEI, carry a module in the glove box and never have an issue.
The other problem with points is what you can buy today is garbage many times DOA out of the box.
Where are you getting all your falsehoods and mis-information ?
I have never had points bounce and I have spun Olds engines past 6,000 RPM's !!!!!! Even when you double spring points, the plastic "rubbing block" on the movable side of the points wears, NOT the distributor lobes !!!!! Thats precisely WHY the nylon rubbing block is used.
In the 1960s and 70s we used HD points and didn't have a problem with point bounce, at least not on an Olds motor that rarely goes over 5,000 RPM. C'mon people, 90% of the cars here are only driven to cruise night and back. Are you really worried about point bounce?
The o/p was quoting a test from the late 60's when owners would drive them and use the power, not putt around like granny.
I'm not worried about bounce as much as the quality of the parts today frankly suck. I've had 3 sets of points that new out of box were DOA. If you are going to run then, find old stock.
Where are you getting all your falsehoods and mis-information ?
I have never had points bounce and I have spun Olds engines past 6,000 RPM's !!!!!! Even when you double spring points, the plastic "rubbing block" on the movable side of the points wears, NOT the distributor lobes !!!!! Thats precisely WHY the nylon rubbing block is used.
Put it on a sun machine and then test that claim of no points bounce.
