nukesec1

Most of you on here have been around awhile and know there is the Camaro White Book and the Corvette Black Book. If you don't know or have never heard of either of them then I am surprised. These books tell the tale of Camaros and Corvettes from day one. Year by year... production numbers, options, colors, engine / tranny combos, and a little history on each model year etc..... It's all in "the Book." The Camaro or Corvette Bible to any Camro or Covette owner. Is there such a thing for Oldsmobile? Or anything close to it? Or any reading material any of you suggest? My lovely wife is standing over my shoulder right now and sighing and healthy sigh....."Your looking for ANOTHER book?" Wives just don't understand that you may someday need to know information like the upper A arm from a '94 Roadmaster is the same one used on a '78 Z28. That is important info if your junk yard shopping! Most women don't understand this. She scoffed when I bought the '78 Z28 factory assembly manual. That was a very important book to have when I resto-altered the Z. So is there books out there that anyone can suggest that are Olds specific? My library is already huge, but there is always room for more!

jaunty75

One book I always found helpful is Dennis Casteele's "Cars of Oldsmobile", written in 1981. Mr. Casteele was the long-time editor of the Oldsmobile Club of America's monthly magazine "Journey with Olds." He had diabetes and died young (age 49) in 1995. This is way out of print, and the copies available start at $50.


Another good book that came out in 1997 to commemorate the 100th anniversary of Olds is "Setting the Pace" by Helen Jones Earley and James Walkinshaw. Lots of good production info in this one, and it can be had on Amazon for much less money. It appears that some sellers still have NOS copies. I don't think this one is still being printed. Walkshaw and Earley were Oldsmobile employees, and Earley was the contact person at the Olds History Center for many years. She had the honorary title "First Lady of Oldsmobile." She died in 2005 at the age of 88.


Mr. Casteele also wrote a book called "4-4-2: A Source Book." I don't know anything about this one.


I'm sure there are other books.



Actually, I'd never heard of either.

Diego

Those books are nothing like the White or Black Books.

If there was production information that existed, it would be nice to have, but Olds people are at a loss and have to resort to poorly written tomes.

jaunty75

Gosh, I guess we'll have no choice but to just kill ourselves.

Diego

Well, you *do* have a choice - contribute to this site and help assemble the information so Oldsmodudes aren't left in the dark.

However, I am not averse to suicide because I can't pretend to walk in your shoes. ;-)

jaunty75

I don't know what you're talking about here, anyway, because production information DOES exist, and in the books I mentioned. It might not be broken down to the level it is in the Chevy books, where you can probably find out how many Chevelles were built on Tuesdays when it was partly cloudy and the Red Sox were on a three-game winning streak, but it's not nothing.

Allan R

Toooo funny my friend.....I read this to my sarcastometer and it hit the orange zone.


LOL.

Diego, don't take things so personal. Words don't say what a chat around the table will. And yes, there's plenty of resource material in writing for you to absorb. Some on this site, some on the web, some at the public library...just depends on your motivation. FYI, the "poorly written tomes" you speak of?? Where dey at?? C'mon bro, there's LOTS of well written info out there, same as with other brands.

jaunty75

I did wonder what the @%#@% he meant by the "poorly written tomes" comment. No, these are not Shakespeare, but I doubt the Chevy books are, either. Has he ever read any of the books I mentioned or any others about Olds? We're interested in production numbers here, anyway, so we're not looking for elegant prose as much as we are tables of data.

Diego

What part of the wasn't understood?

What about the 442 Resto Guide, or whatever it's called?

Pontiac people have had Fred Simmonds to tabulate production figures, and they have PHS for their invoices.

Ford people have the Marti Report.

Chevy people have a very rare book called "Tailfins and Bowties" and some other production info floating around, which is why the White and Black Books exist.

Mopar people have scattered information floating around, as well as Galen Govier.

What do Olds people have? Precious little. Believe me - I grew up when the hobby was starting, and I probably have seen every book peddled by Motorbooks during that time. Then came the Net, but what has changed when it comes to Oldsmobile production information?

Not much!

Diego

Since the issue of language has been brought up, let's just say that I was being figurative, not literal. There's nothing analogous for Olds in respect to the other books mentioned.

jaunty75

And so what? Does that mean we should give up the hobby? Sell all our Oldsmobiles and buy Fords? I don't think so. Just because there is more out there about these other makes than there is about Olds doesn't mean that there's nothing out there about Olds. Yes, all those Mopar, Ford, Chevy, and Pontiac people have it so much better than we poor Olds folks that, as I say, we're all lining up even as I write this to march off the nearest cliff because our lives are not worth living.

Diego

I take it you cannot improve my answer to the original question?

No wonder you want to walk off a cliff.

jaunty75

You mean improve UPON your answer? No, I cannot improve upon your "answer" because I don't see that you answered anything. Unless you call "nothing but poorly written tomes" (or words to that effect) an answer to a question about where one might find production information about Oldsmobiles. I don't. There IS information about Oldsmobile production in the books I mentioned, and I DID try to offer a constructive answer to the question that began this thread. You have not.

Diego

Ah, I see . . . you hang out on ROP?

By the way, have you read either of the Chevy books mentioned?

jaunty75

Not at all. I don't even know what "ROP" is.

jaunty75

No. Is there some reason I should have? I don't doubt they're wonderful books, but I don't own a collectible Chevy and never have. If I ever do, I probably will, but they're not of interest right now.

Diego

If you had read them, you'd have a perfect understanding what I'm talking about.

http://books.google.com/books?id=zie...age&q=&f=false

BIGJERR

I do.............

Diego

You may be on ROP, but you certainly aren't being so difficult!

BIGJERR

Everyone's a opinionated a-hole azz kicker on the internetz...........

Allan R

Diego, Something to remember from when you joined back in Aug.....



Diego,
Anything can happen on any forum. But the whole idea is that it benefits the community. Your views on Chev and Pontiac are at the top of your list by your own admission. How and what you say something on this forum may create an adverse reaction. We don't mind that your interest goes beyond Olds, so do most of ours too. Just remember that your statements appear negative to Olds on an Oldsmobile forum, ok?

Suggest you PM Wmachine (Kurt) if you want a lot of details on production and stuff. The guy is a vault of information. If there's a book that will satisfy your needs, he probably knows the title.

If you want information about pricing, yes we've got it. It's compiled in the SPECS guide that was given to Oldsmobile salesmen. If you want other ordering info about production numbers, plants, VINs, the Hurst Olds program, 442s, Olds technology, racing affiliations, prototype and concept cars etc, yes there are books on that too. It's just not all crammed into a white or black book such as you're looking for. Who knows, maybe some day someone will put one together for Olds and it will be the Platinum book that makes all others dust catchers. All I can say is that this site is meant to provide community information about Olds to Olds guys. In-fighting is counter productive, and can easily be mediated by a moderator.

I hope this thread has reached the end of the "bickering" stage. No reply necessary.

Jaunty: ROP is Real Olds Power - another Olds website. From what I've heard it gets pretty heated and political at times. Something CO tries very hard to stay away from.

WhatIf

I like this restoration guide myself. It has a couple errors, but it's pretty good. Seems like most of the information from this guide has made it to 442.com or the wiki thingy over the years.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/087...=507846#reader

jaunty75

I don't need to read those books to understand that they are good books. That's not the point of this conversation, and it hasn't been since the beginning.

Jamesbo

"I hope this thread has reached the end of the "bickering" stage. No reply necessary."

X 2

wmachine

Woah!!! Hold on a minute, guys!!
jaunty75, Allan R, I think you have Diego all wrong here.
Diego is right, Oldsmobile is way down the totem pole when it come to having organized information. It is not a slam, but a statement of truth. The original poster nukesec1 was asking if we have a "book" like Camaro or Vette owners and the answer is NO.
Jaunty75, if you saw those books it would make you cry (because we don't have one)
And what Diego *did* say (that apparently go lost in the shuffle here) is "Well, you *do* have a choice - contribute to this site and help assemble the information so Oldsmodudes aren't left in the dark.". Which is exactly right too, and I'm sure he means to contribute too!
So I think we're all after the same thing here: Good information. And "we" (Oldsmobile) have a long way to go to get more compiled.
Allan R, you're quite right. This is a great forum and we need to keep it productive.

jaunty75

I don't think so. It wasn't WHAT Diego was trying to say. It was the WAY he said it.

Well, duh! What does he think we've been doing since day one if not "contributing to the site?" He would do well to heed his own advice. Nothing was lost in the shuffle here because there was nothing TO lose. His comment about "contributing" was nowhere to be found in his original post.

WhatIf

Just to note that the restoration guide I linked above (from Amazon) is out of print and only available second hand. Looks like a $60 book now.

jaunty75

I saw that. The Camaro White Book cited by Nukesec1 at the beginning of this thread is even more. The cheapest is over $70 at Amazon, at least for the most recent version (2004, apparently). The 1996 version is cheaper at about $53, but the version before that, 1993, is over $80.

The Corvette Black Book is available new for a much more wallet-friendly $12.00.

Diego

Alan:

Why are you taking me to task when I wasn't the one being obnoxious?

As a writer by profession with a degree in small group behavior, I am quite aware of the nuances of an imperfect medium such as this (although that doesn't prevent me from being lazy and not proofing my posts). There is nothing in my initial posts that should have created any kind of ripple. Additionally, what is the problem when someone uses his experiences with Brand X to answer the question correctly? If there is a problem with that, then I'm on the wrong board.

Why should I PM him? I'm not the one who asked the question. However, I feel I'm rather aware of what's going on in the musclecar world when it comes to obscure information, and adding my $0.02 to answer the question should be met with positive, not negative, criticism . . . hell, the dude never bothered to look into what the White or Black Books were all about!

So you mean to tell me there's information out there that specifies how many 442s (if not all Olds A-bodies) were built with AC in 1970? How about how many Agean Aqua cars were built?

I will be surprised if you answer in the affirmative. However, this is what the original poster was asking.

Are you a moderator? If so, I can't say I'm pleased by your approach. If you're not a mod, then ditto.

From Jaunty75:
Um, I'm sorry, but the first post of the thread specifically mentioned these books.

Thanks to W-Machine for understanding - he's a supreme example of the gentleman manner of his response(s).

----

I came here to learn about Oldses in a positive manner, being that ROP is full of blowhards and worse. If this thread is a taste of what I can expect in the future, there are plenty of other sites in which I can encounter friendly hobbyists who like to discuss cars. Does the Olds hobby really need another site that suffers due to negativity from a bunch of Boomer men?

Diego

By the way:

http://product.half.ebay.com/The-Gen...foQQprZ1200406

citcapp

Ok guys this thread is getting a little out of hand. Lets let it cool off for a while. Everyone here has made a point or two and if we were sitting around a table and could pick up on each others body language, laugh and smile a little I am sure we would not be where we are at right now. I would prefer not to have to close this thread as it has the ability to pass a lot of good information back and forth.

Thanks brothers

Diego

So let's continue:

Is there any information on Oldsmobile muscle out there as requested by the original poster? Or must the Olds enthusiast rely on general production figures?

Allan R

Kurt,
Thanks for clarifying this. What you wrote is much easier to understand and more sensitive to read. I can say that my comments were not intended as malicious or snotty, it was just an attempt to help everyone play nice. It does require understanding on both sides to make a conversation work. Citcapp is right, it would be easier to understand as a conversation in person over a beer or something where you can gauge someones reactions and clarify issues more spontaneously. Thanks citcapp.

So now the big challenge is: Is there anyone out there who can take on the task of compiling an Oldsmobile book? It's probably a monstrous task and would be a great research pastime for someone that has a lot of time on their hands and is an Olds enthusiast. Gotta put the biases aside in this type of project. I think it would be a great addition to the provenance of Oldsmobile. I'm not retired yet, and don't have the luxury of spare time. I don't have a copy of the white or black book to compare it with, but I'm sure they would be excellent benchmarks.

And Kurt, I'm hoping that Diagos' continuing question is anwered by your reply and reminder to the community...... Sorry there was a misunderstanding in the first place, and I thank you for stepping in; I was not aware that Oldsmobile information hadn't been as well documented, so to my benefit I've learned from this thread. I don't have anything more to add to this thread that would be productive.

wmachine

Sorry Allen, its too late. You already *did* add more positive input to this thead~ Yes, Citcapp does understand the dynamics of the forum.

I'm not sure if a book is the right route to go. There is a lot of production figures that are in the "B&W" books mentioned that simply don't exist anymore for Olds. And how broad can a book be?
At this point in time, I suggest 2 things:
1. Continue to build the Olds Wiki.
2. In conjunction with the Olds Club of America, we start to compile standards for *every* Olds model as completely as possible.
These are *both* monumental tasks of done in depth. But both can be worked on by many people.
In a nutshell.

BIGJERR

Setting the pace
Oldsmobile's first 100 years
is the only Oldsmobile book i own.....

wolfman98

OK let me start off by saying that I have never seen the books on corvettes or camaro's and it seems quite apparent that there is no Olds gold Book. It would be nice but that is going to take someone or some people who would be willing to do a lot of research to gather all the info to compile in a book. I am quite certain that these other books did not begin print from day one of camaro or corvette and subsequently get updated every year. maybe someone may try to compile a book on 442's or Cutlass' but it would be somewhat more difficult to do on all Oldsmobile's. Is there a book on all Chevy's from day one? how about Ford or Dodge/ Chrysler?
Diego you point pout that you have seen "almost" every muscle car publication around so you should know if there is such a publication on Olds shouldn't you? Your observation of the lack of such info was seen as a criticism of "Olds Enthusiasts" for not having compiled similar information into a book. I for one was not offended but then again I have nowhere near the level of "Enthusiasm" as many on this site. If it was sitting around a table over a beer then it may have been a completely different response. I think that one of the reasons may be that the Olds muscle car is still somewhat affordable and the number of people who are true enthusiasts is less than that of other American muscle cars. there has been way more hype and money in say the Corvette as a muscular than the 442.
It would be nice to achieve but it takes a lot of time and money to publish said book. maybe we should start taking up a collection. You think GM would help out by doing some research maybe they will kick in a few bucks
I want to make this perfectly clear , I have no idea what I am talking about and I mean to offend no one

jaunty75

Actually, my completely unsubstantiated belief is that the exact opposite is true. The ONLY way that there can be the level of production detail evident in these books is if someone has been keeping the records since day 1. Unless GM kept records at this level of detail and preserved them, no one can go back and try to reconstruct production information down to the level of how many cars were produced that were blue and had air conditioning. You certainly cannot go back and reassemble that information today, and I imagine that doing so would have been difficult even only after a few years since the model year in question let alone the 40+ years we're talking now.

Somebody, or some group of people, realized, back in the day, that compiling the information the Corvette and Camaro books have in them would be worth doing for people in the future (us) who might want to have that information. While there might not be a book about it, I understand that the Pontiac History Society or whatever it's called has detailed information, too, although it may not be as detailed as the Chevy info. Unfortunately for Olds, this kind of information was not kept when it was available at the time, and it's most likely gone forever.

Remember, the Olds History Center (when it was in existence), for cars older than 1977, if you gave them your vehicle's VIN, couldn't even tell you where the car was originally sold or who the original, selling dealer was. That seems to me to be very basic information that might have been kept for several years in a rapidly accessible location and then maybe moved to an archival site as time passed. But apparently this was not done. Starting in 1977, these records were kept, so the owner of, say, a 1980 Cutlass can find out where his car was originally sold, who was the dealer, and he can get a copy of the invoice.

This suggests that the GM History Center has every invoice for every Olds sold since 1977. I don't know, but I would imagine that those invoices might have option info listed on them (maybe not). But someone with a zillion years on their hands could go through each invoice for the 1 million plus Oldmsobiles sold in 1977 and catalog, organize, and compile all the option info. Then do this for every year between 1977 and 2004, and you've got something perhaps like the Chevy and Camaro books. Who wants to take this on?

mugzilla

I am so glad my ''70 442 was relatively unmolested when I got it ...

wolfman98

Too bad though I think that GM Canada kept better records for Olds and other models than in the U.S. I guess with them down there they pick models they thought would sell better or be more collectable? I wonder if cadillac had better records?

Alb

Man, I love this site.
Alb