1970cs

I received my sheet from Cincy about 3 weeks and reviewed it.
Not to pleased with point deductions!
Under engine: Rust on exhaust sheild.
We have discussed this the past 3 years at the judges meeting, "no deductions for rust on exhaust pieces" -2 points

Under carriage:Exhaust tip detail.
I have a factory stainless steel dual tip outlet. FYI there is not even carbon build up inside of the tips. -2 points

Not to go into a super long dissertation. 3 other areas on the car were deducted for -2 points each for "detail" I also noticed 4 judges signed off on the sheet. I was present during the judging, only 2 were present.
Okay, I will agree with the location given, but there should be a cause i.e. water spots, dirt/dust and grease oil stains. My previous sheets showed location and issue i.e. "water ring in cup holder" no problem location and issue to correct!

IMO, owners need to know what they missed.

I have filed a protest with the new head OCA judge. So far his responses to repeated phone calls have been terribly slow 4 days after the fact for call back! Emailed sheet to him 13 days ago with no response and follow a up e-mail 8 days after shipping off the sheet!

I called his cell phone yesterday and he did acknowledge the emails and he would call me back yesterday evening, NO call back

Vehicle 2004 Alero GLS coupe

Your opinions?

Pat
OCA #29119
OCA senior judge
Former head chairmen of Homecoming
Past president R.E. Olds chapter

Oldsmaniac

This is why I will never have a judged car at a National event, too much BS and too many people (judges) with incorrect or limited knowledge.

cutlassjoe

X2 on this one. I enjoy driving too much to worry about what someone else thinks is correct. Just too nit picky for me. If I had an all original 442 maybe it would be different. I go to shows to see old friends and meet new ones and talk about cars.

redoldsman

I am in the process of detailing the engine on my 54 and I am going back with original type hose clamps and the appropriate decals and the correct color paint. That is just for my own satisfaction. I would never put my car in an OCA show. There is nothing wrong with it but it is just not my thing. I enjoy local shows where you can visit and talk with other folks and spectators. If it is not fun and I don't enjoy it, I am not going to do it.

mrolds69

I've judged at the OCA Nats, and been judged a number of times. I've seen crazy judging things, let's just say that. You lost 10 points total? Isn't that still a 1st Place? Did you lose BOC? IF so...did you look closely at the car that won BOC? Was that car better than yours, in your opinion? Personally, I love Nats competition and detest rinky- dink Lions shows or whatever. I don't know the new head judge at all. The truth is...there's really not much he can do, he didn't judge the car, he's never seen it, "detail" is more like opinion related. If they docked you for having the wrong exhaust tips then you have a good complaint. The rust on exhaust? Yeah...that's been talked about as acceptable for years now.

59-59-59

You asked for it, so here it goes. Please get a life. I can't believe people actually care about stupid things, like everything you have just mentioned. If you were actually having fun and relaxing in Cincinatti, you wouldn't even have to post this crybaby rant

tecar442

The guys who judged your car are volunteers. Not pros. Hopefully they used the same criteria when judging every car in your class. From my experience, they don't make up things. They are more than likely not experts. They are also car owners and probably knowledgeable about their own cars but not on every car in the class. They can only judge on fit, finish, and cleanliness.
They do their best. Nobody likes to lose but when cars are as nice as most are at the Nats, they have to look for fly sh*t . Apparently there was a better car in your class, get over it. It's supposed to be fun. Don't be a whine a**.

redoldsman

I love Nats competition and detest rinky- dink Lions shows or whatever.

Different strokes for different folks. Funny, I have never seen a Lions Club show. It should all be about fun. I am going to a show in Natchitoches, Louisiana next month called "Return to the Fifties" where there are over 300 cars. My wife and I are going to have a great time. If we win a trophy, fine. Not winning will not keep me from having a good time. I do however understand your frustration.

jensenracing77

This is why I can not do the judging thing. I don't mind if they judge my car but I don't care what it gets. I love building the car but HATE cleaning them. I lost BOC one time because of a smudge on a clutch pedal. That was right after he ask me to start it so obviously it was going to have a smudge on the clutch pedal. After that I had zero interest in the judging side of it. I also have no desire in being a judge for the same reason. I don't look for smudges when I look at a car. I look at them for what they are. Nothing gets me more excited than seeing a dirty unrestored car. I am also glad that many of you guys do go for all the points you can get because it preserves the cars for the future.

jaunty75

I'm curious as to what you expect the head judge to do other than sympathize with your position and promise to try to do better next time. As asked by mrolds69, you lost 10 points, so didn't you still end up with a 1st place?


I agree with all of those who don't get their car judged. Unless every car at a show is judged by default, I never enter my cars into judging. I know they're not perfect. I don't need to be told it. I just enjoy them for what they are.

I also remember that these judges are all volunteers and don't need the hassle of complaints, legitimate as they might be. No two people see a car the same way.

I imagine being head judge of any car club is one of the most thankless jobs out there, and I commend anyone willing to do it.

Oldsmaniac

Another reason why my car will never be entered for judge-ing at the Nationals!

Octania

My one experience with an OCA judging was very negative. Not so much what they took points off for, but the way the whole thing was handled. They refused to give me the results at first. Complete idiots. They have NEVER explained why, but they did produce the results after some legal threats. I recall little of it but the name Mestad comes to mind. Someone actually lied to my face and told me the results did not exist. I have it all saved in the computer somewhere.

Oh, and the "perfect" '66 or '67 there- it took me about 15m but I finally found a common rookie error on it. Almost undetectable. And, I am not an EXPERT in all the 66-67 details.

I am tempted to bring the '68 unfinished or better yet the POS '85 and go for Pig Points. How LOW of a score can I get, w/o cheating. Better yet build a car with all the ugliest parts, but still runs and goes. Mangled engine lift loop, rot like that. Have some fun with it.

Joffroi

I started buying classic Oldsmobiles because I liked the look of them and how much fun they were to drive. As long as you are happy with it then do whatever you want to it and enjoy it. However, if you enter a competition that has a reputation of being extremely picky (with reason or without), you just need to be prepared for the outcome.

Octania

Including lies, deception, and ignorance.

Koda

There's more authenticity in a 100% original unrestored car than there will ever be in a 100% restored car. I won't have a car of mine judged. If it has to be judged to be in a show, fine, but I'll leave before the trophies are handed out and you can keep mine.

I won't judge, either. My worst experience was at a show at North Putnamville High in Indiana. I got dinged 0 for trunk equipment, when I still have everything original in great shape, and 1 out of 5 for wheels when my wheel discs are perfect. Then the guy docked me for clear coat on a couple body panels (the car had been wrecked, sorry about that). Guy pissed me off enough that I am glad he walked away after that.

I usually leave the hood down too. If people ask to see it, I show, and we talk. Not for judges, though. That goes for current cars, and that will go for the 67 when it gets done too, even though it will have that nice track pack air cleaner on it. Only decent people get to see that, lol.

1970cs

Thank for your support! I will take the high road. It was your opinion of whiny rant.

In fact just pointing out that I did volunteer my time to judge while there. Yes no time to relax! I also took the time to organize a dinner for all of this forums members who wanted to show.

My point is that in my earlier post that I need to know what to correct!

Pat

TK-65

OCA judging is not concourse judging. They look for condition, cleanliness, and appearance. Correctness isnt high on the agenda. Because the judges rarely know what is correct. Thats fine they are all volunteers so I expect them not to know everything. And thats why I stay by the car so if they have questions I can answer them.

I have vintage S/W gages in my car. I was gigged 5 points for them in Cincinnati, as I should have been. A car a few spaces away had Hurst wheels, which should be a 20 point deduction. The judges decided the wheels were period correct so no points were taken away

I knew the system was very inconsistent but that made me say WTF. Its things like this that make people question OCA judging.

TK-65

Dont mess with it. Odds are the next show they wont notice it. But they may notice something else.

Oldskeeper

Pat, I was there and didn't know about the dinner!
Had I known my wife and I would have attended.
We will be in Milwaukee should you want to do the dinner thing again.
Steve, Jaswest

starfire

X3.

I gave up on OCA judging after my '68 got a 1st in 2007 and a 3rd in 2008. No consistency at all. Judges do a hard job, but they are volunteers. You never know what you'll get year to year.

jaunty75

It's consistent if your car went downhill in condition between 2007 and 2008.

rcdynamic88

Just be thankful you don't have a modified Oldsmobile. The OCA treats you as if you have committed a sin if you like to modify your car with aftermarket parts.

Class (16a) 1900-1967 Modified!


67 years worth of different models and body styles all jammed into one class! Its fricking ridiculous! So if you put some 18" wheels on your 72 442 you no longer get to park with the rest of the 72 442's. Detail out the 455 you put in a 65 Cutlass with polished aluminum heads and make your engine so clean you could eat off of it, you no longer get to be with the rest of the 65 Cutlasses.

Personally, I just can't do the restored to original thing. Too restrictive and kind of boring for my taste. I can appreciate the effort it takes to make a car look the way it rolled of the assembly line, I'm sure its not an easy thing to get right. However, I enjoy my cars by building them the way I want them to be, no rules or restrictions accept the ones in my own mind. I go to car shows to have a good time with other folks that like cars, otherwise why even be there. It means the world to me when someone stops to look at my car and talk about what has been done to it to make it different from the way it was originally. To have someone looking for whats "wrong" with your car just seems way out of whack to me, I would much rather have people admiring the work I put into it, instead of criticizing me for having an incorrect clamp on my PCV valve or some other inane item.

1970cs

Yes, we did have a couple of post with some form or fashion of 2014 nationals in the title. I will admit they were sidebars in the threads. Next year when the time is close, I will do a post about 2015 nationals dinner meeting.

Pat

1970cs

Update, I did receive a call from the Mike Pruitt last night! He has referred me back to Ed Konsmo, since that show was under his tenure. Mike did say that in his opinion that the "rusty exhaust piece" should be rescinded.

Mrolds69: Yes, being this was a senior class, it was a strong field! but only 7 total years that qualified.

Jaunty: In reading your post, I believe that you are correct on all points. I am sure it is an exercise in futility! Also in the rule book all any issues should be brought to the attention of the event judge and any further should be addressed to OCA head judge. I did contact Greg Minges about this. He has also referred me to Mike or Ed for any ruling.

TK-65: I was present during the judging of my car. Only question asked was how many miles on the car. What I can't figure out why the car was judged by only 2 when four signed off on the sheet. When I was called to my car to my car, my crew stopped judging so we would have continuity.

In Springfield, the crew did an outstanding job! They asked questions in order to determine what was correct or incorrect. When asked I told them yes that is wrong or has been added ding me for it.

Pat

jaunty75

Your laments are all perfectly understandable, but, speaking as someone who has judged cars at Olds chapter car shows for many years, the biggest problem with modified cars at judged shows is that there is no standard. At least "original" or "showroom" or "factory" condition is a standard everyone understands and can agree to, and it's fairly easy to identify when something is non-original.

With modified cars, the only thing you can use as a standard against which to judge a car is "quality of workmanship." But this is a subjective thing, and it takes no account of quantity of modifications. One guy might have spent five minutes and $100 replacing a few things under the hood while another guy might have spent five years and $10,000 changing just about everything. Both are considered modified, and both will be judged in the same class. But it's hardly fair to compare them. It's like judging a Picasso against a Rembrandt. Modified cars are really works of art, and judging art is by definition subjective. But the modified class and the conditions imposed upon cars that cause them to end up in that class are all we have, and we have to work within those constraints.

I said above that I don't enter my cars into judging if I have a choice, and I strive for originality. I would double my statement and state that I would REALLY not enter it into judging if my car would go into a modified class.

jensenracing77

May need a little perspective. Everyone has a hobby or some thing that they enjoy doing. I am not to big into the points thing but I was huge into racing 4 wheelers. I took it VERY serious and was always a front runner. The mid pack guys took it serious and always tried to become a front runner. The back of the pack guys just couldn't understand why we were so serious about it and they were just there for the fun only. I think it is just all in what you want to do. If he has something that is not right it should be corrected no matter how small. I know there are people that take it to far and complain about things they shouldn't but I don't think this is the case here.

Oldskeeper

Back a few years ago I had both my cars judged at an OCA meet, I received a 975 for my coupe and a 950 for my convertible. The guy judging my convertible complained that my exhaust manifold were pitted, my comment back was that GM installed rough castings on this car. I was told that I should remove them, glass bead blast them and grind the finish and epoxy paint them so they would be correct. I might have been out of line when I told the judge he was stupid for thinking that would be original on a 63 full size. When I asked him why he would think this was correct he responded that is what he did to his cutlass.
I have never had a car judged since and only if my children twist my arm will I have one judged again.
I have judged at these meets and have tried to be fair by letting the owner know what was wrong and what was missing, I have even told them where or who carries the missing parts.
I'm there now to have fun and enjoy the company of others who have the same interests as us.
Steve

starfire

Didn't. It was the exact same car.

jaunty75

I didn't think otherwise. I was just having fun.

1970cs

Last update. I have spoken with at that time the head judge Ed Konsmo, he received the info from Mike Pruitt and Greg Minges. They have rescinded the points for the exhaust piece.

Apparently my original post was misconstrued! My point and will I convey this statement for the second time! It was about getting it right, not the points!!!! The point deductions were given for transparency.
All prior sheets had proper explanations and location.

I was also contacted by one of the new OCA judging committee members and great lakes zone rep Ken Nicholas. My summarization in speaking with all parties is that not all the people that come to judge are following the guide lines set forth in the judging manual and the meeting.

I have ALWAYS volunteered my time to judge. I have lead my judging crew for the last couple of years, this year we took the time to review each sheet at the end of vehicle to make sure we had it correct.

It was mentioned by Ed to write down some of my thoughts for Mike to go over so maybe we can improve the consistency and quality of judging.

Pat
OCA senior judge

rustyroger

Maybe two people turned up with cars that were better than yours.


I doubt if I will ever have a car that's wins any prizes at a serious show, but I do appreciate the time, money, and effort others have put into getting their cars in tip top shape hoping to win a trophy. Why shouldn't their efforts be recognised?.
When I attend a show I will stop for the awards presentation and applaud the winners, after all if everyone turned up in a not so great car like mine the show would look like a historic parking lot.


Roger.

starfire

Roger, at the OCA each car is judged against itself, not against other cars. Therefore there can be numerous 1st place winners in one class. I wasn't complaining about my car's placement, just pointing out how inconsistent the judging is. One group of judges in '07 thought my car was a 1st place car. A different set of judges in '08 thought the exact same car was a 3rd place car. If that is typical then there is no reason to ever get upset about OCA judging as it just doesn't matter as not all of them know what they are doing.

rustyroger

Do you mean the cars are judged as to their condition?, 1st being perfect, 2nd a minor glitch, 10th a parts car?. If so, my apologies for misunderstanding you.
My idea of awards for cars at a show is 1st prize goes to the best car present (in the judges opinion, misguided or otherwise), 2nd the next best and so on, with other trophies for best paint, best GM, Ford or whatever.
I won a prize for best project once because I has parked a rustbucket by the judging area.




Roger

jaunty75

Yup. Cars are judged against an absolute standard, not against each other. You could have 10 cars entered in a certain class. If all are good enough, all could earn a first place. Or none of them could.


This is the way your local cruise-in does it because, unlike the OCA, they don't have an infinite supply of trophies.

jaunty75

On a more serious note, your local cruise-in is different from an OCA show in several ways. First, any make can attend, not just Oldsmobiles. So the class of, say, 1950s cars could have a '52 Hudson, a '55 Packard, a '57 Chevy, and a '58 Oldsmobile, all competing against each other. No one judging that show is going to have knowledge of what all of these cars looked like and what was correct equipment on each of them when they left the factory. So it's much easier to just compare them to each other in terms of condition.

Second, these local cruise-ins and car shows very much want you to come back next year, so they want you to go home happy. They couldn't care less, in the end, how many trophies they gave out and to whom.

I attended a show once where the trophies were given to the "Top 50" cars. I've seen a number of shows do this. Instead of having classes and first, second, and third place awards in each, they simply give out 50 trophies (or 40 or 75 or whatever) to the "top" 50 cars without making distinctions among them. So if you got a trophy, you knew your car was at least no worse than #50. If you didn't get a trophy, your car was no better than #51.

Well, in this show, only 47 cars showed up. So everyone went home with a trophy. I remember the announcer saying simply "everyone come up and get your trophy" as there was no need to call out names. So did those trophies mean much in terms of where your car stood amongst all the others? No. Basically, the trophy was an award for simply attending the show.

But did their owners go home happy? Yes, they did.

Tedd Thompson

Remember it's their game and you choose to play it their way. For about 3 years I did the points car show thing and my car became a better car because of it. At that time I couldn't judge because of physical problems but if I did I would have had major deficits in knowledge in even a one year difference than my car.There is just a big difference between a 56 and a 55 or a 54. Mistakes were made,I lost a point here and gained a point there that they missed, pretty much a wash I never missed getting a first place often deservedly lost best of class. Remember these judges are volunteers just out there to learn themselves and help you better your car, nothing life or death, it's just a game and it should be thought of as such.

I don't blame them for not releasing the points sheets till later in the week, who would want to argue over exhaust manifold rust or a rock chip and miss the rest of the show that they have helped put on. My hat is off for the guys and gals who put in the extra hours and discomfort of heat, sun or rain to put on a show for nothing more rewarding than knowing they are promoting a hobby they love for others to enjoy....Just my thoughts...Tedd

BlackGold

Roger, the OCA does give out a Best of Class award to the best 1st Place winner in each class. I'm not in the judging thing, but as I recall 1st Place is awarded to any car scoring 900+ points, 2nd Place for 800-899, and 3rd Place for700-799.


It's a stretch to say the cars are judged against an absolute standard. If that were true there would be a lot more consistency. It's not uncommon for the same car to get substantially different scores in different years.

jaunty75

I think that's the goal. Whether or not it happens is a different thing.

The reason there's no consistency is as has been pointed out. The judges are different each time with different levels and types of experience with judging and with the standards they're supposed to use. Any two people can look at the same car and see different things.


Yes, I'd forgotten about the Best of Class award, so there is some judging of the cars against each other.

starfire

No, the BOC is the car with the highest point total in that class. So the car is still judged against itself. But if your car gets 998 points and another car in your class gets 999 points, you don't get BOC. But the points were assigned based on your car, not based on the other car.

starfire

+1 Tedd. Well put.