Olds luvr

I am trying to wrap up my build and have 2 issues..

1st.
My 69 455 motor that I am putting in my 72 came with a starter that is roughly 10.5 inches long and will not fit in place. I put in the starter from my 350 that is about 8.5 inches long. The problem is the gear that spins the flex plate are much smaller then the bigger starter that wont fit. The 350 starter will not engage the flex plate all the way and has slipped the teeth on the starter gear. I was under the impression that besides the torrqe of the starter that they are the same for a 455 and 350 and that the flex plates should be the same too

2nd
I have the motor in the car and all freshly painted and looks great. Put coolant in and found out that the wrong water pump gasket was used (not by me) and is leaking like crazy. any tips on getting the water pump off without destroying the paint? I am thinking a razor blade to cut araound where the pump sits and hope the paint does not peel..

Indy_68_S

1. Somethin' funky going on here. AFAIK, starters, flexplates/flywheels, etc.. are dimensionally the same & interchangeable between 350 & 455. Are you sure your 350 & 455 are both Olds ?!?


2. Don't worry about it too much. I had to adj the timing chain on my freshly painted pretty 350. Just was careful and then did a little touchup paint here & there. Unless you knew where the touchups were and went over it with a magnifying glass, you'd never know. Besides, once the motor is in, it'll be even harder to see any imperfections.

Olds luvr

Hello Indy,

Thanks for the reply. yes, I am sure it is an Olds 455 F block.

oldcutlass

A razor blade run around the gasket joint will keep your paint from peeling. On the starter, do you think possibly there is an issue with the starter drive no fully engaging?

Olds luvr

Hey Eric,

It is possible but it is a newer replacement that I used on the 350 and was functioning before pulling the 350 out a few months ago. Since the other starter is 2 inches longer is that a toronado starter? Shouldnt they still have the same size gear that spins the flexplate?

When the starter is mounted how far should the gear be away from the flex plate? When are starter shims neede?

oldcutlass

Do the 2 starter nose cones look the same and measure the same dimensionally?

There are 2 critical distances, 1 is how far is the starter drive gear away from the flex plate retracted and extend at least 2/3 the way into the flex plate. The other is how deep the gears mesh, I slide a 1/16th drill in between the tip of the starter gear and hollow in between 2 of the flex plate teeth, should be snug.

Olds luvr

Thanks Eric,

Is it odd that the 2 starters have different sized gears?

The 2 starters look the same and have the same shape, 1 is just around 2 inches longer and has 2 screws that hold the motor case.

I was worried that if I go out and buy a new starter tonight that I may run into the same issue.

RetroRanger

pics ?

Olds luvr

I am stuck at work for a tad longer. I should have taken pictures last night when dealing with it. I can take come this evening.

joe_padavano

The diesel starter is considerably larger and heavier than the gas engine starter. The diesel 350 cars actually had to move the driver's side motor mount forward to clear the starter. All gas engine Olds starters will interchange EXCEPT for Toro starters that have the different nose piece.

Olds luvr

Thank you Joe...
I will just go out and buy another starter and hope that the issue goes away... If another starter does not fix this anything else it can be?

joe_padavano

I would suggest that before you spend any money, post a couple of photos of the starters - overall side-by-side photo and one of the nose pieces showing the bendix gear.

oldcutlass

Joe, would the flex plate be different with a Toro starter?

joe_padavano

Only on the FWD 307 cars for some reason - possibly something to do with the TH325-4L transmission. "Real" Toros with the TH425 trans use the same diameter flexplate as RWD Olds motors.

stellar

The diesel starter is longer and has 2 screws holding each field pole shoe i place. It also has a larger pinion on the drive.

Olds luvr

Do the diesel cars use a different flex plate? This 455 came from a guys running project which was a suburban and had the diesel starter attached. What are my options? Can I get a mini starter or can a shop adapt diesel starter parts to the standard starter? Or do I have to take the flex plate off of the 350 to bolt to the 455? Can someone who knows walk me through this? I need to get this done and moving soon and I am getting a tad frantic.

64Rocket

measure the flex plate on the engine now and the flex plate from the 350 Olds.
Sounds to me you have the diesel set up.

Gene

Olds luvr

Gene,
Is there any starters that will work on the diesel flex plate or is swapping it my only option?

Thanks,

nsnarsk65cutlass

Yup diesel starter.

64Rocket

[
Did you measure the two flex plates ?
I'm sure there is a diff, so your best bet is the us the 350 flex plate and starter or get one of the powerhouse #9510 mini starter and be done.
Gene


QUOTE=Olds luvr;743730]Gene,
Is there any starters that will work on the diesel flex plate or is swapping it my only option?

Thanks,[/QUOTE]

Olds luvr

Flex plates appear to be a different size but not by much. Will the powerhouse #9510 work for sure? Where can I find one? I did a quick Google search with no luck

Olds luvr

ok I found the starter but says it will not work with a diesel? Do we know if it will?

64Rocket

Install the file plate from your 350 and use stock starter or get the mini starter
Look at Summit, Jegs, even Amazon, Rock auto, even your local parts house. Summit or Jegs will be the cheapest
PM me if you need more info
Gene

MDchanic

I'm a bit confused here.

It sounds to me as though you have two engines, each with a starter that works on it, but are swapping engines.

If you have all of the parts to make each starter work with an engine, why not swap the parts required to make the rest of the system work?
i.e.: If one engine was set up with a diesel starter, and the diesel starter is too long to fit in the new car, then why not remove the diesel flexplate and install a regular flexplate, which will match the regular starter?
Or, if you like the diesel starter, then why not install the diesel motor mounts (ASSuming they will fit), and install the diesel starter?

As I say, I'm confused, because this seems pretty obvious.

- Eric

Olds luvr

Hello Eric,

I understand the confusion. The main reason is that Since I just got the motor and trans in and buttoned up I am hesitant to drop the trans again to swap the flex plate. Nothing on my build has gone smoothly and am frustrated. So if from an ease stand point if I can get a starter to bolt up and work I would rather do that instead of more rework. If there is no other option then O have to do the swap.

MDchanic

No need to. Just remove the driveshaft and the bellhousing bolts, loosen up the transmission mounts, support the transmission and engine, and slide the trans. back a couple of inches, and you'll have plenty of room to remove the flexplate.




- Eric

rustyroger

Any reason you can't put in the starter that came with the flexplate you have installed?.


Btw I found out the hard way flexplates from diesels, fwd 307 equipped Rivieras and regular rwd Olds gas engines are all different from each other.


Roger.

MDchanic

I think he said it's too long and hits the motor mount.

- Eric

rustyroger

My bad, there is a reason, thanks Eric.


Roger.

Olds luvr

Thanks all for the help... I guess a flex plate swap is not the end of the world and the right thing to do. I guess since it is so close I was just looking for an easy way out

Thank you all as always I truly appreciate all of the input from all of you...

oldcutlass

Is there any way he can swap the front nose and gear drive from the longer starter to the shorter one?

joe_padavano

OK, a little research shows that a regular Olds gas engine starter drive has nine teeth. The diesel starter drive has ten. The larger starter pinion and correspondingly smaller flexplate provides more torque for spinning the high-compression diesel, at the cost of a lower cranking speed. The two starter drives APPEAR to be similar, but I can't say for sure if they can be interchanged. How your engine reacts to the slower cranking speed can only be answered by trial and error, but this may be preferable to swapping the flexplate.

Of course, you'll do the pinion swap, then forget and several years later you'll turn this starter (and special drive pinion) in for an exchange when you need a new starter...

oldcutlass

I thought it would be possible but wasn't sure. Thanks for your input Joe.