Last year I took my car to Dayton and it scored 944. over the last year I addressed/fixed around 30-35 points of the deductions I was given last year. Took it to Springfield this year and dropped 2 points to a 942? Same head judge both years. Anyone else have experience like this? Was hoping to see an improvement for my effort. One really strange deduction was last year I had 4x-1 for radial tires. This year I got 5x-2? My spare is the original bias ply that came with the car new. Why would one year be -1 per tire and another year be -2? Everything I fixed was not deducted this year but new or larger point deductions were made for small things. Is this typical?

The judging is supposed to be independent of other cars and against a standard but cant help but wonder if there isnt influence to create separation for best in class?

 

I received my judging sheet today like I imagine many of us did. It was the first time my car has been judged. I had a deduction of 17 points but a Total Score of 967 which appears to be fuzzy math. I had a deduction for and open face alternator (which I will sell and replace with a correct one) and a 5 point deduct for incorrect battery. Overall, I was very satisfied with the results.

 

I am by no means an expert judge…but have a few years of experience and here is what I’ll say.

Its not a perfect system.
The judges are all volunteers and they change from year to year.
Some judges are lenient, some are more critical. They have a tough time filling the judging spots so, they have to take who they can get for a particular venue. It would be great if there was an abundance of judges each year so they could pick the best ones for each class…but there’s not.

I think the discrepancy in point deduction is a point to possibly bring up and I think you should.
Its A bummer that you worked on making your car better, only to encounter tougher judging. Dont be discouraged. YOU know your car is better for it. Encourage more people with more experience to judge these cars and you’ll get there!
Ive met 90% of the judges and they all mean well.
DONT BE DISCOURAGED!

 

It depends on the judging crew. In eight Nationals, my scores have varied from 885 to 966. I didn't change a thing year to year.
Most were "condition" items: Scratches, chips, dings, etc. (which I completely agree with the judges' notes) -- but the deductions have varied. Exterior Brightwork has varied for -0 to -11, for example.
A few were for "incorrect" things which really are 'correct': Red paint on the underside, yes its an Arlington car so it has red primer. No hood insulation, 3287's didn't get it. You can see the paint through the stripes, yes coverage wasn't ever 100%. If I ever thought I was Best of Class, I would have appealed those, but I know my car is far from that caliber.
On the other hand, I've judged at least half of those Nationals. Sometimes I've been assigned to judge classes that I don't know for certain what is "correct". If I don't know, I don't deduct, so most of my deductions were condition-based only. There just aren't enough actual "experts" for every class to get deep into what is correct in every class.

 

If it was new judges I would consider the argument of different views driving the results but it was the same main judge both years. Guess it doesnt matter overall except I was hoping to enjoy seeing some improvement for my effort. If the goal post changes so dramatically each year it kind of takes the point out of getting it judged. I think the problem for me is I thought there was a standard that was well defined. Given the high variance I saw now over two years, not sure what I learned. Have to say mistakenly deducting for a bias ply spare tire is just not paying attention which is sad after all the money spent to get there and participate. I have a whole year to see if I want to continue with getting it judged or just make improvement and skip the judging process.

 

I'm restoring mine as I want to own it. In 1972, if I bought mine new, I would have changed things to what they are today. I'm frame on restoring mine and do almost all the improvements myself. My work looks decent but it, especially my bodywork/paint does not look as good as I had hoped but looks better than I feared"! And the paint didn't cost me 15 grand or more! I do nice work but not concours work. The weird thing is that some folks restore cars to better and more perfect than GM ever built them. Now, I do drool over these beautiful restorations/creations....they are awesome! To me, over restored should be deductions. There are quite a few here who do this type of work and I do commend them on it. I could never do one that perfect! To me it's the opposite of not quite perfect vs. way too perfect! I drove, bought and maintained new GM cars back in the 60's 70's and 80's so I know how perfect they were(n't)!
Enjoy your car, show your car (if that interests you), improve your car but, IMO, the only perfect points car would be one bought new, put in a time capsule storage rea and then judged. But then, due to time, even that one might not still be perfect! So, just enjoy what you have if it makes you happy! JMHO and YMMV! Enjoy!

OLE442

 

The head judge DOES NOT judge your car.
He runs the program.

 

My teal 1994 Cutlass Supreme this year was at 988 points. I agree 100% in what all was listed above, but in all fairness I would have been much tougher on my car than the others on how it was judged. I thank them for their final tally, but I do understand they might not have been knowledgeable on some of the things I feel they missed (to mark down on), and that comes with the turf. Due to my class having only 2 cars and I wound up with best of class, since my CS scored over 975 points I now go to the Senior Class. That will have to wait, as next year the 79 Hurst will be going. Via Trailer. I'm looking forward to another crack at that 1/4 mile race in an effort to make up for my dismal performance at Ozark this year.

 

I must agree with both Rallye469 and oldoldss above. I was not at this year's event but was a volunteer judge at the previous two nationals, Dayton and Murfreesboro. Fortunately both years I was assigned to a team judging vehicles that I do know very well and as such may have been more critical than the judge that was not as well acquainted with them. As Peter stated above, the head judge runs the program and tries his best to ensure that it is fair. Yes, don't be discouraged, be proud to show your vehicle on the show field and definitely contest that which you know is incorrect! It will help everyone in the future.

 

Which head judge do you mean? There is an overall head judge for the OCA, and, yes, he's the same person, but he doesn't judge each car. There is also a team leader for each of the individual judging crews. Was it this person who was the same?

Anyway, even with the same crew leader, there will be different members of the crew, and things will be looked at with different eyes. It would be nice if the judging sheets of the cars that were judged last year could be given to the crews judging this year so they can see if any changes have been made, but that's probably impractical.

Exactly. I was a judge at each of the last two OCA meets. Same class each time. But the judging crew was mostly different. It largely consists of people specifically familiar with that class of car, but not everyone makes it every meet every year. Depends on their schedule, distance, etc.

If you want perfection, you're looking in the wrong place.


As for me, I've brought cars to the OCA meets, but I always have them "not judged." There's a million things wrong with each one, and I don't need to be told this in any official capacity. I can see it for myself!

 

Jeff,
The 70-72 Performance classes are one of the biggest challenges when it comes to judging. OCA has been criticized for either being to lenient or to harsh in these classes. I've worked very hard to make sure the teams have very knowledgeable judges assigned. They look at these cars with a critical eye for authenticity and condition. Many of the judges are the same year to year as in your case. All of the deductions on your sheet have notes and while you corrected things from the year before, they noted other items this year. I have been working with a team to create a notebook for these classes. It will help educate both judges and participants, but it is a slow process.
As to your tire questions: In the stock classes, a 0 point deduction would mean the car has the correct appearing bias ply tires. Reproductions are fine. A 4 point deduction would mean the tires are a radial that matches the original look. (they make both a polyglas and wide oval versions). An 8 point deduction would mean the radials are something like a T/A radial. The spare either has to match the tires on the car or be an OEM appearing bias ply. The team should not have deducted for the spare. I stress this note at the judges meeting every year and find that it still gets missed.
I can only encourage you to keep bringing you car to the National meets. If you have further questions please feel free to reach out directly to me.

Brian McArthur
OCA Chief Judge
chiefjudge@oldsmobileclub.org

 

Glenn,
You sheet is correct. 17 points deducted on the front page, 16 points on the back page.

Brian McArthur
OCA Chief Judge.

 

Thanks for the response Brian. I did not flip the sheet over. There are some things on the car I will never change like the exhaust. This was the first time this car has been judged and overall I was satisfied. There are enough things I could correct to maybe get it to 975 points. But as long as I am next to a nut and bolt frame off restoration, it wouldn't matter. We will bring my wife's 95 Cutlass Convertible to Bowling Green next year and enter it in unrestored. It has 28,000 original miles on it.

 

I am a master judge for OCA. I always try to follow the sheet and not to get too brutal unless something was terribly wrong, like a wrong displacement engine in a non modified/race class.
I put together and others a list of guide lines in their areas of expertise to help the judges that may not know exactly what they are looking at/for. I think Brian has a great idea here to further the consistency of judging.

Pat

 

Not upset on my score to be clear. I was using the judging to gauge where I am at and where I improved. I understand the process wont be perfect. Last year was my first so had no reference. This year I was hoping to see improvement for my efforts and when the score went down it was a head scratcher. Ill keep working on it because I enjoy the process of making it better.

 

the reality is , one cannot judge a class in which the person has a car entered or assited in the restoration of a car in the class.

BUT what class don't we know better?
I had a friend with a 1970 442 and he would tell me things are wrong on my 1969 442, like heater hose clamps based on his 1970, I pointed out in the factory assembly manual that they are different. Just one year difference.

We try, but almost impossible to find people who know the ALL details of each year car within a class.