My 72 Cutlass won't start
June 3rd, 2015, 08:39 AM
#2
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Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Jacksonville, FL
Posts: 2,060
Gotcha.
Have you tried the key?
That's pretty much all I've got with the information you've provided.
You may want to give the good folks here a little more info.
Someone will definitely be able to help.
-Pete
Have you tried the key?
That's pretty much all I've got with the information you've provided.
You may want to give the good folks here a little more info.
Someone will definitely be able to help.
-Pete
June 3rd, 2015, 09:23 AM
#6
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Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: ND
Posts: 19
Step 1, ensure you have a 72 Cutlass.
Step 2, ensure it has a (charged) battery correctly installed
Step 3, ensure there is gas in the tank
Step 4, ensure you have the (correct) key
Step 5, tell us something (anything!!) about what it is doing besides not starting so we may be able to help from hundreds (thousands) of miles away.
Or, call a tow truck.
Step 2, ensure it has a (charged) battery correctly installed
Step 3, ensure there is gas in the tank
Step 4, ensure you have the (correct) key
Step 5, tell us something (anything!!) about what it is doing besides not starting so we may be able to help from hundreds (thousands) of miles away.
Or, call a tow truck.
June 3rd, 2015, 09:29 AM
#7
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Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Maryland
Posts: 1,325
Step 1, ensure you have a 72 Cutlass.
Step 2, ensure it has a (charged) battery correctly installed
Step 3, ensure there is gas in the tank
Step 4, ensure you have the (correct) key
Step 5, tell us something (anything!!) about what it is doing besides not starting so we may be able to help from hundreds (thousands) of miles away.
Or, call a tow truck.
Step 2, ensure it has a (charged) battery correctly installed
Step 3, ensure there is gas in the tank
Step 4, ensure you have the (correct) key
Step 5, tell us something (anything!!) about what it is doing besides not starting so we may be able to help from hundreds (thousands) of miles away.
Or, call a tow truck.
Sounds like the perfect advice to me. I think that you hit the nail on the head.
June 3rd, 2015, 11:05 AM
#9
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Location: southeastern Michigan
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June 4th, 2015, 08:18 AM
#10
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Chelmsford, MA
Posts: 15
72 cutlass won't start
yes I have a 72 Olds Cutlass convertible. No I don't know much about fixing cars. Lol. All I know is that it will not start but seems to have a lot of power in the battery.it tries to start, turns over and over and over.
June 4th, 2015, 08:39 AM
#13
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Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: southeastern Michigan
Posts: 14,435
Maybe not, but you should certainly learn how to describe what's wrong. Simply saying "it won't start" and nothing more is about as useless a description of the problem as there could be as the various responses above have demostrated.
So reading between the lines of your posts, where you've given us a wonderful tour of the calendar, we can get a couple of clues.
1. While it may not always start, it does always crank, which means, as you put it, it turns over and over, but it won't catch. So that tells us your starter is working, and, as you put it, you have "plenty of power in the battery." So we can rule out these two components and the wiring between them.
2. Also, you said this:
This suggests that, occasionally (especially in September), it does start, correct? Otherwise you wouldn't be out somewhere to become stranded as no one considers themselves stranded if they're at home when their car won't start.
When it does start, how does it run? Smooth at all speeds with no hesitation, bucking, loss of power, or anything like this?
Engines need three things to start: compression, spark, and fuel. We'll assume you have the first one in at least some of your car's 8 cylinders. That leaves fuel and spark. Since the car does eventually start on occasion, it would seem you have spark. That leaves fuel. Your problem could be due to a weak fuel pump, a clogged fuel filter or partially blocked fuel line, a problem in the carburetor, or something along this line.
I would remove the air cleaner, open the butterfly valve, and look down inside the carburetor while a friend is pumping the gas pedal and see if any fuel is being squirted into the manifold. Others will have a better description of exactly what to look for, but my initial suspicion is that your problem is in the fuel system.
So reading between the lines of your posts, where you've given us a wonderful tour of the calendar, we can get a couple of clues.
1. While it may not always start, it does always crank, which means, as you put it, it turns over and over, but it won't catch. So that tells us your starter is working, and, as you put it, you have "plenty of power in the battery." So we can rule out these two components and the wiring between them.
2. Also, you said this:
and a couple of times around September I was stranded because it also wouldn't start
When it does start, how does it run? Smooth at all speeds with no hesitation, bucking, loss of power, or anything like this?
Engines need three things to start: compression, spark, and fuel. We'll assume you have the first one in at least some of your car's 8 cylinders. That leaves fuel and spark. Since the car does eventually start on occasion, it would seem you have spark. That leaves fuel. Your problem could be due to a weak fuel pump, a clogged fuel filter or partially blocked fuel line, a problem in the carburetor, or something along this line.
I would remove the air cleaner, open the butterfly valve, and look down inside the carburetor while a friend is pumping the gas pedal and see if any fuel is being squirted into the manifold. Others will have a better description of exactly what to look for, but my initial suspicion is that your problem is in the fuel system.
June 4th, 2015, 08:49 AM
#14
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Spark is another requirement, disconnect one of your spark plug wires, place a screwdriver in the boot and hold it by the handle with the shank about 1/4" from the exhaust manifold to see if you have spark while someone is cranking the engine. Do you know what kind of distributor is installed, points/electronic?
June 4th, 2015, 09:42 AM
#15
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Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 7,286
a better way to start this inquiry would be
"it cranks easily but will not start, sometimes."
Cranking and running are entirely separate things.
Can you catch it misbehaving? [failing to start]
if so, no problem, check for spark. At the end of the plug wire. I like to use an old spark plug but a screwdriver works also.
If it has spark then dribble a little [1-2 oz] fuel right down the carb's throat - or apply starting fluid... if it fires right up, you have a fuel delivery problem. It will run for oh 2-3 seconds on fuel dumped right in. If you wish to fill the carb bowl by way of the vent, you can get a few minutes of running usually.
Length of time since ran is immaterial.
This 403 sat for about 6 months
I filled the float bowl via the vent tube there and this was the result
http://vid19.photobucket.com/albums/...psnqnqmat1.mp4
"it cranks easily but will not start, sometimes."
Cranking and running are entirely separate things.
Can you catch it misbehaving? [failing to start]
if so, no problem, check for spark. At the end of the plug wire. I like to use an old spark plug but a screwdriver works also.
If it has spark then dribble a little [1-2 oz] fuel right down the carb's throat - or apply starting fluid... if it fires right up, you have a fuel delivery problem. It will run for oh 2-3 seconds on fuel dumped right in. If you wish to fill the carb bowl by way of the vent, you can get a few minutes of running usually.
Length of time since ran is immaterial.
This 403 sat for about 6 months
I filled the float bowl via the vent tube there and this was the result
http://vid19.photobucket.com/albums/...psnqnqmat1.mp4
June 4th, 2015, 09:58 AM
#16
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Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Chelmsford, Mass
Posts: 604
Hi Suburban:
If I can squeeze out sometime this weekend, I will try to swing by.
Sunday morning I will be at the Kimbals, Lunenburg All Oldsmobile car show.
I may have sometime early evening.
Goals:
Charge battery, check for spark, check for fuel, check vacuum, check distributor/rotor, etc.
Let’s hope it’s something simple.
Questions for the Forum. I have not touched a 2-BBL since Billy Beer was popular. Any tips or links for a 2BBL Cutlass carburetor will be helpful.
The car is a 1972 Cutlass Supreme convertible. I did not look under the hood, but will assume it’s a 350 2-BBL.
Surprisingly the engine did spin with the starter after sitting for 9 months without a battery charge.
There was no sign of any attempt to ignite. I did not have time or tools last week for any further investigation at that time.
If I can squeeze out sometime this weekend, I will try to swing by.
Sunday morning I will be at the Kimbals, Lunenburg All Oldsmobile car show.
I may have sometime early evening.
Goals:
Charge battery, check for spark, check for fuel, check vacuum, check distributor/rotor, etc.
Let’s hope it’s something simple.
Questions for the Forum. I have not touched a 2-BBL since Billy Beer was popular. Any tips or links for a 2BBL Cutlass carburetor will be helpful.
The car is a 1972 Cutlass Supreme convertible. I did not look under the hood, but will assume it’s a 350 2-BBL.
Surprisingly the engine did spin with the starter after sitting for 9 months without a battery charge.
There was no sign of any attempt to ignite. I did not have time or tools last week for any further investigation at that time.
Last edited by Miles71; June 4th, 2015 at 10:00 AM.
June 5th, 2015, 08:02 AM
#18
Mr. Johnson
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Cleveland Ohio
Posts: 574
The car is a 1972 Cutlass Supreme convertible. I did not look under the hood, but will assume it’s a 350 2-BBL.
Surprisingly the engine did spin with the starter after sitting for 9 months without a battery charge.
There was no sign of any attempt to ignite. I did not have time or tools last week for any further investigation at that time.
June 7th, 2015, 05:54 PM
#19
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Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Chelmsford, Mass
Posts: 604
Hi All,
I visited Suburban’s car for a few hours this weekend and was not able to get it to start.
I think the problem is the fuel pump.
I never got any real noticeable odder of fuel at the 2BBL carburetor.
The starting fluid also did not help at all, which is strange because I had good spark.
I cleaned up the old distributor and points the best I could. I was able to see a nice spark at least 1 / 2 inch long at the #1 plug cable.
The Distributor and Points will need to be replaced soon, but they should be good enough to get the car to start.
My new tool kid box did not have a spark plug socket for an old car, so I did not check the condition of the Delco plugs on this visit.
I attached a 10 amp charger to the battery and was able to get some good RPM out of the starter.
I never detected any attempt by the engine to fire-up. Even with large amounts of starting fluid.
The fuel line to the Carburetor had stripped from not using a flair wrench at coupler to fuel filter fittings on the line ends.
I did not attempt to remove the old stripped line until I get a replacement.
Due to incompatible work schedules I may not have time to look at the car again until next weekend.
The overall condition of the car is fair. The frame looks good. The car does need some TLC.
I visited Suburban’s car for a few hours this weekend and was not able to get it to start.
I think the problem is the fuel pump.
I never got any real noticeable odder of fuel at the 2BBL carburetor.
The starting fluid also did not help at all, which is strange because I had good spark.
I cleaned up the old distributor and points the best I could. I was able to see a nice spark at least 1 / 2 inch long at the #1 plug cable.
The Distributor and Points will need to be replaced soon, but they should be good enough to get the car to start.
My new tool kid box did not have a spark plug socket for an old car, so I did not check the condition of the Delco plugs on this visit.
I attached a 10 amp charger to the battery and was able to get some good RPM out of the starter.
I never detected any attempt by the engine to fire-up. Even with large amounts of starting fluid.
The fuel line to the Carburetor had stripped from not using a flair wrench at coupler to fuel filter fittings on the line ends.
I did not attempt to remove the old stripped line until I get a replacement.
Due to incompatible work schedules I may not have time to look at the car again until next weekend.
The overall condition of the car is fair. The frame looks good. The car does need some TLC.
June 7th, 2015, 06:11 PM
#20
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Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Posts: 14,723
Well, it's not a bad fuel pump if "large amounts of starting fluid" down the throat of the carb had no impact.
So there was spark and there was fuel, but the engine did not start.
If the above is accurate, the reasons for the no-start condition are limited.
Spark has to occur at the correct time (relative to piston position and valve timing) for the engine to start and run. Timing could be way out, as in timing chain may have jumped or distributor may be loose.
So there was spark and there was fuel, but the engine did not start.
If the above is accurate, the reasons for the no-start condition are limited.
Spark has to occur at the correct time (relative to piston position and valve timing) for the engine to start and run. Timing could be way out, as in timing chain may have jumped or distributor may be loose.
Last edited by Fun71; June 7th, 2015 at 06:14 PM.
June 8th, 2015, 03:48 AM
#21
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Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Chelmsford, Mass
Posts: 604
Hi Fun:
The car as approximately 89,000. The last time I saw this car running was at a car show (Liberty Tree Danvers) in September 2013.
The owner said the car began running poorly in the fall of 2014 and then finally did not start at all.
All fluids look ok.
When I started the car the engine seemed to spin easily.
How fast would an engine spin if the timing chain had snapped?
While working on the distributor, I did not notice any looseness in the distributor, it did not twist left or right. The access door was located in the normal location (visibly). The internal ground wire for the distributor was broken, so I replaced the ground wire.
The rotor cap is polarized (square Peg and round peg).
After cleaning the rotor cap and distributor and cap, I made sure I aligned the square peg and round peg with the mounting of the cap.
I did a quick check of the Cylinder #1 cable with the approximate location on the cap (from memory), all looked ok.
Goals for next week:
Replace the carburetor fuel line and filter, check for fuel from the tank.
Double check the distributor cap cables and locations.
Check most spark plugs.
Maybe remove the DS Valve cover and check for valve movement.
The car as approximately 89,000. The last time I saw this car running was at a car show (Liberty Tree Danvers) in September 2013.
The owner said the car began running poorly in the fall of 2014 and then finally did not start at all.
All fluids look ok.
When I started the car the engine seemed to spin easily.
How fast would an engine spin if the timing chain had snapped?
While working on the distributor, I did not notice any looseness in the distributor, it did not twist left or right. The access door was located in the normal location (visibly). The internal ground wire for the distributor was broken, so I replaced the ground wire.
The rotor cap is polarized (square Peg and round peg).
After cleaning the rotor cap and distributor and cap, I made sure I aligned the square peg and round peg with the mounting of the cap.
I did a quick check of the Cylinder #1 cable with the approximate location on the cap (from memory), all looked ok.
Goals for next week:
Replace the carburetor fuel line and filter, check for fuel from the tank.
Double check the distributor cap cables and locations.
Check most spark plugs.
Maybe remove the DS Valve cover and check for valve movement.
June 8th, 2015, 04:27 AM
#23
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Location: BC
Posts: 65
June 8th, 2015, 07:29 AM
#25
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Location: Chelmsford, Mass
Posts: 604
The car is located in Chelmsford Mass.
Fortunately I also live in Chelmsford and I am trying to assist Suburban in my limited spare time.
When I said the engine is spinning fast, it’s not real fast, it’s just faster than I would have expected for a battery that had been sitting in the cold for 9 months.
That’s why I attached a 10 amp charger knowing that the battery would die in the middle of my testing.
What is the compression ratio for a stock 1972 Supreme 350 (dual exhaust) with a stock 2BBL?
The Plug cables, Distributor Cap and Rotor are relatively new; there was very little corrosion inside, which we cleaned off.
It was getting dark last night and the spark from the coil lead looked great.
Then I connected the coil to the distributor and checked the #1 cable with a screwdriver stuffed in the end.
Again I saw a good spark, in sync with what I would have expected from the #1 cylinder.
I know the Distributor points are in rough shape.
Since I was getting a great spark, it should be enough to ignite the fuel or starting fluid.
Additional tools to bring on next visit, Compression tester, Timing light and Tack/Dwell meter.
The owner of the car is under a tight budget and she has had this car for 17 years.
Too be continued.
Fortunately I also live in Chelmsford and I am trying to assist Suburban in my limited spare time.
When I said the engine is spinning fast, it’s not real fast, it’s just faster than I would have expected for a battery that had been sitting in the cold for 9 months.
That’s why I attached a 10 amp charger knowing that the battery would die in the middle of my testing.
What is the compression ratio for a stock 1972 Supreme 350 (dual exhaust) with a stock 2BBL?
The Plug cables, Distributor Cap and Rotor are relatively new; there was very little corrosion inside, which we cleaned off.
It was getting dark last night and the spark from the coil lead looked great.
Then I connected the coil to the distributor and checked the #1 cable with a screwdriver stuffed in the end.
Again I saw a good spark, in sync with what I would have expected from the #1 cylinder.
I know the Distributor points are in rough shape.
Since I was getting a great spark, it should be enough to ignite the fuel or starting fluid.
Additional tools to bring on next visit, Compression tester, Timing light and Tack/Dwell meter.
The owner of the car is under a tight budget and she has had this car for 17 years.
Too be continued.
June 8th, 2015, 07:46 AM
#26
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Location: Poteau, Ok
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If you messed with the points the dwell and timing may be off. I would make sure the gap is.016 to start with. Check that the rotor is pointing close to the number wire location when the engine is on #1 TDC. Look down in throat of the carb with the engine off, operate the throttle linkage to wot and see if there are 2 solid streams of fuel spraying in there. Before attempting to start the next time, manually prop the choke wide open and leave it there.
June 8th, 2015, 08:22 AM
#27
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Location: Chelmsford, Mass
Posts: 604
Hi oldCutlass:
Does the 2BBL have an accelerator pump equivalent just like the QJet 4bbl 650?
I am familiar with my QJet 4BBL on my Car, however I have no experience with a 2BBL.
When I operated the throttle linkage on my 4BBL, the accelerator pump shoots two streams into the Primaries.
You can clearly hear the Hear, see and smell the streams on a 4BBL.
When I tried the same test on Suburban’s 2BBL I never heard the streams or smelled the gas fumes.
I am pretty sure that one of my issues is a total lack of fuel.
I will look into adding an extra 5 gallons of fresh gas to the existing tank too.
Next week, I will pull the #1 Plug and align the Rotor with the #1 wire and check the position of TDC and the Piston and try to verify the timing is in the ballpark.
Does the 2BBL have an accelerator pump equivalent just like the QJet 4bbl 650?
I am familiar with my QJet 4BBL on my Car, however I have no experience with a 2BBL.
When I operated the throttle linkage on my 4BBL, the accelerator pump shoots two streams into the Primaries.
You can clearly hear the Hear, see and smell the streams on a 4BBL.
When I tried the same test on Suburban’s 2BBL I never heard the streams or smelled the gas fumes.
I am pretty sure that one of my issues is a total lack of fuel.
I will look into adding an extra 5 gallons of fresh gas to the existing tank too.
Next week, I will pull the #1 Plug and align the Rotor with the #1 wire and check the position of TDC and the Piston and try to verify the timing is in the ballpark.
Last edited by Miles71; June 8th, 2015 at 08:25 AM.
June 8th, 2015, 08:37 AM
#29
Connoisseur d'Junque
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: The Hudson Valley
Posts: 21,183
You need to get the spark plugs out and cleaned - they may be all carboned up from various starting attempts and simply not firing.
Then re-confirm spark, attach a timing light to confirm roughly correct timing (if timing looks way off, then consider possibility that timing chain may have jumped a tooth), pour some gas down the carb, replace air cleaner and screw down, and crank.
If there is a fuel issue don't forget the possibility or porous fuel lines or hoses.
- Eric
Then re-confirm spark, attach a timing light to confirm roughly correct timing (if timing looks way off, then consider possibility that timing chain may have jumped a tooth), pour some gas down the carb, replace air cleaner and screw down, and crank.
If there is a fuel issue don't forget the possibility or porous fuel lines or hoses.
- Eric
June 8th, 2015, 09:00 AM
#30
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Location: Poteau, Ok
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Yes a 2v carb has an accelerator pump. My concern is that you sprayed starting fluid down the carb while cranking and it did absolutely nothing. Since starting fluid is extremely volatile and lights off easily, I don't see pouring gas down the carb will give you a different result. IMHO your not getting spark at the right time at this point, which is why I suggested you start from scratch to isolate the problem systematically.
Another thought for later is if it has been sitting as long as you say the fuel probably smells like varnish and has gone bad. However the starting fluid should still have netted the engine to start.
Another thought for later is if it has been sitting as long as you say the fuel probably smells like varnish and has gone bad. However the starting fluid should still have netted the engine to start.
June 8th, 2015, 01:23 PM
#32
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Location: Phoenix, AZ
Posts: 14,723
Good call about the fouled plugs. Having a spark at the wire with a screwdriver inserted into the end is not the same as having a spark jump across the plug gap.
Miles71,
I would think the cranking cylinder pressure for that engine would be around 120psi or so. Ring and valve condition play a big part in this.
Miles71,
I would think the cranking cylinder pressure for that engine would be around 120psi or so. Ring and valve condition play a big part in this.
June 16th, 2015, 02:55 PM
#34
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Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Chelmsford, MA
Posts: 15
Update from the girl who knows nothing of engines, mind you......so bear w. Me. : )
I had someone look at it the cutlass other day, who has an Oldsmobile also. The spark plugs are fine. He poured gas down the carburetor and it still wouldn't start. So that means it can't be the fuel line or filter because we bypassed that part, correct? so in his opinion the only 3 things left it cld be is: The timing chain broke? Timing could be off? Or the Cam? Let me knw if any quests, and ty for your help!
p.m.finehttp://sr.photos3.fotosearch.com/bthumb/CSP/CSP511/k5115635.jpgsomebody looking at it the other day. Spark plugs are fine.
p.m.finehttp://sr.photos3.fotosearch.com/bthumb/CSP/CSP511/k5115635.jpgsomebody looking at it the other day. Spark plugs are fine.
June 16th, 2015, 03:16 PM
#36
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Location: Chelmsford, MA
Posts: 15
[QUOTE=MDchanic;831039]So do you have a good blue spark at the plugs and if you put a timing light on it while cranking, does the timing line up at about 5-10 BTDC?
he seems to know engines well. He's tested 3 spark plugs are completely fine and they had good spark. I'm sure there is nothing wrong with them at all. We did not have a timing light so that wasn't checked.
he seems to know engines well. He's tested 3 spark plugs are completely fine and they had good spark. I'm sure there is nothing wrong with them at all. We did not have a timing light so that wasn't checked.
June 16th, 2015, 03:43 PM
#37
Connoisseur d'Junque
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: The Hudson Valley
Posts: 21,183
You've got to be sure the timing is right.
If nothing else, turn crank to 5 before TDC compression stroke on #1, rotate distributor body counterclockwise, put a test light from the coil (+) to ground, if light goes on, turn distributor clockwise until it goes off, then check that rotor position corresponds to location of #1 spark plug, and continue slowly turning distributor clockwise until light just goes on (corresponding to points opening), tighten it down, and see if it runs.
- Eric
If nothing else, turn crank to 5 before TDC compression stroke on #1, rotate distributor body counterclockwise, put a test light from the coil (+) to ground, if light goes on, turn distributor clockwise until it goes off, then check that rotor position corresponds to location of #1 spark plug, and continue slowly turning distributor clockwise until light just goes on (corresponding to points opening), tighten it down, and see if it runs.
- Eric
June 17th, 2015, 10:21 AM
#38
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Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Sistersville, WV
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All good info, but in my experience if timing is off and you add fuel in carb you will get some indication it is firing by a backfire or trying to start. I have seen bad plugs spark outside the engine but they will not fire under compression, if they have been extremely fouled. Are they wet if removed immediately after trying to start the primed engine?
If timing chain is actually broke, (unlikely), distributor will not rotate when engine is cranked.
If timing chain is actually broke, (unlikely), distributor will not rotate when engine is cranked.
June 17th, 2015, 01:36 PM
#39
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Diana w/ 72' Olds, MA.
He said the spark plugs are good. I don't know if the following helps...but last early Fall, my car died at a stop sign and then again at a drivethru. Both times car was pushed to the side. I don't remember how it was fixed, but I think by starter fluid(and/or gas?) that first time. And it took within 20 min for it to restart. The 2nd time it happened, it took over 2 hours for it to restart....and just starting fluid was used....
June 22nd, 2015, 07:18 PM
#40
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Location: Chelmsford, MA
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Hello. Update here.... Miles 71 came over to my Cutlass tonite. The timing is way off. It's at about 60 somethings..... He used chalk at the mark....so we cld see it when timing lite on when we cranked it over. I am towing it to shop tomm, and have about ten things I wrote down for shop, that needs to be replaced. Thx for your support.
