When you click on links to various merchants on this site and make a purchase, this can result in this site earning a commission. Affiliate programs and affiliations include, but are not limited to, the eBay Partner Network.
i just purchased a 1965 442 that is supposed to be a numbers matching all original car, how do i verify those numbers? the engine is definitely a 65 400 block, numbers 398289B with a head casting A. it had the 4 speed but i didn't pull the numbers from that yet but will have them tomorrow. the car was in the same family for over 40 years and has been in a garage for the last 30, it's safe to believe that it was all original. the car is definitely a 4v Lansing car so for what i paid for it, i won't be too mad if the numbers don't match, that will open up options for restoration. thanks for any and all assistance as i embark on my journey.
Did it come with any paper work?
65’s didn’t have a VIN derivative stamped on the engine like later cars.
But there’s a code on one of the the front pad of one of the cylinder heads that would have been also been found on original paperwork I believe.
But these cars never technically are matching numbers because nothing links the engine to the body.
someone please clear this up if I’m wrong.
The only way to know that year is if you have the Protect-O-Plates. These are metal warranty information tags that the original owner would have gotten. These metal plates will have the engine, transmission number and body tag number on them. If you don't have these plates you can't know if the head or transmission is original. If they are missing you could still check the date codes of the parts and see if they pre-date the build date of the car by a few days to as much as 2 months. That will help but without the plates there is not way to do it for sure.
I took this image off of google...
Last edited by jensenracing77; March 11th, 2022 at 05:09 AM.
Just to be clear, there are no numbers that "match" on a 1965 Olds. Oldsmobile didn't start stamping a VIN derivative on the block and trans until the 1968 model year. As Eric noted, the only way to verify the originality of the engine and trans is to have the Protect-O-Plate, which will show the engine and trans number along with the car's VIN. Of course, that only means that one head is original, since the engine unit number was stamped on the passenger side head. The fallacy of the "numbers matching" claim is shown by my 67 Delta, which is "numbers matching" despite the fact that the short block is a later 455. Only the one head with the engine unit number is original to the car. Don't lose a lot of sleep over this.
well, hopefully i can get the rust removed from the protecto plate, if i'm not mistaken, the info is stamped into the metal, if so, i should be able to recover the info. i'm going to see if i can find a laser rust removal machine in the cincinnati area. i'm thinking that will be the least abbrasive way to remove the rust, and not damage the book anymore than it already is
Most cars do not have that. If you get that repaired, you are definitely ahead of most on the "numbers matching" thing.
fingers crossed, my neighbors kid works in cleaning jewelry and they have a laser cleaner. he is going to talk to some people in management to see if he can use it on this piece of metal.
Sadly, the bottom plate is missing. Usually the bottom plate is what has the engine and trans number.
you're killing me smalls...lol i will keep searching the boxes, there is a good chance it is here. there is paper in the baggies with the nuts and bolts that tell you what goes where. who ever took it apart knew what they were doing. how they let it sit after that is another story...but, that's i how i ended up with it so i will just be excited about having it as my own.
duane
Last edited by 65droptop; March 11th, 2022 at 10:22 AM.
The P-O-P is definitely the only way on a 65. I've had really good results with Rust 911. You'd have to separate the metal from the booklet.
thanks, i'd like to try to keep it attached if all possible, but if not, i will try that, my neighbor seems to think that the laser he uses for jewelry will work, but he has to get permission to do so. i'll know more soon
Try vinegar on the POP plate. I have a thread showing how well it works if you wanna search for it.
And it’s slow…so you can check process every 12 hours and not damage it.
score one for the good guys!!! it is definitely a matching numbers engine. you can see the number embossed into the previous page in the booklet and the number matches the engine, but, i did notice the engine, although rebuilt years ago, is seized. hopefully it is a simple as a re-ring and gasket set and some honing, maybe a minor bore. where do i find the identifying numbers on the transmission? what are the other numbers ? i see the vin number
On your P-o-P, if you can't use your neighbor's laser process be careful of anything acidic.), If you decide to remove the metal plate from the booklet EvapoRust works awesome and will not damage the metal (uses chelation, not acid reaction).
It's the original engine (or, at least, the head). It still is not numbers matching. Numbers matching means vin derivative which was a federal regulation in 1968. Matching means multiple pieces of metal have the same number on them, thus, they match.
Sorry to be pedantic. You now have "the documented, original engine." At least, that's how I'd put it.
That is the Muncie model number, indicating the month and year it was built. Not sure for the early trans, but I think there should be another stamped number with the VIN derivative that will partially match the VIN if it is the car's original transmission. Your stamping doesn't quite match what it "should" look like, but it looks unmolested and I'm thinking your stamping decodes as July 29. The year was not included in the stamping for '63 - '66 units. The pic below is from the book Muncie 4-Speed Transmissions How to Rebuild and Modify, by Paul Cangialosi of 5-speeds.com.
Last edited by BackInTheGame; March 12th, 2022 at 09:08 AM.
That is the Muncie model number, indicating the month and year it was built. Not sure for the early trans, but I think there should be another stamped number with the VIN derivative that will partially match the VIN if it is the car's original transmission.
There is no VIN deriviative stamp on a 1965 Olds trans, only the transmission unit number. This is not a VIN derivative but will be linked to the VIN of the car on the P-O-P.
That is the Muncie model number, indicating the month and year it was built. Not sure for the early trans, but I think there should be another stamped number with the VIN derivative that will partially match the VIN if it is the car's original transmission. Your stamping doesn't quite match what it "should" look like, but it looks unmolested and I'm thinking your stamping decodes as July 29. The year was not included in the stamping for '63 - '66 units. The pic below is from the book Muncie 4-Speed Transmissions How to Rebuild and Modify, by Paul Cangialosi of 5-speeds.com.
so, that falls in line with the build date on the cowl tag, 8th month 1st week. almost like the tranny was assembled and put right in the car. i will keep looking for other numbers.
It's the original engine (or, at least, the head). It still is not numbers matching. Numbers matching means vin derivative which was a federal regulation in 1968. Matching means multiple pieces of metal have the same number on them, thus, they match.
Sorry to be pedantic. You now have "the documented, original engine." At least, that's how I'd put it.
Numbers matching isnt an official federal term. So it can mean whatever you want it to. You guys argue this ad nauseum. The head number matches the book, so those numbers are the same. They "match". The vin is the same as in that book, so it also matches. So you can say that the car has the original head. And 99.9% the original engine. The B block is one year only and has a date code on it. So the correct term would be "numbers and date correct correct".
And Fremont built 4 speeds have a VIN on them. So that number will "match" on a Fremont car too.
so, that falls in line with the build date on the cowl tag, 8th month 1st week. almost like the tranny was assembled and put right in the car. i will keep looking for other numbers.
thanks
duane
Of course it was, with a build date of 8A the 66 model year was just a few weeks away. And the 66 had different casting number.
Numbers matching isnt an official federal term. So it can mean whatever you want it to. You guys argue this ad nauseum. The head number matches the book, so those numbers are the same. They "match". The vin is the same as in that book, so it also matches. So you can say that the car has the original head. And 99.9% the original engine. The B block is one year only and has a date code on it. So the correct term would be "numbers and date correct correct".
And Fremont built 4 speeds have a VIN on them. So that number will "match" on a Fremont car too.
thanks, i tend to agree with you. the only numbers available to match up a car in 1965 are there, and they match. not like i plan on selling the car now that i have it anyway, so it really don't matter in the long run. sure is nice to say numbers matching though. i have the original title from 81 when the family i bought it, as well as the original registration given to the car. i'm going to try and see if the state of ky will let me keep the title for nostalgia purposes, i doubt it, but it's worth the ask.
where would i find the numbers i'm looking for on the transmission? the number under the engine ID number on the protecto plate is S-4, so that should be some where on the case. i see the different gm part numbers for tail shaft, shift cover, casing, but no other identifying numbers that i have found, i haven't exactly cleaned the entire casing yet, but that's next.
thanks
duane
Last edited by 65droptop; March 12th, 2022 at 12:51 PM.
Numbers matching isnt an official federal term. So it can mean whatever you want it to. You guys argue this ad nauseum. The head number matches the book, so those numbers are the same. They "match". The vin is the same as in that book, so it also matches. So you can say that the car has the original head. And 99.9% the original engine. The B block is one year only and has a date code on it. So the correct term would be "numbers and date correct correct".
And Fremont built 4 speeds have a VIN on them. So that number will "match" on a Fremont car too.
Putting vin derivatives on certain components was a federal regulation in 68. That's all I said.
S-4 is synchromesh 4 speed. The trans has a date code and a casting number that will fall in line with the build date of the car. It may or may not have a vin on it. I’m guessing no since it’s a Lansing car.
thanks, i tend to agree with you. the only numbers available to match up a car in 1965 are there, and they match. not like i plan on selling the car now that i have it anyway, so it really don't matter in the long run. sure is nice to say numbers matching though. i have the original title from 81 when the family i bought it, as well as the original registration given to the car. i'm going to try and see if the state of ky will let me keep the title for nostalgia purposes, i doubt it, but it's worth the ask.
where would i find the numbers i'm looking for on the transmission? the number under the engine ID number on the protecto plate is S-4, so that should be some where on the case. i see the different gm part numbers for tail shaft, shift cover, casing, but no other identifying numbers that i have found, i haven't exactly cleaned the entire casing yet, but that's next.
thanks duane
Scan the title on both sides and save it on your computer before you ask KYDMV to keep the original. You can bet a screw up can lose it easily.
It's the original engine (or, at least, the head). It still is not numbers matching. Numbers matching means vin derivative which was a federal regulation in 1968. Matching means multiple pieces of metal have the same number on them, thus, they match.
Sorry to be pedantic. You now have "the documented, original engine." At least, that's how I'd put it.
Originally Posted by Koda
Putting vin derivatives on certain components was a federal regulation in 68. That's all I said.
My apologies on having to use a picture to quote. The forum software works better on quoting when you actually say something instead of solely carping about what someone else said with creative use of highlighter.
I supposed I should have directly quoted TK-65 to avoid people deliberately misunderstanding me. I was responding to his statement that "numbers matching is not a federal term," to which I said that all I said [that was Federal regulation] is putting vin derivatives on certain components in 68. Obviously, I did say more than that because I discussed what is commonly referred to as numbers matching, which is when pieces of the car have the same number on them.
March 10th, 2022, 11:18 PM
