H.O. vs. H/O
March 1st, 2010, 08:15 PM
#41
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2. and vice versa ( how did a c**** sneak into this discussion ?)...
A '67 formula 400 fire-boid would spank either, but the a-body ponchos' are a taste slower ...
As for bench racing, it's a low cost alternative to the real thing ...
...
March 1st, 2010, 08:41 PM
#43
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There never was a '67 Formula 400. The first year of the Formula was 1970 1/2.
Additionally, the 1967 Firebird was not considered a very strong car at 325 hp. There only was a base 400 aside of the 54 Ram Air cars built. In 1968, they introduced the mid-level HO that pretty much was the precursor of the Ram Air III. I still would put my money on the Olds.
If we're going to discuss the competitiveness of two cars, wouldn't it make sense to have an understanding of both cars? Some dude can't possibly believe the 455 HO would edge out the W-30, but I'm almost certain he really doesn't have an idea how good the Poncho is.
And why can't we just spell "Chevy" and that's it?
Additionally, the 1967 Firebird was not considered a very strong car at 325 hp. There only was a base 400 aside of the 54 Ram Air cars built. In 1968, they introduced the mid-level HO that pretty much was the precursor of the Ram Air III. I still would put my money on the Olds.
If we're going to discuss the competitiveness of two cars, wouldn't it make sense to have an understanding of both cars? Some dude can't possibly believe the 455 HO would edge out the W-30, but I'm almost certain he really doesn't have an idea how good the Poncho is.
And why can't we just spell "Chevy" and that's it?
March 1st, 2010, 09:24 PM
#44
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There never was a '67 Formula 400. The first year of the Formula was 1970 1/2.
Additionally, the 1967 Firebird was not considered a very strong car at 325 hp. There only was a base 400 aside of the 54 Ram Air cars built. In 1968, they introduced the mid-level HO that pretty much was the precursor of the Ram Air III. I still would put my money on the Olds.
If we're going to discuss the competitiveness of two cars, wouldn't it make sense to have an understanding of both cars? Some dude can't possibly believe the 455 HO would edge out the W-30, but I'm almost certain he really doesn't have an idea how good the Poncho is.
And why can't we just spell "Chevy" and that's it?
Additionally, the 1967 Firebird was not considered a very strong car at 325 hp. There only was a base 400 aside of the 54 Ram Air cars built. In 1968, they introduced the mid-level HO that pretty much was the precursor of the Ram Air III. I still would put my money on the Olds.
If we're going to discuss the competitiveness of two cars, wouldn't it make sense to have an understanding of both cars? Some dude can't possibly believe the 455 HO would edge out the W-30, but I'm almost certain he really doesn't have an idea how good the Poncho is.
And why can't we just spell "Chevy" and that's it?
325 under rated hp ...
Which gear rear ends are we talking about ...
They are the enemy ...
Last edited by mugzilla; March 1st, 2010 at 10:00 PM.
March 1st, 2010, 10:21 PM
#46
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You can, who's stopping you?
Because every Chebbie guy on earth will be finding the post in a search and start jumping in eventually, this site is on all the search engines because of it's commercial nature.
Plus it's more fun to say chebby, furd and buhog, it's a tradition too .
Because every Chebbie guy on earth will be finding the post in a search and start jumping in eventually, this site is on all the search engines because of it's commercial nature.
Plus it's more fun to say chebby, furd and buhog, it's a tradition too .
March 2nd, 2010, 10:24 AM
#48
1970 442
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Houston, Texas
Posts: 238
Hmmmm...just got an e-mail back from my friend. I'm getting a history lesson here!
The Firebird 400 was produced from 1967-1969. In 1970, a new model called the Formula 400 debuted, and the Firebird 400 was discontinued.
The engines in the Firebird 400 were the same engines as in the GTO. The only difference was that the Firebirds had better exhaust manifolds. The 67-69 Firebirds were also about 150-250 lbs. lighter than the 67-69 GTO's, they sat lower, and they had less aerodynamic drag than the GTO.
There was pressure from GM about horsepower ratings remaining at 10 lbs of vehicle weight per horsepower (which also helped keep insurance premiums lower), so the GTO was rated at 350 hp, 360 hp, later 366 hp and 370 hp. But GM management was not fooled when Pontiac deliberately underrated the 1967 Firebird 400 at 325 hp (3200-3300 lb car). Pontiac management was also very concerned that the lighter Firebird 400 would steal performance sales away from the GTO.
Pontiac engineers came up with a solution that was acceptable to GM and to Pontiac. They limited throttle travel on the Firebird 400 cars. The secondary throttle shaft on the Firebird Q-jets had a cutout where the primary rod attached to the secondary rod on the driver's side, which only allowed 3/4 throttle. With a pair of pliers, you could easily bend the secondary lever to get full throttle again. Royal Pontiac even took out ads in magazines stating they could fix your Firebird 400, just call them and they will tell you how.
The 67-68 Firebird 400's were the only cars that were intentionally slowed down to prevent them from running away from a GTO.
Fascinating stuff!
The Firebird 400 was produced from 1967-1969. In 1970, a new model called the Formula 400 debuted, and the Firebird 400 was discontinued.
The engines in the Firebird 400 were the same engines as in the GTO. The only difference was that the Firebirds had better exhaust manifolds. The 67-69 Firebirds were also about 150-250 lbs. lighter than the 67-69 GTO's, they sat lower, and they had less aerodynamic drag than the GTO.
There was pressure from GM about horsepower ratings remaining at 10 lbs of vehicle weight per horsepower (which also helped keep insurance premiums lower), so the GTO was rated at 350 hp, 360 hp, later 366 hp and 370 hp. But GM management was not fooled when Pontiac deliberately underrated the 1967 Firebird 400 at 325 hp (3200-3300 lb car). Pontiac management was also very concerned that the lighter Firebird 400 would steal performance sales away from the GTO.
Pontiac engineers came up with a solution that was acceptable to GM and to Pontiac. They limited throttle travel on the Firebird 400 cars. The secondary throttle shaft on the Firebird Q-jets had a cutout where the primary rod attached to the secondary rod on the driver's side, which only allowed 3/4 throttle. With a pair of pliers, you could easily bend the secondary lever to get full throttle again. Royal Pontiac even took out ads in magazines stating they could fix your Firebird 400, just call them and they will tell you how.
The 67-68 Firebird 400's were the only cars that were intentionally slowed down to prevent them from running away from a GTO.
Fascinating stuff!
March 2nd, 2010, 11:58 AM
#50
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Actually, it's not so much that the Formula 400 debuted as much as it superseded the Firebird 400, especially when the Trans Am became a full-fledged model.
Here's the Firebird/GTO motor list, as what was quoted above is not quite accurate:
1967
base 400: 325/350
HO: not available/360
Ram Air: 325 (not a mistype)/360
1968
base 400: 330/350
HO: 335/360
Ram Air I: 335/360
Ram Air II: 340/366
1969
base 400: 330/350
400HO/RAIII: 335/366
RAIV: 345/370
Here's the Firebird/GTO motor list, as what was quoted above is not quite accurate:
1967
base 400: 325/350
HO: not available/360
Ram Air: 325 (not a mistype)/360
1968
base 400: 330/350
HO: 335/360
Ram Air I: 335/360
Ram Air II: 340/366
1969
base 400: 330/350
400HO/RAIII: 335/366
RAIV: 345/370
March 2nd, 2010, 12:05 PM
#51
Hmmmm...just got an e-mail back from my friend. I'm getting a history lesson here!
The Firebird 400 was produced from 1967-1969. In 1970, a new model called the Formula 400 debuted, and the Firebird 400 was discontinued.
The engines in the Firebird 400 were the same engines as in the GTO. The only difference was that the Firebirds had better exhaust manifolds. The 67-69 Firebirds were also about 150-250 lbs. lighter than the 67-69 GTO's, they sat lower, and they had less aerodynamic drag than the GTO.
There was pressure from GM about horsepower ratings remaining at 10 lbs of vehicle weight per horsepower (which also helped keep insurance premiums lower), so the GTO was rated at 350 hp, 360 hp, later 366 hp and 370 hp. But GM management was not fooled when Pontiac deliberately underrated the 1967 Firebird 400 at 325 hp (3200-3300 lb car). Pontiac management was also very concerned that the lighter Firebird 400 would steal performance sales away from the GTO.
Pontiac engineers came up with a solution that was acceptable to GM and to Pontiac. They limited throttle travel on the Firebird 400 cars. The secondary throttle shaft on the Firebird Q-jets had a cutout where the primary rod attached to the secondary rod on the driver's side, which only allowed 3/4 throttle. With a pair of pliers, you could easily bend the secondary lever to get full throttle again. Royal Pontiac even took out ads in magazines stating they could fix your Firebird 400, just call them and they will tell you how.
The 67-68 Firebird 400's were the only cars that were intentionally slowed down to prevent them from running away from a GTO.
Fascinating stuff!
The Firebird 400 was produced from 1967-1969. In 1970, a new model called the Formula 400 debuted, and the Firebird 400 was discontinued.
The engines in the Firebird 400 were the same engines as in the GTO. The only difference was that the Firebirds had better exhaust manifolds. The 67-69 Firebirds were also about 150-250 lbs. lighter than the 67-69 GTO's, they sat lower, and they had less aerodynamic drag than the GTO.
There was pressure from GM about horsepower ratings remaining at 10 lbs of vehicle weight per horsepower (which also helped keep insurance premiums lower), so the GTO was rated at 350 hp, 360 hp, later 366 hp and 370 hp. But GM management was not fooled when Pontiac deliberately underrated the 1967 Firebird 400 at 325 hp (3200-3300 lb car). Pontiac management was also very concerned that the lighter Firebird 400 would steal performance sales away from the GTO.
Pontiac engineers came up with a solution that was acceptable to GM and to Pontiac. They limited throttle travel on the Firebird 400 cars. The secondary throttle shaft on the Firebird Q-jets had a cutout where the primary rod attached to the secondary rod on the driver's side, which only allowed 3/4 throttle. With a pair of pliers, you could easily bend the secondary lever to get full throttle again. Royal Pontiac even took out ads in magazines stating they could fix your Firebird 400, just call them and they will tell you how.
The 67-68 Firebird 400's were the only cars that were intentionally slowed down to prevent them from running away from a GTO.
Fascinating stuff!
March 3rd, 2010, 05:49 PM
#57
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March 3rd, 2010, 07:18 PM
#58
1970 442
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Houston, Texas
Posts: 238
mugzilla,
From a recent e-mail from my friend:
The 67-69 Firebird 400's were an option on the Firebird, and included a boatload of extra equipment. This was similar to what made up the GTO option on the early 64/65 Lemans. When you checked off the "Firebird 400" option, you got a whole bunch of special equipment, including the 400 4-barrel, dual exhaust, special scooped hood, 400 badges, Turbo 400 (or 4-speed) trans, HD cooling, etc. They did not offer the 400 2-bbl in the Firebird 400 during 1967-1969 (unlike the GTO and 442, which were available with a 2-bbl "economy" option). All 1968 and 1969 Firebirds had 160 miles per hour speedometers.
Most people assume adding the "400" style hood and a couple "400" badges make a Firebird 400, but in reality, they had a lot of special equipment and trim. They are nearly impossible to authenticate now without PHS because all the parts are reproduced now to make a clone.
The 67-69 Firebird 400 is far rarer than a 67-69 GTO of this same time period. Roughly, a ratio of about (1) 67-69 Firebird 400 was made to about (4) 67-69 GTO's produced.
Now back to 442's please!
From a recent e-mail from my friend:
The 67-69 Firebird 400's were an option on the Firebird, and included a boatload of extra equipment. This was similar to what made up the GTO option on the early 64/65 Lemans. When you checked off the "Firebird 400" option, you got a whole bunch of special equipment, including the 400 4-barrel, dual exhaust, special scooped hood, 400 badges, Turbo 400 (or 4-speed) trans, HD cooling, etc. They did not offer the 400 2-bbl in the Firebird 400 during 1967-1969 (unlike the GTO and 442, which were available with a 2-bbl "economy" option). All 1968 and 1969 Firebirds had 160 miles per hour speedometers.
Most people assume adding the "400" style hood and a couple "400" badges make a Firebird 400, but in reality, they had a lot of special equipment and trim. They are nearly impossible to authenticate now without PHS because all the parts are reproduced now to make a clone.
The 67-69 Firebird 400 is far rarer than a 67-69 GTO of this same time period. Roughly, a ratio of about (1) 67-69 Firebird 400 was made to about (4) 67-69 GTO's produced.
Now back to 442's please!
March 3rd, 2010, 07:49 PM
#59
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Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: CNJ
Posts: 279
So after weeding through all this (skimming after page 1).
Yes pontiac had HO motors, yes olds did too...
Now can we talk about my absurd perversion to putting a RA V motor in a 71 GTO?
Yes pontiac had HO motors, yes olds did too...
Now can we talk about my absurd perversion to putting a RA V motor in a 71 GTO?
Last edited by marcar1993; March 3rd, 2010 at 08:04 PM.
March 4th, 2010, 10:54 AM
#60
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Since the '71 has Functional Hood Scoop ( very OAI looking)...
Yes ...
March 4th, 2010, 03:28 PM
#61
marcar - make it code 43 green and judge stripes ( doesn't have to say judge just the stripes)
I have heard that dci is making them in aluminum too?? That was about 2 month's ago was reading about it. didnt say or i dont remember about a intake so he must be casting both if it is true.
I have heard that dci is making them in aluminum too?? That was about 2 month's ago was reading about it. didnt say or i dont remember about a intake so he must be casting both if it is true.
March 4th, 2010, 07:49 PM
#62
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Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 2,620
Let me shed some light on this:
When the Firebird was introduced, they had 5 models:
- Firebird with the base OHC
- Firebird with the base V8
- Firebird Sprint
- Firebird HO
- Firebird 400
The standard transmission was a 3-speed, like most muscelcars.
Also, please don't confuse the 400HO with the Firebird HO model, which simply was the 326/350 cid motor (depending on the year) with a 4bbl. This motor was also available on the Tempest/LeMans but didn't have any kind of model designation as how Pontiac packaged the Firebird.
Mugzilla, not sure what Google has to do with anything?
The 67-69 Firebird 400's were an option on the Firebird, and included a boatload of extra equipment. This was similar to what made up the GTO option on the early 64/65 Lemans. When you checked off the "Firebird 400" option, you got a whole bunch of special equipment, including the 400 4-barrel, dual exhaust, special scooped hood, 400 badges, Turbo 400 (or 4-speed) trans, HD cooling, etc. They did not offer the 400 2-bbl in the Firebird 400 during 1967-1969 (unlike the GTO and 442, which were available with a 2-bbl "economy" option). All 1968 and 1969 Firebirds had 160 miles per hour speedometers.
Most people assume adding the "400" style hood and a couple "400" badges make a Firebird 400, but in reality, they had a lot of special equipment and trim. They are nearly impossible to authenticate now without PHS because all the parts are reproduced now to make a clone.
The 67-69 Firebird 400 is far rarer than a 67-69 GTO of this same time period. Roughly, a ratio of about (1) 67-69 Firebird 400 was made to about (4) 67-69 GTO's produced.
Now back to 442's please!
When the Firebird was introduced, they had 5 models:
- Firebird with the base OHC
- Firebird with the base V8
- Firebird Sprint
- Firebird HO
- Firebird 400
The standard transmission was a 3-speed, like most muscelcars.
Also, please don't confuse the 400HO with the Firebird HO model, which simply was the 326/350 cid motor (depending on the year) with a 4bbl. This motor was also available on the Tempest/LeMans but didn't have any kind of model designation as how Pontiac packaged the Firebird.
Mugzilla, not sure what Google has to do with anything?
The 67-69 Firebird 400's were an option on the Firebird, and included a boatload of extra equipment. This was similar to what made up the GTO option on the early 64/65 Lemans. When you checked off the "Firebird 400" option, you got a whole bunch of special equipment, including the 400 4-barrel, dual exhaust, special scooped hood, 400 badges, Turbo 400 (or 4-speed) trans, HD cooling, etc. They did not offer the 400 2-bbl in the Firebird 400 during 1967-1969 (unlike the GTO and 442, which were available with a 2-bbl "economy" option). All 1968 and 1969 Firebirds had 160 miles per hour speedometers.
Most people assume adding the "400" style hood and a couple "400" badges make a Firebird 400, but in reality, they had a lot of special equipment and trim. They are nearly impossible to authenticate now without PHS because all the parts are reproduced now to make a clone.
The 67-69 Firebird 400 is far rarer than a 67-69 GTO of this same time period. Roughly, a ratio of about (1) 67-69 Firebird 400 was made to about (4) 67-69 GTO's produced.
Now back to 442's please!
March 7th, 2010, 09:51 AM
#63
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Posts: 1,308
Let me shed some light on this:
When the Firebird was introduced, they had 5 models:
- Firebird with the base OHC
- Firebird with the base V8
- Firebird Sprint
- Firebird HO
- Firebird 400
The standard transmission was a 3-speed, like most muscelcars.
Also, please don't confuse the 400HO with the Firebird HO model, which simply was the 326/350 cid motor (depending on the year) with a 4bbl. This motor was also available on the Tempest/LeMans but didn't have any kind of model designation as how Pontiac packaged the Firebird.
Mugzilla, not sure what Google has to do with anything?
When the Firebird was introduced, they had 5 models:
- Firebird with the base OHC
- Firebird with the base V8
- Firebird Sprint
- Firebird HO
- Firebird 400
The standard transmission was a 3-speed, like most muscelcars.
Also, please don't confuse the 400HO with the Firebird HO model, which simply was the 326/350 cid motor (depending on the year) with a 4bbl. This motor was also available on the Tempest/LeMans but didn't have any kind of model designation as how Pontiac packaged the Firebird.
Mugzilla, not sure what Google has to do with anything?
A poser could use Goo to appear knowledgeable ...
March 7th, 2010, 03:36 PM
#65
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