Allan R

Ok, I know most of you don't like Fram filters. I have a question though about the applications.

Today I changed the oil in my wife's Saturn (nasty little fire breathing 100hp brute ) and replaced the filter. *Yeah, I know it's not an Olds, but be patient*. Anyway before I installed the new filter I happened to notice I had another new filter for my defunct 1995 Regency Elite (3.8).
I took both of them out of their boxes and compared them side to side, end to end, and matched up the rubber seals. Then I checked the mounting threads. They were identical . But one is labeled as a CPH3613 (saturn) and the other is labeld as CPH3387A (3.8 GM)

What I'd like to know is whether these filters actually are the same, but just labeled different? I couldn't see anything cosmetically different even in the filtering material and side holes in the metal. Any oil filter experts out there? Is there a difference in flow rate or something magical?

I guess I'm more curious to know: Is FRAM pulling a fast one? I am so tempted to use the 3387A next oil change on the Saturn and see what happens. Personally I was shocked the first time I changed my 98's oil. A dinky little filter like that for a V6? I thought I had the wrong part, but no.

Does anyone have an interchange for oil filters to see if this is right?

compedgemarine

from what I can tell from a quick check the one for the GM has an anti-drain valve and the other does not.

Lady72nRob71

Would it hurt to have the ADV in place on the saturn?

compedgemarine

I wouldnt think so. the valve is just there for motors where the filter is mounted upside down so oil will stay in the filter so it is not empty on startup.

Allan R

?? I looked up ADVs after reading your post and they are installed on horizontal mounted filters, not the ones that spin on from below.

So the ADV would be for the Saturn since it has the horizontal mounting. From the limited amount of searching I've done, there's a certain ambivalence about whether its actually needed or not. That filter can't hold much more than a 1/2 cup of oil. Even if it had to refill itself with each start, wouldn't the important thing be that the oil is circulating to the moving parts that need the lube?

Found this really neat exploded view (courtesy of Ea filters) showing the ADV in the filter construction
Oil goes in through the holes and pressure pushes the ADV back to allow flow through the filter. When the engine shuts off, the pressure on the 'dirty' side stops and the oil that's in the filter stays put.


The question would be more would it make any difference to not have ADV in the Saturn? Maybe I can get it exchanged for the right one. That's one thing that most experts agree on: Use the right filter. I just didnt know there was any difference. This whole thing has been enlightening.

380 Racer

Could be different by-pass ratings.

DeltaPace77

Another thing. Even though the two filters may look physically identical, the one with ADV usually has a different thread pitch, and wont screw on to the wrong application.

compedgemarine

there are lots of filters with the same thread size and pitch with different specs so it is mostly just coincedence that he had two with the same thread. in the boat world there are different filters for chevy motors with the same thread. some have the ADV in them for remote filters which are mounted upside down or horizontal.

Aron Nance

I would say the main thing is, in case of engine failure, you wouldn't have a leg to stand on if you didn't use the "right" filter, per application. I speak as an ex-Fram District Manager, circa 1970-1982; back in the day it was considered a pretty good filter, across the board. Personally, I think this is where the WallyWorlds (and others) pushed their purchasing power to the extreme that Fram (and other manufacturers that sold to the MM market) cut corners in many ways, including reduction of sales forces (in the '90's). I speak from experience with Standard Motor Products. They screwed me, badly.

Allan R

Don't forget that Saturn is also a GM brand that was built at Spring Hills TN. The car in question is a 96 fully optioned SL1. I'm guessing that GM used pretty much the same adapter threads in those days; hence the same thread patterns.

Sorry to hear about your misfortune in the industry. I totally get what you're saying about using the right filter, but if the ADV is the only difference I seriously doubt that would make any significant difference in the time it takes to 'refill'. I am going to see if the local parts store will exchange the 3387 for a 3614. It's still NIB.

As far as having no leg to stand on with engine failure? I don't really like the 1.9 SOHC that's in there now. It's prone to head gasket failure, and is a general PITA to do any type of mtce on (eg: replace belt tensioner or alt) because of the tight fits.

I made an oil change drain tool for when removing the filter so it doesn't go all over the CV joint and frame rails. The only good things about this car are: plastic body panels don't get door dings in parking lots, gets fantastic fuel mileage (in the city: 29 winter/35 summer, highway avg 48) and my wife likes it; so I dont have to buy her a new car every few years. It only has 86K miles on it. Bought it new in 96.

DeltaPace77

My Nephew got a 98' 1.9 Saturn a few years ago from a couple elderly ladies with only 16K mi on the clock and already showing signs of head gasket replacement in it's near future. No way he's seeing anything near 40 mpg(US) though. Reason I know about filter thread pitch, is when GM came out with the LS7 7.0 litre dry sump Vette engine, it required an AC PF-48(ADV) filter, insted of the identical looking PF-46 for LS2 6.0 litre models. Couldn't install a PF-46 on the 7.0 litre. As for transverse FWD, they're all a pain to work on. Changed an alternator on a 98' Mercury Sable DOHC and real fun. Also clutches on other FWD cars, and more fun still.

Allan R

98 SOHC right? Our 96 head gasket started leaking (drum roll please...) 1 week after it went off warranty, with only 27K miles on it. (wife doesn't drive much) Saturn said they would 'help'us out. They would pay the gasket cost (about 70 bucks) if we paid labor (about 1200 bucks). So i told them if they couldn't do better than that I'd never buy another car from them. Needless to say, I never bought another car from them. I could tell you other stories about their service that would make your head spin.

The failure point on most of these head gaskets is around the #1 cylinder. It will also cause a problem with fouling the spark plug, fouling the upper 02 sensor and will throw up a check engine light. I ended up throwing in some engine stop leak. It took about 5 cans over 5 oil changes to plug the leak. The upper 02 sensor I've replaced about 3 times now (Bosch - direct fit) at a cost of around 80.00 a pop. Lately I've been more prone to just spraying it with electric contact cleaner and letting it dry. Seems to work.

When his head gasket blows? Ditch the car - its not worth fixing IMO.

On a rough conversion to US gallons, ours gets around 40+ mpg highway and 25 mpg city, depending on the amount of stop/go and how it's driven, which is pretty respectable

Eric Anderson

We have a Trailblazer with the inline 6, anyway the last time I changed the oil the filter p/n changed due to the old on being replaced with one with the ADV. This has a vertically mounted filter so I figured they probably just phased out the the filter without the ADV to streamline manufacturing and distribution, but then I got to thinking about it does the ADV hold oil in the top of the engine instead of it draining back down through the filter?

Allan R

Eric, based on what I've researched on the web after learning about the ADV, it doesn't keep oil in the top of the engine. It just keeps the filter from emptying. Your oil should still drain to the pan and be picked up by the pump to cycle through the engine again. The ADV in most cases appears to be made of a rubber like material that allows 'one way' flow of dirty oil into the filter. It will only drain an amount equal to where the return to engine drain is. So on a vertically mounted filter, it should stay pretty much full. On a side mounted one, it would likely drain to half full. In either case the filter would always have oil in it.

Eric Anderson

I figured it was probably just a deal of it being more cost effective to manufacture and stock 1 filter rather than 2 for the sake of a rubber ring in the filter. On a side note I usually use AC Delco filters and in the case of our Trail Blazer The AC filter is pretty much twice the size lenghthwise than the Fram filter, I don't know if that means anything but I like the looks of the bigger filter better.

Allan R

Yeah, I was shocked to see the size of the filter for my V6 was the same as the one for the IL4. That just makes no sense to me. My Huyundai uses a cartridge filter on it's V6. If I use Fram? It bleeds down. If I use OEM? works perfectly.