Fisher Body Production Codes
April 4th, 2012, 02:31 PM
#1
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Fisher Body Production Codes
At a plant like Fremont, where more than just Oldsmobiles were produced, how were Fiaher Body numbers assigned? Were they assigned sequentially to all cars produced, seperately for each brand, ie. all Buicks, Olds, etc. or were they assigned by each model so that all Cutlasses or 442 would have seperate sequences?
I have not seen this issue discussed before and any insight woulld be greatly appreciated. Thanks.
Randy
I have not seen this issue discussed before and any insight woulld be greatly appreciated. Thanks.
Randy
April 4th, 2012, 10:58 PM
#2
Randy C.
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This is an interesting question and I'm hoping WMachine might step in here and provide his insight. My guess is that they would be separately assigned; Olds would have their body numbers, Pontiac would have their body numbers; etc. I was also thinking that the different body types within each division would have their own body numbers; i.e., the holiday coupes would have their own body number sequence, the sport coupes would have their own body number sequence, and the convertibles would have their own body number sequence.
But this is pure speculation on my part.
I do have two cars ('69 Olds 4-4-2 convertible and a '70 Pontiac GTO hardtop), both built at the Fremont plant. The build date on the 4-4-2 is 05C and its body number is 00308. The build date on the GTO is 10E (5 months and 2 weeks later in 1969) and its body number is 02934. Of course, different model years, different GM divisions - it might be like comparing apples to oranges.
Randy C.
But this is pure speculation on my part.
I do have two cars ('69 Olds 4-4-2 convertible and a '70 Pontiac GTO hardtop), both built at the Fremont plant. The build date on the 4-4-2 is 05C and its body number is 00308. The build date on the GTO is 10E (5 months and 2 weeks later in 1969) and its body number is 02934. Of course, different model years, different GM divisions - it might be like comparing apples to oranges.
Randy C.
April 5th, 2012, 04:56 AM
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Thanks for the response. The reason I'm asking is that I just bought a '70 442 Post coupe built at Fremont with a Fisher Body tag reading 00032 9the lowest # I've ever seen) with a build date of 09B. At the very least it was one of the first ones built. Depending on how munmbers were assigend I wondered if it could be the first 442 Sport Coupe built in Fremont for 1970. I suspect I will never know for sure but I thought it might be interesting trying to reach out to people who might have more inside information on the process.
Randy
Randy
April 5th, 2012, 07:47 AM
#4
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My understanding is that 000001 would be the first car in the first year of the plant...so depending when Fremont opened 000032 (like an odometer that rolled over) would be in the second million. So there could be two 000032s but differentiated by the year code in the tag. Because has there ever been a 7 digit body sequence on a tag ?
So there would be multiple batches of different makes and models with close sequence numbers for identical models but there's no way to tell exactly what # your car falls in terms of model unless you knew the # of batches of your model run and how many were in those batches. For example..the batch your car was made in could have started at 999256...and there could have been prior batches of the model for the 1970 year
So starting at some random # like 332445 they may have made 500 442s holiday coupes in a row, then at 332946 they made 150 post coupes, then at 333097 they made 700 GTOs in a row, then at 333998 they made 400 LeSabres in a row, etc.
Just guessing tho'...but seems logical to me.
So there would be multiple batches of different makes and models with close sequence numbers for identical models but there's no way to tell exactly what # your car falls in terms of model unless you knew the # of batches of your model run and how many were in those batches. For example..the batch your car was made in could have started at 999256...and there could have been prior batches of the model for the 1970 year
So starting at some random # like 332445 they may have made 500 442s holiday coupes in a row, then at 332946 they made 150 post coupes, then at 333097 they made 700 GTOs in a row, then at 333998 they made 400 LeSabres in a row, etc.
Just guessing tho'...but seems logical to me.
Last edited by VikingBlue; April 5th, 2012 at 08:04 AM.
April 5th, 2012, 10:26 AM
#5
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My understanding is that 000001 would be the first car in the first year of the plant...so depending when Fremont opened 000032 (like an odometer that rolled over) would be in the second million. So there could be two 000032s but differentiated by the year code in the tag. Because has there ever been a 7 digit body sequence on a tag ?
So there would be multiple batches of different makes and models with close sequence numbers for identical models but there's no way to tell exactly what # your car falls in terms of model unless you knew the # of batches of your model run and how many were in those batches. For example..the batch your car was made in could have started at 999256...and there could have been prior batches of the model for the 1970 year
So starting at some random # like 332445 they may have made 500 442s holiday coupes in a row, then at 332946 they made 150 post coupes, then at 333097 they made 700 GTOs in a row, then at 333998 they made 400 LeSabres in a row, etc.
Just guessing tho'...but seems logical to me.
So there would be multiple batches of different makes and models with close sequence numbers for identical models but there's no way to tell exactly what # your car falls in terms of model unless you knew the # of batches of your model run and how many were in those batches. For example..the batch your car was made in could have started at 999256...and there could have been prior batches of the model for the 1970 year
So starting at some random # like 332445 they may have made 500 442s holiday coupes in a row, then at 332946 they made 150 post coupes, then at 333097 they made 700 GTOs in a row, then at 333998 they made 400 LeSabres in a row, etc.
Just guessing tho'...but seems logical to me.
That body number is the body sequence number. Starts over every year with every model. The number series should be for just that *exact* model as shown on the body tag. "Post coupe" "GTO" and "LeSabre"s are not models. The tag has exact model, the plant, and the number. So 00032 the number is the 32nd 1970 442 Sports Coupe to go down the line at the Fremont plant.
April 5th, 2012, 12:40 PM
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Kurt,
Thanks for chiming in. That was exactly the information I was looking for. My new project may not have been the first built but it certainly was an early one. I wonder if any earlier numbers still exist?
Randy
Thanks for chiming in. That was exactly the information I was looking for. My new project may not have been the first built but it certainly was an early one. I wonder if any earlier numbers still exist?
Randy
April 5th, 2012, 01:01 PM
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I'm not convinced.
There's a 1970 442 convertible on EBay now with a cowl tag that displays
34467LAN434411
Olds did not make 434,411 442s in 1970, let alone 442 convertibles (made 2933) or Lansing 442s (convertible or otherwise). That plant probably didn't make that many Oldsmobiles of all varieties that year. And remember that at least some 442s had Cutlass cowl tag codes prior to 1970, so there wouldn't have been model specific codes then either.
The above suggests to me that the sequence# does not start anew with 000001 every year for every separate *exact* model.
it seems to suggest that 434,411 isn't for 1970 only and falls somewhere in the continuum of cars built in Lansing from the beginning of the Fisher sequence numbering system at that plant (1434411 or 2434411 or 3434411, etc). Assuming Lansing made more than a million cars before 1970, 434,411 must be at least in the second million
There's a 1970 442 convertible on EBay now with a cowl tag that displays
34467LAN434411
Olds did not make 434,411 442s in 1970, let alone 442 convertibles (made 2933) or Lansing 442s (convertible or otherwise). That plant probably didn't make that many Oldsmobiles of all varieties that year. And remember that at least some 442s had Cutlass cowl tag codes prior to 1970, so there wouldn't have been model specific codes then either.
The above suggests to me that the sequence# does not start anew with 000001 every year for every separate *exact* model.
it seems to suggest that 434,411 isn't for 1970 only and falls somewhere in the continuum of cars built in Lansing from the beginning of the Fisher sequence numbering system at that plant (1434411 or 2434411 or 3434411, etc). Assuming Lansing made more than a million cars before 1970, 434,411 must be at least in the second million
Last edited by VikingBlue; April 5th, 2012 at 01:19 PM.
April 5th, 2012, 01:47 PM
#8
Sammy70 455 Supreme
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Just to add, I have a Freemont built 1970 Olds Cutlass Supreme , sequence no 00891,or it was the 891 Supreme down the line in the last week of Aug 1969
Ted
April 5th, 2012, 01:59 PM
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I'm not convinced.
There's a 1970 442 convertible on EBay now with a cowl tag that displays
34467LAN434411
Olds did not make 434,411 442s in 1970, let alone 442 convertibles (made 2933) or Lansing 442s (convertible or otherwise). That plant probably didn't make that many Oldsmobiles of all varieties that year. And remember that at least some 442s had Cutlass cowl tag codes prior to 1970, so there wouldn't have been model specific codes then either.
The above suggests to me that the sequence# does not start anew with 000001 every year for every separate *exact* model.
it seems to suggest that 434,411 isn't for 1970 only and falls somewhere in the continuum of cars built in Lansing from the beginning of the Fisher sequence numbering system at that plant (1434411 or 2434411 or 3434411, etc). Assuming Lansing made more than a million cars before 1970, 434,411 must be at least in the second million
There's a 1970 442 convertible on EBay now with a cowl tag that displays
34467LAN434411
Olds did not make 434,411 442s in 1970, let alone 442 convertibles (made 2933) or Lansing 442s (convertible or otherwise). That plant probably didn't make that many Oldsmobiles of all varieties that year. And remember that at least some 442s had Cutlass cowl tag codes prior to 1970, so there wouldn't have been model specific codes then either.
The above suggests to me that the sequence# does not start anew with 000001 every year for every separate *exact* model.
it seems to suggest that 434,411 isn't for 1970 only and falls somewhere in the continuum of cars built in Lansing from the beginning of the Fisher sequence numbering system at that plant (1434411 or 2434411 or 3434411, etc). Assuming Lansing made more than a million cars before 1970, 434,411 must be at least in the second million
What I said is true through 1967, and I made the fatal error of assuming it was still true in '70. And it certainly is not! At least at the Lansing plant. I'll have to look into this further, but starting in '68, at least the Lansing plant went to 6 digit numbers that obviously are no longer a straight sequence by model number. I'll have to look into this further now!
April 5th, 2012, 04:57 PM
#10
Sammy70 455 Supreme
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I'm not convinced.
There's a 1970 442 convertible on EBay now with a cowl tag that displays
34467LAN434411
Olds did not make 434,411 442s in 1970, let alone 442 convertibles (made 2933) or Lansing 442s (convertible or otherwise). That plant probably didn't make that many Oldsmobiles of all varieties that year. And remember that at least some 442s had Cutlass cowl tag codes prior to 1970, so there wouldn't have been model specific codes then either.
The above suggests to me that the sequence# does not start anew with 000001 every year for every separate *exact* model.
So, is it possible that behind my car was a 442 and in front of it was a plain Jane Cutlass give or take a few cars?
it seems to suggest that 434,411 isn't for 1970 only and falls somewhere in the continuum of cars built in Lansing from the beginning of the Fisher sequence numbering system at that plant (1434411 or 2434411 or 3434411, etc). Assuming Lansing made more than a million cars before 1970, 434,411 must be at least in the second million
There's a 1970 442 convertible on EBay now with a cowl tag that displays
34467LAN434411
Olds did not make 434,411 442s in 1970, let alone 442 convertibles (made 2933) or Lansing 442s (convertible or otherwise). That plant probably didn't make that many Oldsmobiles of all varieties that year. And remember that at least some 442s had Cutlass cowl tag codes prior to 1970, so there wouldn't have been model specific codes then either.
The above suggests to me that the sequence# does not start anew with 000001 every year for every separate *exact* model.
So, is it possible that behind my car was a 442 and in front of it was a plain Jane Cutlass give or take a few cars?
it seems to suggest that 434,411 isn't for 1970 only and falls somewhere in the continuum of cars built in Lansing from the beginning of the Fisher sequence numbering system at that plant (1434411 or 2434411 or 3434411, etc). Assuming Lansing made more than a million cars before 1970, 434,411 must be at least in the second million
April 5th, 2012, 05:51 PM
#11
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didn't Lansing sequence numbers in 1970 start at 100000, my earliest car is 285XXX (or something like that) built in November. It was not the 185,000th 442 convertible but it may have been the 185,000th A-body that rolled off the assembly line or maybe it was the 185,000th car period.
April 5th, 2012, 07:08 PM
#13
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Appreciate all the ideas. A little more info may help (or not) The vin is 103XXX (don't have the title close at hand) and the build date was 09B. If I understand the rest of it correctly that means the car was built the secomd week of Sept. '69 and was the 3,000th something car off the Fremont assembly line. Correct?
Randy
Randy
April 5th, 2012, 07:18 PM
#14
Sammy70 455 Supreme
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Appreciate all the ideas. A little more info may help (or not) The vin is 103XXX (don't have the title close at hand) and the build date was 09B. If I understand the rest of it correctly that means the car was built the secomd week of Sept. '69 and was the 3,000th something car off the Fremont assembly line. Correct?
Randy
Randy
My build date is 08E-last week in Aug 1969
Sequence number is 100891-891 off line
(last 6 digits of VIN)
Our cars are built very close to each other at the same plant
April 5th, 2012, 08:29 PM
#15
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There's a 1970 442 convertible on EBay now with a cowl tag that displays 34467LAN434411
Olds did not make 434,411 442s in 1970, let alone 442 convertibles (made 2933) or Lansing 442s (convertible or otherwise). That plant probably didn't make that many Oldsmobiles of all varieties that year.
The above suggests to me that the sequence# does not start anew with 000001 every year for every separate *exact* model.
it seems to suggest that 434,411 isn't for 1970 only and falls somewhere in the continuum of cars built in Lansing from the beginning of the Fisher sequence numbering system at that plant (1434411 or 2434411 or 3434411, etc). Assuming Lansing made more than a million cars before 1970, 434,411 must be at least in the second million
Olds did not make 434,411 442s in 1970, let alone 442 convertibles (made 2933) or Lansing 442s (convertible or otherwise). That plant probably didn't make that many Oldsmobiles of all varieties that year.
The above suggests to me that the sequence# does not start anew with 000001 every year for every separate *exact* model.
it seems to suggest that 434,411 isn't for 1970 only and falls somewhere in the continuum of cars built in Lansing from the beginning of the Fisher sequence numbering system at that plant (1434411 or 2434411 or 3434411, etc). Assuming Lansing made more than a million cars before 1970, 434,411 must be at least in the second million
Not all plants produced all models either. So at Lansing production, you could have a Cutlass, Cutlass, Delta 88, Toronado, Cutlass, Ninety Eight, Custom Cruiser, etc sequentially in line. The body number on the cowl tags. The order of production was determined by the Division, build sheet, and demand for product. So Olds would order the bodies from fisher in the amounts and order they planned for build. I actually have a documented picture from Oldsmobile showing cars coming off production directly into their quality control area - in the order they were built and it's just like I said ^^^.
Lansing, Fremont, Framingham, Arlington, Fairfax and Oshawa were the main Olds plants. Only Lansing, Fremont, Arlington and Oshawa produced A body and Vista Cruiser. So Fisher was sending A, B, and C body cars to ALL the production lines at the same time. If you look at Olds production for all models in 1970? The TOTAL Olds model production was 635,473. That breaks down as:
F-85 (includes 6, V8 Cutlass models and 442) 310, 273
Delta 88 120,874
Delta Custom 89,597
Delta Royale 13,249
Ninety Eight 96,294
Toronado 28,520
(source: Oldsmobile - the first seventy five years)
The body sequencing number, to my best information, DOES start again at 000001 with each MODEL YEAR, but not with each model. The cowl tags given to Olds were specific to each body style (f85,Cutlass, Cutlass S, 442, etc). So you won't get sequential cross numbering from Pontiac or Buick. Each of those other divisions would start their body sequence numbers the same way Olds would - but with their own model identifier on the cowl.
So yes, you're right that 1970 production could easily exceed 1 million cars, but not 1 million Oldsmobiles. And the cowl tag numbers were unique to each division. So you could find a Pontiac or Buick somewhere with an identical last 6 number body, but the model on the tag would have started at 000001 for each model year with them also. Just have to check the production records
Ted, your 70 CS being sequence 000891 would indicate it would be one of the first 1970 CS's produced for the model year. Don't forget that back in those days, the factory would shut down production in July, re-tool what they needed and then ramp up production asap to meet delivery quotas to dealers. Production in August of 1969 is correct for early 1970 model year; as the dealers usually unveiled the new model lineups in September. Don't forget, there's a MODEL year, and a CALENDAR year. Your car is built for the MODEL year. CALENDAR year would be more for GM to measure their productivity for a fiscal accounting record.
April 6th, 2012, 04:54 AM
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Allan R
Thanks for all the great detail. It helps a lot.
Sammy,
Interesting that your car was built two weeks before mine (08E v. 09B) at Fremont and yet is body code 891 v. mine at 32. It does suggest that each Olds body type carried a unique sequence. Or, in the alternative, I suppose it could mean the Fisher built mine first but it was actually sent to assembly after yours. What are the last 6 of your vin#
Randy
Thanks for all the great detail. It helps a lot.
Sammy,
Interesting that your car was built two weeks before mine (08E v. 09B) at Fremont and yet is body code 891 v. mine at 32. It does suggest that each Olds body type carried a unique sequence. Or, in the alternative, I suppose it could mean the Fisher built mine first but it was actually sent to assembly after yours. What are the last 6 of your vin#
Randy
April 6th, 2012, 09:57 AM
#18
Sammy70 455 Supreme
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Port Perry, Ontario
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Allan R
Thanks for all the great detail. It helps a lot.
Sammy,
Interesting that your car was built two weeks before mine (08E v. 09B) at Fremont and yet is body code 891 v. mine at 32. It does suggest that each Olds body type carried a unique sequence. Or, in the alternative, I suppose it could mean the Fisher built mine first but it was actually sent to assembly after yours. What are the last 6 of your vin#
Hey Allan, ditto on the thanx Randy gave-as usual,you have gone beyond thorough!
Randy
Thanks for all the great detail. It helps a lot.
Sammy,
Interesting that your car was built two weeks before mine (08E v. 09B) at Fremont and yet is body code 891 v. mine at 32. It does suggest that each Olds body type carried a unique sequence. Or, in the alternative, I suppose it could mean the Fisher built mine first but it was actually sent to assembly after yours. What are the last 6 of your vin#
Hey Allan, ditto on the thanx Randy gave-as usual,you have gone beyond thorough!
Randy
Ted
Last edited by sammy; April 6th, 2012 at 10:02 AM. Reason: To thank Allan
April 6th, 2012, 10:07 AM
#19
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I agree and this would seem to be a pretty good example of why. My car must have been a very early body build, perhaps expecting better demand than there was for that style and the a fairly long delay in the actual trip down the assembly line. Pretty cool stuff
Randy
Randy
April 6th, 2012, 07:45 PM
#20
Sammy70 455 Supreme
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Any pics of your car?
April 7th, 2012, 08:21 AM
#21
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It's still in California where I bought it. It should be arriving by transport around the first of May. I will post pics when it comes off the truck and try to keep everyone up with the progress. I had a 455 and OG trans for it already so they are out being rebuilt now. The car will pretty much go to the body shop as soon as it comes off the truck. After not having a 442 to drive for over twenty years, I'm really looking forward to getting it going.
Randy
Randy
August 24th, 2013, 08:09 PM
#22
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!Hello im new, i have a 1968 cutlass supreme holiday coupe and the rpo build sheet and im still trying to figure out my production number too. this is a prior headrest car think its an early model seq number 119583 does that mean that this is the 19583 fisher body that has came out of the fremont plant or overaul fisher A bodys built that year since the production sequential number starts at 100001 so i have read from other post and web sites.
August 28th, 2013, 06:08 PM
#23
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!Hello im new, i have a 1968 cutlass supreme holiday coupe and the rpo build sheet and im still trying to figure out my production number too. this is a prior headrest car think its an early model seq number 119583 does that mean that this is the 19583 fisher body that has came out of the fremont plant or overaul fisher A bodys built that year since the production sequential number starts at 100001 so i have read from other post and web sites.
I think you're confusing '68 and '69 re headrests. They were optional all year on the '68s.
They became federally mandatory starting in the '69 *calendar* year. The came on all '69s. Until Jan 1st '69, they were a mandatory $16.85 option. After Jan,1st, they were standard equipment. And ironically, starting Jan 1st, the base price was raised $16.85.
August 28th, 2013, 07:40 PM
#24
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X2 what Allan R said. I know, I was there in 70'!
On the Lansing Assembly A body line I saw sometimes the car in front had a Fisher Sequence Number 200 digits higher than the car behind it! I believe that Fisher/Olds assigned the Body Number based on several criteria such as when the car was ordered, area of the county where car was to be delivered too, the ordering dealer I.E. ordered car or for dealer stock, options, and were there assembly parts available to build the car both at Fisher and the Olds Assembly Plant. Think that the Fisher Sequence Number as a tracking number for Quality Control and Warranty charge backs to that Fisher Plant who built the body (from fire wall back to the rear bumper and everything in between).
The VIN and Assembly Plant Build Date tells you when the car was finally "assembled" and in what order it was built during the Production Model Run.
BTW: at Lansing there were three lines, A body, B/C body, and Toro.
On the Lansing Assembly A body line I saw sometimes the car in front had a Fisher Sequence Number 200 digits higher than the car behind it! I believe that Fisher/Olds assigned the Body Number based on several criteria such as when the car was ordered, area of the county where car was to be delivered too, the ordering dealer I.E. ordered car or for dealer stock, options, and were there assembly parts available to build the car both at Fisher and the Olds Assembly Plant. Think that the Fisher Sequence Number as a tracking number for Quality Control and Warranty charge backs to that Fisher Plant who built the body (from fire wall back to the rear bumper and everything in between).
The VIN and Assembly Plant Build Date tells you when the car was finally "assembled" and in what order it was built during the Production Model Run.
BTW: at Lansing there were three lines, A body, B/C body, and Toro.
Last edited by davebw31; August 28th, 2013 at 07:48 PM.
August 29th, 2013, 08:22 AM
#25
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well thanks for the imformation
What exactly are you looking for when you say "production number"? Your Fisher body number will tell you the number of '68 Cutlass Supreme Holiday Coupes that yours is at the Fremont Plant. Technically the Fisher Body number, not the assembly line number, which *could* be different.
I think you're confusing '68 and '69 re headrests. They were optional all year on the '68s.
They became federally mandatory starting in the '69 *calendar* year. The came on all '69s. Until Jan 1st '69, they were a mandatory $16.85 option. After Jan,1st, they were standard equipment. And ironically, starting Jan 1st, the base price was raised $16.85.
I think you're confusing '68 and '69 re headrests. They were optional all year on the '68s.
They became federally mandatory starting in the '69 *calendar* year. The came on all '69s. Until Jan 1st '69, they were a mandatory $16.85 option. After Jan,1st, they were standard equipment. And ironically, starting Jan 1st, the base price was raised $16.85.
August 29th, 2013, 08:55 AM
#26
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Im just trying to figure out how many were exactly made
August 29th, 2013, 08:26 PM
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August 30th, 2013, 05:31 AM
#29
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That figure for 1968 Cutlass Supreme Holiday Coupes is 37,663 and does not include Canadian production.
http://wildaboutcarsonline.com/cgi-b...aldisplayed=50
August 30th, 2013, 06:46 AM
#30
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With respect to VEHICLE production sequence number (as in, the last six digits of the VIN), look at the Assembly Manual. The VIN tags came pre-stamped with the first character (3), the model year, assembly plant, and production sequence number. The second through fifth characters were blank and were to be stamped when a VIN was assigned to a car. This tell me that all Oldsmobiles were sequentially numbered without respect for model, but were separately numbered from other makes at common assembly plants. Yes, I'm aware that Olds started the sequence numbers at different points for some models (like Toros starting at 500001 in 1966, for example) and these break points changed from year to year.
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July 24th, 2013 07:38 PM
